08-29-2012 08:47 PM
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  1. Reflexx's Avatar
    Let's be realistic. Samsung, HTC, and Nokia are not innovators. As hyped up Apple's reputation may be, a company like Samsung being in the same sentence as "innovation" makes me laugh.
    Nokia has been innovating for decades.

    Their history is full of innovative handsets.
    palandri likes this.
    08-26-2012 12:32 AM
  2. Retro_uk's Avatar
    There is a quote floating around from one of the jurors where they said they skipped some vital areas. Here is the quote:

    Samsung had provided evidence of what they believed to be prior art, to show that Apple's patents were invalid. The jury deliberated this at length, but then rather interestingly, eventually decided to skip this evidence, because it bogged them down:

    "After we debated that first patent -- what was prior art --because we had a hard time believing there was no prior art, that there wasn't something out there before Apple. In fact we skipped that one so we could go on faster. It was bogging us down".

    What?! This is critical evidence that the jury skipped, just because it was "difficult" to go through. This point is likely to form an important part of Samsung's appeal and it's right and proper that it does so.


    Safe bet that will be brought to notice when Samsung appeal.
    08-26-2012 01:56 AM
  3. Joelist's Avatar
    There is a quote floating around from one of the jurors where they said they skipped some vital areas. Here is the quote:

    Samsung had provided evidence of what they believed to be prior art, to show that Apple's patents were invalid. The jury deliberated this at length, but then rather interestingly, eventually decided to skip this evidence, because it bogged them down:

    "After we debated that first patent -- what was prior art --because we had a hard time believing there was no prior art, that there wasn't something out there before Apple. In fact we skipped that one so we could go on faster. It was bogging us down".

    What?! This is critical evidence that the jury skipped, just because it was "difficult" to go through. This point is likely to form an important part of Samsung's appeal and it's right and proper that it does so.


    Safe bet that will be brought to notice when Samsung appeal.
    I would think so. In fact that quote is going to pretty much seal the deal for Samsung on appeal as it is proof the jury did not consider the evidence in their deliberations.
    08-26-2012 03:21 AM
  4. scottcraft's Avatar

    Other than S Beam and Pureview, these are all minor features that the OEMs did not even necessarily innovate or freshly introduce to Android OS.

    There were/are dozens of apps that add gimmicky gesture features to phones. I'm confident the music player "stop" gesture has even been around since Symbian. Are you sure there isn't an app for taking video stills?

    Apple pioneered a significant portion of the touchscreen GUI. That its contributions are compared to unoriginal, little features added by OEMs like Samsung is rather unfair.
    I will say that innovate might be the wrong word to use. Yes some of the features of the GS3 have been used by others before, S Beam is one of them and you are probably right about the stop gesture too. Their might be a third party app for taking a still shot during a video, but the GS3 and HTC One X can do it with the built in camera app. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that Samsung put all of these features in the GS3 that were not in the GS2, so it seems to me that they are doing a lot of things to separate their phones from the pack. From all of the rumors I've heard Samsung has improved from the GS2 to the GS3 more than Apple will have improved the iPhone from the 4S to the new iPhone.

    In regards to the touchscreen GUI I have read in various threads on an Apple forum that many of the features of the touchscreen were used in other phones prior to the iPhone. I'm not going to preach that as gospel because I don't have links with me, but the posts I have read provided links.
    08-26-2012 05:15 AM
  5. dtristan111's Avatar
    This lawsuit will not kill Android at all. It will force Google to innovate even more leaving iOS behind. Remember Google has that crazy sci-fi Google X lab and learning from Apples lawsuits they are surely going to patent everything. Plus they now also have Motorola's patent portfolio so the lawsuits from Google to Apple are coming in no time.

    Microsoft and Nokia's patent portfolios are huge as well.

    So if Apple continues to make lawsuits they will get crushed by lawsuits coming in their direction.
    08-26-2012 08:17 AM
  6. palandri's Avatar
    Nokia has been innovating for decades.

    Their history is full of innovative handsets.
    Plus innovation with software if you look at the Nokia Beta Labs web page.
    08-26-2012 08:27 AM
  7. GoodThings2Life's Avatar
    Are you freaking kidding me?! You're going to call Apple innovative just because they took the Windows 3.1 Program Manager concept of icons in a grid layout and made them look "pretty"? Oh wait, Blackberry had been doing that for years minus the pretty hardware, and everyone from Palm to Microsoft had touchscreens and such long before.

    Apple is no different than any other company... they see an idea, they improve on it and claim it new and revolutionary. Every company does this, and every company comes up with some genuinely new ideas too. You don't get to claim one side is true while ignoring all the others.

