08-10-2012 04:46 PM
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  1. kenzibit's Avatar
    Are you saying you have inside knowledge on the development of a new kernel for both Windows and Windows Phone?
    Maybe....there are MS guys in disguise in here.
    snowmutt likes this.
    08-07-2012 09:05 PM
  2. pjs37's Avatar
    Are you saying you have inside knowledge on the development of a new kernel for both Windows and Windows Phone?
    Yes you caught me red-handed. :rolleyes:

    Or I am just doing what ever single other person here does and comments and speculates based on how MS does things and what they say? I don't operate any under assumption that MS reads these forums or even cares what I or anyone else really says. I just felt like having an interesting discussion about the way MS does its Phone based operating system and in support of the OP's post which is historically so far buying a late gen device running a MS OS has so far not panned out for anyone which is an entirely valid point.
    kenzibit likes this.
    08-07-2012 09:46 PM
  3. AngryNil's Avatar
    I feel like 1st gen owners were served well. Contracts are up (except in Canada!), we keep our purchases and move to a better platform. However, my Lumia 800 does seem slightly dejected - while you can argue that Android isn't (much) better, Windows Phone was never about matching Android.
    snowmutt likes this.
    08-07-2012 11:53 PM
  4. kenzibit's Avatar
    I feel like 1st gen owners were served well.
    Exactly and the main reason why I started this thread. Just wanted a general point of view because I'm really going to get a first gen WP8 device because I fear if I get a second gen phone, I might use it for a very short time since I might not be able to upgrade to WP9....Same thing happening now and MS will definetly repeat this again no matter what they say now to console us, no doubt..they are now known for this.

    Contracts are up (except in Canada!), we keep our purchases and move to a better platform. However, my Lumia 800 does seem slightly dejected - while you can argue that Android isn't (much) better, Windows Phone was never about matching Android.
    I guess you people are even lucky to be on contracts...at least you get to change your phones or buy heavy specs phones at a very low price....seriously cheap. Place yourself in my shoes where your country even doesn't support carrier based phones and contracts. You have to buy phones with the price they come with....****ing expensive.
    I think most of us in this situations are not very lucky therfore I get very angry when I buy an expensive phone which loses it's support and love too early. My HTC HD7 is almost 2 years and thought I could use this phone for years (maybe 5) but...will be forgotten very soon and I can't use a phone whereby I don't get new apps and system updates. So I'll say you guys are very lucky to be on Contracts, you get to change your phones every 2 years? wow.....it's life saving for you guys.
    08-08-2012 03:44 AM
  5. eric12341's Avatar
    ^actually buying phones on contract here costs more in the long run than just buying them outright
    08-08-2012 05:41 AM
  6. cp2_4eva's Avatar
    I'm beginning to side with Kenzbit on this one. I'm a fairly new WP device owner. I jumped on the Lumia 900 the first day it came out. This was my very first WP device. and here it is August and they are already talking about WP8 this fall. What is a man to do? I feel like I got juked a bit and I can imagine others feel the same way. Before I even bought the Lumia I was trying to do all my research on whether or not these devices would get WP8. After countless forum threads and whatnot, I was almost certain that my device would get it. And now this......7.8. It's a step up yes, but is it WP8? Nope. But we really don't even know how much of a gap there will be between the two.
    kenzibit likes this.
    08-08-2012 08:12 AM
  7. jimski's Avatar
    My HTC HD7 is almost 2 years and thought I could use this phone for years (maybe 5) but...will be forgotten very soon and I can't use a phone whereby I don't get new apps and system updates.
    So you want to use your phone for 5 years. No problem. You also want to continue to get support and updates for those 5 years. Problem. No one ever promised that. And why can't you "use" your phone after October 26th?

    Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express Pro
    Kredrian likes this.
    08-08-2012 09:16 AM
  8. N8ter's Avatar
    6.5 to 7 was only a partial reboot and the NT kernel wasn't compatible with ARM at the time or else they would've done it then. The Greg Sullivan interview explains this.
    It was a complete reboot. They changed the entire UI and software stack rendering WM 6.5 development tools and applications instantly and pretty much completely incompatible. The fact that they use the same kernel (or rather, the latter uses an updated version of the same kernel to be more specific) is inconsequential.

    That is why the OS capabilities dropped miles going from 6.5 to 7. Not even Microsoft could easily port that stuff over themselves.
    08-08-2012 10:52 AM
  9. eric12341's Avatar
    I'm beginning to side with Kenzbit on this one. I'm a fairly new WP device owner. I jumped on the Lumia 900 the first day it came out. This was my very first WP device. and here it is August and they are already talking about WP8 this fall. What is a man to do? I feel like I got juked a bit and I can imagine others feel the same way. Before I even bought the Lumia I was trying to do all my research on whether or not these devices would get WP8. After countless forum threads and whatnot, I was almost certain that my device would get it. And now this......7.8. It's a step up yes, but is it WP8? Nope. But we really don't even know how much of a gap there will be between the two.
    7.8 is WP8 without all the hardware intensive features, they just didn't call it 8 because well it technically isn't. For what it's worth we don't even know what all is included in WP8 so of course we aren't going to know about 7.8
    08-08-2012 12:58 PM
  10. kenzibit's Avatar
    So you want to use your phone for 5 years. No problem. You also want to continue to get support and updates for those 5 years. Problem. No one ever promised that. And why can't you "use" your phone after October 26th?

    Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express Pro
    I agree with you that nobody promised that but at least I should even get a long lasting support even if I'm not getting major system updates. Just look at our android folks, phones with Froyo (very old version of Android) are still getting new released apps for even the ICS & will definitely get the ones for JB updates even though they were not able to upgrade to gingerbread....is it because of the same kernel they using? I always say this, although MSFT has promised support and everything for WP7.8, I still believe it wouldn't last more than WM 6.5. I agree with MSFT about the decisions made and the way forward but the truth is clear, this is a switched Kernel which will drive all app developers to WP8 and aparently WP7.8 WIll be neglected....and the baddest thing is WP7.8 not being able to run WP8 apps.....all wouuld have been perfect for most of us if that was possible coz I'll still get newly released apps just like the way android froyo is getting everything on the android OS. It's all about support my brother.
    08-08-2012 03:59 PM
  11. kenzibit's Avatar
    7.8 is WP8 without all the hardware intensive features, they just didn't call it 8 because well it technically isn't. For what it's worth we don't even know what all is included in WP8 so of course we aren't going to know about 7.8
    No...No...No...No...you can't really say that because we don't know what 7.8 is bringing. Have thought about MS finding it difficult to bring some features to 7.8 because it's just too difficult with the the 7.8 kernel? All is not about Hardware intensive features, it's about the ease of porting the new system features to the old kernel....which is kind of difficult ....and you know MSFT wouldn't bother themselves too much with those problems, they are moving forward and they will like us to come along.
    cp2_4eva likes this.
    08-08-2012 04:16 PM
  12. HeyCori's Avatar
    I agree with you that nobody promised that but at least I should even get a long lasting support even if I'm not getting major system updates. Just look at our android folks, phones with Froyo (very old version of Android) are still getting new released apps for even the ICS & will definitely get the ones for JB updates even though they were not able to upgrade to gingerbread....is it because of the same kernel they using?
    Pretty much. Android has gotten stronger, faster and smarter but the core of the OS remains pretty much the same. The other factor that is that many devs still program for Gingerbread. Some devs do make apps that won't run on older versions of Android, that's why Google implemented a compatability check for the Android market. Another reason I think devs still focus on Gingerbread is because, according to Intel, dual core is "wasted on Android." I think most don't see a reason to program for dual core if the OS doesn't take good advantage of it.
    kenzibit likes this.
    08-08-2012 04:30 PM
  13. eric12341's Avatar
    I agree with you that nobody promised that but at least I should even get a long lasting support even if I'm not getting major system updates. Just look at our android folks, phones with Froyo (very old version of Android) are still getting new released apps for even the ICS & will definitely get the ones for JB updates even though they were not able to upgrade to gingerbread....is it because of the same kernel they using? I always say this, although MSFT has promised support and everything for WP7.8, I still believe it wouldn't last more than WM 6.5. I agree with MSFT about the decisions made and the way forward but the truth is clear, this is a switched Kernel which will drive all app developers to WP8 and aparently WP7.8 WIll be neglected....and the baddest thing is WP7.8 not being able to run WP8 apps.....all wouuld have been perfect for most of us if that was possible coz I'll still get newly released apps just like the way android froyo is getting everything on the android OS. It's all about support my brother.
    If an android app is developed for gingerbread and above it will not run on froyo, also certain Android phones can't run certain apps due to screen size and resolution.
    08-08-2012 05:18 PM
  14. blehblehbleh's Avatar
    Yes you caught me red-handed. :rolleyes:

    Or I am just doing what ever single other person here does and comments and speculates based on how MS does things and what they say? I don't operate any under assumption that MS reads these forums or even cares what I or anyone else really says. I just felt like having an interesting discussion about the way MS does its Phone based operating system and in support of the OP's post which is historically so far buying a late gen device running a MS OS has so far not panned out for anyone which is an entirely valid point.
    Sorry for being a bit obtuse. Your argument has merit and there is nothing definitive to say that MS couldn't go ahead and make an entire kernel or whatever change come WP9 or later, but I would say that not factoring the context of what MS is trying to do right now and in the near future with their products as a whole is a bit shortsighted.
    08-08-2012 09:17 PM
  15. pjs37's Avatar
    To be fair I think its extremely unlikely that Windows Phone 9 will be the same level of what Windows Phone 8 is; however that does not mean MS will not make some weird reason why WP8 devices cannot be upgraded to WP9. In terms of the topic the author is right: Buying an early gen device means when you are eligible for an upgrade the new OS will be coming out soon; I would say it is hazardous to buy a Windows Phone within a year of an expected major OS update if you know about it and care about such things.

    Now all that being said I think what we will see actually is the end of major Windows Revisions. I think you will see something similar to that of iOS with many evolutionary updates to the OS both Windows RT and Windows Phone 8. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if they drop the 8 and just call it Windows Phone. This would replace the current MS system which is a major new overhaul every few years with a few minor updates to the existing system. I think updates are more important to more end users now than ever before. People at work who I talk to completely non-technical users know about things like how Apple is dumping Google Maps for a custom in house system; or they ask me about when their Androids are getting updates like how iPhone does. Apple changed the paradigm and MS would be foolish to ignore it IMO.

    Overall I am actually fairly excited at the changes Windows is bringing. I know many people don't but between MS Surface and Windows Phone and those features coming to Windows Desktop (Which Apple did as well with Lion and people thought that was brilliant MS does it and of course its a stupid idea now) The big changed next generation we will probably see if a unified SDK that build off of each platform WP being the base with more stuff to support Windows RT and more stuff for Windows 8 Pro.
    kenzibit likes this.
    08-09-2012 07:16 AM
  16. HeyCori's Avatar
    To be fair I think its extremely unlikely that Windows Phone 9 will be the same level of what Windows Phone 8 is; however that does not mean MS will not make some weird reason why WP8 devices cannot be upgraded to WP9.
    Microsoft did promise minimum 18 months of updates for WP8 phones. Factor in development time for the next update (whether it's WP9 or WP10), and you're looking at two years of updates before WP8 reaches EOL. Then I think those upcoming 3rd gen devices will face a similar situation to what we have now with 7.8, meaning that 3rd gen devices will only receive a partial update. And the people that really get screwed are those that buy a 3rd gen device near the end of the 18 month cut-off. Sounds brutal but still a bit better than Android. Microsoft is trying to ensure that all of their products receive some sort of update, whereas Android handset makers still cherry pick what phones they will update. Some Android phones will receive updates for a year+ and some get EOL way early.
    kenzibit and eric12341 like this.
    08-09-2012 08:18 AM
  17. pjs37's Avatar
    Yeah its hard saying because WP8 is such a leap in terms of what the phone can do I can't imagine what WP9 would bring to the table. My only concern with how MS is doing WP8 is that they are putting features in that clearly developers are going to want and develop for that will not work in WP7.8 such as In App Purchases. That is a HUGE deal for App developers and is what brings in the buck-o bucks. The fact that there is no plans for MS to make this work in WP7 is abysmal. Just because you say you support something does not necessarily mean it gets the support it deserves.
    kenzibit likes this.
    08-09-2012 08:41 AM
  18. kenzibit's Avatar
    Yeah its hard saying because WP8 is such a leap in terms of what the phone can do I can't imagine what WP9 would bring to the table. My only concern with how MS is doing WP8 is that they are putting features in that clearly developers are going to want and develop for that will not work in WP7.8 such as In App Purchases. That is a HUGE deal for App developers and is what brings in the buck-o bucks. The fact that there is no plans for MS to make this work in WP7 is abysmal. Just because you say you support something does not necessarily mean it gets the support it deserves.
    Exactly and this is my concern and why I started this thread. I'm glad you understand me perfectly.
    08-09-2012 03:00 PM
  19. AngryNil's Avatar
    Just look at our android folks, phones with Froyo (very old version of Android) are still getting new released apps for even the ICS & will definitely get the ones for JB updates even though they were not able to upgrade to gingerbread....
    Going off the top of my head, so don't quote me on this. If the developer targets ICS-specific functionality, the app won't work on FroYo devices. Backwards compatibility is not guaranteed, Chrome for Android is not available for pre-ICS builds. It's also a problem on Android that the devices "left behind" will not get all the security enhancements of the latest versions of Android. It's just messy to roll out security updates for 2.2.5 on this device, then 2.3.4 on that one, etc.