    Anyway, I still think this helps Microsoft in the long run, because I think Apple's "revolutionary" updates are behind them, and I think Google is going to continue to leave it up to the OEMs to defend themselves. That makes Microsoft very appealing, but as others have stated... ONLY if they can really generate some excitement with Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8.

    This is Microsoft golden opportunity, and I'm excited to see if they'll take it.
    08-26-2012 08:44 AM
  8. GoodThings2Life's Avatar
    There is a quote floating around from one of the jurors where they said they skipped some vital areas. Here is the quote:

    [I]Samsung had provided evidence of what they believed to be prior art, to show that Apple's patents were invalid. The jury deliberated this at length, but then rather interestingly, eventually decided to skip this evidence, because it bogged them down:

    "After we debated that first patent -- what was prior art --because we had a hard time believing there was no prior art, that there wasn't something out there before Apple. In fact we skipped that one so we could go on faster. It was bogging us down".
    Safe bet they use that, indeed! This is absolutely ludicrous, and had Judge Koh been responsible, she'd have tossed their ruling out.

    Apple has, as others have stated, a long history of running head-first into a battle in the market, and yet in spite of having armed themselves with flashy weapons, they always get their butts handed to them in the long run. So what do they do? They turn and run to courts for help.

    Apple has a very long history of not being able to get the job done when Steve Jobs isn't running the show, and this is just history repeating. It will not serve them well long term.

    However, as I've suggested elsewhere, this sets precedence for Samsung and other OEM's to reconsider whether Google Android is the right direction for them. Google won't save them, and they're paying money to Microsoft anyway... why not skip the middle man and go back to Microsoft?
    08-26-2012 08:54 AM
  9. crystal_planet's Avatar
    This lawsuit will not kill Android at all. It will force Google to innovate even more leaving iOS behind. Remember Google has that crazy sci-fi Google X lab and learning from Apples lawsuits they are surely going to patent everything. Plus they now also have Motorola's patent portfolio so the lawsuits from Google to Apple are coming in no time.

    Microsoft and Nokia's patent portfolios are huge as well.

    So if Apple continues to make lawsuits they will get crushed by lawsuits coming in their direction.
    Oh Lord, let it be so. I'm so tired of Cook thumping his chest every time a lawsuit is launched by Apple and his "That'll teach em to steal from us!" rants. I'd love to read some his emails in response to incoming litigation.

    Apple used to be the innovative little guy that the public couldn't help but root for - especially against the evil empire that is Microsoft. Now they have proven themselves to be just another greedy corporate entity bent on world domination.

    I love it.
    08-26-2012 09:52 AM
  10. sentimentGX4's Avatar
    This lawsuit will not kill Android at all. It will force Google to innovate even more leaving iOS behind. Remember Google has that crazy sci-fi Google X lab and learning from Apples lawsuits they are surely going to patent everything. Plus they now also have Motorola's patent portfolio so the lawsuits from Google to Apple are coming in no time.

    Microsoft and Nokia's patent portfolios are huge as well.

    So if Apple continues to make lawsuits they will get crushed by lawsuits coming in their direction.
    You are wrong. The bulk of Motorola, Samsung, and Nokia's patent portfolio are useless FRAND patents. These are industry standard patents that MUST be licensed at a reasonable rate.

    Samsung and Google are abusing their FRAND portfolios and are under probes from a number of governments. (As a non industry no worker, you probably don't realize how horrified and angry other companies are at Samsung or Google for using FRAND in litigation.)

    Read here for more info:
    http://mobile.theverge.com/2012/6/30/3127315/ftc-reportedly-investigating-google-over-motorolas-use-of-frand
    http://www.fosspatents.com/2012/06/googlemotorola-reportedly-being.html?m=1
    http://mobile.theverge.com/2012/2/16/2786970/FRAND-smartphone-industry-apple-motorola-samsung

    What will be the repercussions? No one is certain; but if found guilty, it is guaranteed there will be serious antitrust lawsuits. So as you can see, Samsung and Google are actually biding their time with these lawsuits since the legal process moves so slowly relative to technology.
    Last edited by Sentimentgx4; 08-26-2012 at 12:01 PM.
    08-26-2012 11:55 AM
  11. threed61's Avatar
    You are wrong. The bulk of Motorola, Samsung, and Nokia's patent portfolio are useless FRAND patents. These are industry standard patents that MUST be licensed at a reasonable rate.

    Samsung and Google are abusing their FRAND portfolios and are under probes from a number of governments. (As a non industry no worker, you probably don't realize how horrified and angry other companies are at Samsung or Google for using FRAND in litigation.)

    Read here for more info:
    FTC reportedly investigating Google over Motorola's use of FRAND patents | The Verge
    FOSS Patents: Google/Motorola reportedly being investigated by the FTC for suspected FRAND abuse
    FRANDs forever: how the smartphone industry turned a gentlemen's agreement into a full-scale patent war | The Verge

    What will be the repercussions? No one is certain; but if found guilty, it is guaranteed there will be serious antitrust lawsuits. So as you can see, Samsung and Google are actually biding their time with these lawsuits since the legal process moves so slowly relative to technology.
    Motorola and Nokia have created, not innovated, more mobile tech and software than Apple could ever dream of. Anti-trust laws don't apply companies who try to gouge with frand patents. They apply to companies who engage in anti-competitive and monopolistic behavior. Like say a company that controls 90% on the high end personal computer and music player market, 70% of the tablet market and is trying to force competitors out of the smartphone market. Oh yah, and makes price fixing arrangements with book publishers. That would be the company who should worry about anti-trust lawsuits.
    08-26-2012 12:16 PM
  12. danialgoodwin's Avatar
    Here's something I wrote on Google Plus and Facebook:

    So, Apple recently won a patent lawsuit against Samsung because Samsung's tablets are the same as Apple's iPads..

    Let me say that again in bold letters: Apple has proved successfully in court that there is no distinct difference between their product and Samsung's product.

    What does that mean for you, the consumer? You can get the same products from Samsung for half the price...
    This decision does not significantly affect Windows. Windows will need to do more of their innovations in order to stand out.

    And, by the time this appeal is over, pretty much all Androids will already have the new sue-proof OS's and manufactures will have their lawyer designed phones.
    08-26-2012 12:18 PM
  13. threed61's Avatar
    Apologies to Danny for getting a little off the thread subject.
    08-26-2012 12:36 PM
  14. hoovermac's Avatar
    Not a patent attorney, but have had experience as an expert witness. These cases can drag on for years, and it's likely this one will, as both sides have deep pockets. It will be interesting to see how it affects the vendors, and it (hopefully) should make non-android OS's more attractive! Time will tell with the impending launch of major new platform updates.
    08-26-2012 12:39 PM
  15. HeyCori's Avatar
    08-26-2012 12:46 PM
  16. suvastallions's Avatar
    As Snowmutt says, the appeals process will take time.The court's decision does not result in an immediate cessation of sales of Samsung androids phones or suddently make the OEMs contemplate running to MS. I've read a lot of news features, opinion pieces and blogs coming out in the aftermath of the verdict and the majority agree that Samsung has a strong case for appeal.

    Samsung still has the biggest market share for smartphones, and not matter what happens in the courts or what dumb jurors are doing, phones are still being made, shipped and sold.

    For WP I would prefer that the OS wins for what it is - an excellent OS, rather than scavange the scraps from the Apple vs Samsung wars.
    08-26-2012 03:48 PM
  17. suvastallions's Avatar
    Let's be realistic. Samsung, HTC, and Nokia are not innovators. As hyped up Apple's reputation may be, a company like Samsung being in the same sentence as "innovation" makes me laugh.
    This is true if you live on Mars.
    08-26-2012 03:54 PM
  18. GoodThings2Life's Avatar
    I'm sorry, did you really just cite "The Verge" as a legitimate news source?

    And I don't know anything about FOSS Patents as a source, but I have to assume by the name that it's a open-source biased site.

    Look, I'm not trying to shoot your ideas down... you actually have valid points, so don't do yourself a disservice by quoting The Verge. :)
    08-26-2012 08:17 PM
  19. fatclue_98's Avatar
    No one is more lawsuit concise that MS. My point being that when OEMs look at where to go in the future weighing the choices between WP and Android I would think this makes WP look more attractive. Android is a free/ was a free OS to use in devices but OEMs are now having to pay to use it with ZERO legal supprot from Google. When I say zero I mean google doesn't support the OEMs in there legal battles with cash. Microsoft charges for its OS and as the provider of the OS is responsible for making sure that all contained in the OS is it own intellectual property. MS will be the one getting sewed not the OEMs. Put those together I would think the OEM would rather pay an up front charge on the OS (they are going to pay anyways it seams) and get the backing of MS. Microsoft must first put out an OS that proves popular and sales phones.
    Do you really think the average consumer knows or even cares about lawsuits, intellectual property rights or any of that? If MS wants to be the Mac Daddy again in the smartphone arena, it needs to put out a product that resonates with users. They need a real marketing team to advertise but above all else, they need a gimmick. I don't mean a 2-for-1 sale gimmick, I mean an app or feature that no one has or has done well. Right now, my gut tells me they have to push WP8 & Windows 8 integration and milk it til' it moos. OTA syncing between all your devices would be huge since you wouldn't have to fiddle around with USB cables and such. Fire up your phone or Surface and the same information is already there. Whaddaya think?
    GoodThings2Life likes this.
    08-26-2012 08:24 PM
  20. gregoron's Avatar
    Apple = innovative is baloney. Jobs just knew how to sell something as complicated as a PC or mobile phone to the masses and sold them well he did. Then they patented a lot of that "innovative" features because tech geeks like MSFT, Motorola, and Blackberry were thinking these are basic stuff that they tech inclined consumers took for granted. They missed out on the marketing hype that Apple scored on with the iPhone when it allowed just about anyone can finally operate a smartphone. But, what did Apple really bring to the table other than a marketing platform to make smartphones more accessible to the public. If there's innovation in Apple, it's their patent lawyers who brought it.
    08-27-2012 04:41 AM
  21. dtristan111's Avatar
    News after the court decision:
    - Samsung shares drop $12 billion(!), that is 7.5%
    - Nokia shares jumped for 10% !