    Then I think those upcoming 3rd gen devices will face a similar situation to what we have now with 7.8, meaning that 3rd gen devices will only receive a partial update.
    Why would that happen, and why would the situation be anywhere similar? There are very few WP8 features which our devices are incapable of running, it's more to do with porting annoyances and the kernel shift. Neither will be problems for WP9 that Microsoft will be able to hide behind.

    To those saying "oh, they could do it again" - no, they haven't changed the kernel up to this point and there's no reason for them to switch again. It's what all their products are going to be running.
    Last edited by AngryNil; 08-09-2012 at 03:37 PM.
    eric12341 likes this.
    08-09-2012 03:30 PM
  20. HeyCori's Avatar
    Why would that happen, and why would the situation be anywhere similar? There are very few WP8 features which our devices are incapable of running, it's more to do with porting annoyances and the kernel shift. Neither will be problems for WP9 that Microsoft will be able to hide behind.
    In two years time a company like HTC might have 5-6 (maybe even more) WP8 devices spread out across several markets, and probably 2-3 next gen phones in the pipeline. That's a considerable amount of work for Microsoft to update all those phones plus updating all the Samsung's phones, Nokia's phones, and various WP8 OEMs. The OEMs also have to do their part as well but also have to focus on their Android devices too. It's not so much a technical issue as it is a workload issue. But that's just my guess.
    08-09-2012 04:03 PM
  21. pjs37's Avatar
    To be honest an 18 month support cycle is fair. I think it is a bit much to expect all WP8 devices to run WP9 but the problem is what is their view of "support" and if it will be the same "support" they are showing for late generation WP7 devices...which beyond the start screen is not much else.
    08-09-2012 06:52 PM
  22. blehblehbleh's Avatar
    In two years time a company like HTC might have 5-6 (maybe even more) WP8 devices spread out across several markets, and probably 2-3 next gen phones in the pipeline. That's a considerable amount of work for Microsoft to update all those phones plus updating all the Samsung's phones, Nokia's phones, and various WP8 OEMs. The OEMs also have to do their part as well but also have to focus on their Android devices too. It's not so much a technical issue as it is a workload issue. But that's just my guess.
    Isn't that why MS has a fairly strict hardware spec that oem's must follow in the first place? There's not a mass differentiation in hardware like PC's.
    08-09-2012 07:12 PM
  23. HeyCori's Avatar
    Isn't that why MS has a fairly strict hardware spec that oem's must follow in the first place? There's not a mass differentiation in hardware like PC's.
    True, and yet look at the update fiasco with NoDo on the Samsung Focus 1.3 and 1.4. Small changes, big problems.
    08-09-2012 08:13 PM
  24. blehblehbleh's Avatar
    True, and yet look at the update fiasco with NoDo on the Samsung Focus 1.3 and 1.4. Small changes, big problems.
    If I remember correctly that was Samsung's fault for going beyond the spec requirements without approval. MS was kind enough, or rather forced to, configure NoDo for that.

    Whether that happens again is uncertain, sure, but I wouldn't doubt that MS would ensure that there isn't a repeat.
    08-10-2012 03:22 AM
  25. AngryNil's Avatar
    In two years time a company like HTC might have 5-6 (maybe even more) WP8 devices spread out across several markets, and probably 2-3 next gen phones in the pipeline.
    If Microsoft can't support 5-6 devices from each of the four manufacturers, it should give up now. I understand WP8 devices may not get WP9, but it won't be the same as the WP7 to WP8 jump.

    I don't buy the workload issue. If Microsoft's mobile efforts continue to stumble along, sure. If Windows Phone becomes a success and turns in a profit, then they should put more resources behind it. Get the manufacturers to step in more (if they don't already), Microsoft releases the generic update and the manufacturers do the work. There are limited launch partners, so it seems Microsoft can control this.
    Last edited by AngryNil; 08-10-2012 at 06:23 AM.
    08-10-2012 06:18 AM
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