    Nokia jumps on hopes it can cash in on Samsung setback | Reuters

    Samsung shares drop $12 billion after Apple's court victory | Reuters

    About Google having only FRAND patents, I think that is simply untrue. There are 2 lawsuits Motorola vs. Apple in which 11 patents are mentioned. In the first lawsuit Moto used 4 patents and 3 were cleared and 1 is still not. The new lawsuit of 7 patents is still unclear.

    ITC remands decision on Motorola vs Apple to judge
    ITC clears Apple of infringement of three Motorola patents, holds decision on fourth - Apple Business - Macworld UK

    Well if Moto, Google and Samsung (with appeal on this decision) loose then I'm quite sure Android will be shelved by 2014-15. Remember Microsoft is making money of it (Android is actually more expensive for phone manufacturers then Windows Phone license!), there is still Oracle trying to make money out of it (check link below). Meanwhile Google has its Chrome OS, Samsung is involved in Tizen with Intel and if things go bad for Android I think one of those OS-es will replace it. Google was simply naive with Android, I think that they won't make the same mistake with a new OS.

    Oracle and Google meet again to discuss rangeCheck code | ZDNet

    EDIT:
    Some info about the new lawsuit Moto vs. Apple:
    http://www.theverge.com/2012/8/17/32...itc/in/2572477
    Last edited by dtristan111; 08-27-2012 at 07:35 AM.
    palandri likes this.
    08-27-2012 07:07 AM
  22. X0LARIUM's Avatar
    08-27-2012 08:15 AM
  23. GoodThings2Life's Avatar
    News after the court decision:
    - Samsung shares drop $12 billion(!), that is 7.5%
    - Nokia shares jumped for 10% !

    ...

    Google was simply naive with Android, I think that they won't make the same mistake with a new OS.
    Heh, well the changes is stock shares would suggest how the investors feel about the matter. Unfortunately, overall market standings are far too volatile for any long-term predictions.

    However, if it really comes down to it that Android falls apart, I don't think that OEMs will be quick to embrace Google going forward... whether it's Chrome OS or something else. "Fool me once, shame on you, but fool me twice, shame on me" and what-not.
    08-27-2012 04:38 PM
  24. MrBurrrns's Avatar
    Apple = innovative is baloney. Jobs just knew how to sell something as complicated as a PC or mobile phone to the masses and sold them well he did. Then they patented a lot of that "innovative" features because tech geeks like MSFT, Motorola, and Blackberry were thinking these are basic stuff that they tech inclined consumers took for granted. They missed out on the marketing hype that Apple scored on with the iPhone when it allowed just about anyone can finally operate a smartphone. But, what did Apple really bring to the table other than a marketing platform to make smartphones more accessible to the public. If there's innovation in Apple, it's their patent lawyers who brought it.
    You are just trolling if you are suggesting that the the iPhone and the iPad were not industry revolutions. They completely changed the market and they did it over and over again. They might not cure cancer but innovative they are.
    08-27-2012 05:41 PM
  25. GoodThings2Life's Avatar
    You are just trolling if you are suggesting that the the iPhone and the iPad were not industry revolutions. They completely changed the market and they did it over and over again. They might not cure cancer but innovative they are.
    Agreed, and yes, that's coming from a guy who HATES Apple and their products. I have a lot of reasons for why I loathe them so much, but I can't deny the impact they've had in moving technology forward.
    MrBurrrns likes this.
    08-27-2012 06:18 PM
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