05-11-2013 11:52 AM
123 12345
tools
  1. Chregu's Avatar
    Yes, you bought your shiny Lumia 800/900 weeks before WP8 was announced and you're angry there's nothing new for it. We get it. But that's just one of the risks you took when choosing to becoming an Early Adopter.
    I have seldom read such a terrible remark.

    Sorry, but Windows Phone 7 was out for two years, before Microsoft changed everything with Windows Phone 8. When do you think do we stop being early adopters? That's just no excuse, or will you be all right if they do it all again in two years? Because we are early adopters?

    I don't use the words I'd like to use right now, so I'll let it be at this.
    02-27-2013 08:52 AM
  2. MinnesotaSteve's Avatar
    I am a software developer. I have contributed to OS development (RTOS). Can you please explain to me how that is a valid reason? You might sight budget limitations, but IMHO there is no technical reason that stands in the way of that update occurring, you need only consider that both WP7 and WP8 run on ARMv7 based CPU's.
    I'm a software developer as well, and agree. The only difference is the WP8 phones use a Snapdragon S4 which is dual or quad core, whereas the Snapdragon S2 used in the WP7 phones is only single core.

    I'm guessing that the concern was CPU speed. People have commented that even with the faster processor WP8 is still slower than WP7.

    Regardless, I thought it was a bonehead move to not provide some upgrade path for say the Lumia 900.

    Meanwhile the iPad2 I bought about 6 months prior to my Lumia 900 just got yet another app update a couple of weeks ago, and while some of the new features of iOS6 aren't available... it hasn't been completely abandoned.

    I honestly regret not getting the iPhone now. I actually was looking into development on the windows phone just when they announced the abandonment campaign, which put a damper on that.
    02-27-2013 10:28 AM
  3. Delin95's Avatar
    I wouldn't mind buying a new phone, if I could transfer all my wp7 data over to my new wp8 device.
    02-27-2013 11:41 AM
  4. a5cent's Avatar
    I'm guessing that the concern was CPU speed. People have commented that even with the faster processor WP8 is still slower than WP7.

    Regardless, I thought it was a bonehead move...
    Hey Steve! In one of my previous posts in this thread, I mentioned (and indirectly linked) a video from Microsoft Research, which demonstrated that MinWin runs faster than WCE on identical ARM hardware. Hardware limitations were not the reason... neither compatibility nor performance.

    Differences in perceived performance are mostly due to the much "heavier" but also much more capable .NET runtime environment. Its presence is most noticeable during runtime initialization, which occurs each time a managed app is launched.

    I don't think the move was bone headed though. I don't think it is fair to make that judgment without understanding their reasons.

    Obviously, I understand your frustrations to a degree. I think Microsoft's biggest screw up, is that they were not upfront and transparent about their update policy. They knew before WP7 launched it wouldn't get the WP8 update, and they should have let you know too. Unfortunately, they still aren't explaining their update policy.
    Last edited by a5cent; 02-27-2013 at 05:21 PM. Reason: Spelling
    02-27-2013 03:53 PM
  5. akar33's Avatar
    I am a software developer. I have contributed to OS development (RTOS). Can you please explain to me how that is a valid reason? You might sight budget limitations, but IMHO there is no technical reason that stands in the way of that update occurring, you need only consider that both WP7 and WP8 run on ARMv7 based CPU's.

    That is like saying an OS that runs on Ivy Bridge (2012 x86 CPU model) can't run on a Sandy Bridge (2011 x86 CPU model). It's friggen' ridiculous. Logically, it's the exact same CPU, one of them is just somewhat faster at executing the exact same instructions. Sorry for picking on you. I've just seen this utter BS repeated once to often. Nothing personal.
    You are right. The kernel can most definitely run on a WP7 era hardware, but it was most likely a cost decision and the benefits vs. cost debate is a huge one in a software development company. Also, moving forward, carrying on the CE kernel from 1995 wasn't a good option for the maturity of the OS. The NT kernel can offer more extensibility and it's most likely the only kernel that's being continuously developed and improved upon at Microsoft. And, merging the kernel from the Windows tree is always beneficial for the OS. The main reason iOS is so good is because it runs on the same kernel as OSX, which in turn is based on a Unix kernel.
    02-27-2013 07:44 PM
  6. a5cent's Avatar
    You are right. The kernel can most definitely run on a WP7 era hardware, but it was most likely a cost decision and the benefits vs. cost debate is a huge one in a software development company. Also, moving forward, carrying on the CE kernel from 1995 wasn't a good option for the maturity of the OS. The NT kernel can offer more extensibility and it's most likely the only kernel that's being continuously developed and improved upon at Microsoft. And, merging the kernel from the Windows tree is always beneficial for the OS. The main reason iOS is so good is because it runs on the same kernel as OSX, which in turn is based on a Unix kernel.
    Software is a highly tractable medium. It can be made to do anything you want it to. In that sense, I don't really understand what people mean when they say the NT kernel is more extensible than CE. I find that too unspecific for me to agree or disagree with.

    CE has always run on more CPU architectures than Windows. It still does. CE7 supports up to 256 cores while W8 supports "only" 64. Just considering those two things, and assuming extensible relates to hardware, CE7 sounds more "extensible" to me than W8.

    The thing is, barely a single consumer has a working understanding of software. Without a background in software engineering it just isn't palpable. As a result, many will desperately try to relate any OS related decision to hardware. That isn't how it works.

    The main concerns that lead Microsoft to dump CE were software related. One of Microsoft's top priorities was to make it as easy as possible to port apps between WP8 and W8RT. That only works if the .NET runtime environments on both of those operating systems work identically. Unfortunately, CE's .NET runtime environment is a very stripped down version of its larger sibling. Making both of them 100% compatible (and keeping them compatible) is an extremely difficult and costly affair. That isn't feasible. The better option was to bring the entire Windows .NET runtime over to WP. However, the Windows .NET runtime makes direct calls into MinWin, so MinWin had to be brought over as well. The Windows kernel is part of MinWin, so that is how it too ended up on WP. Hardware extensibility doesn't factor into any of this.

    it was most likely a cost decision and the benefits vs. cost debate is a huge one in a software development company.
    Absolutely, but that too wasn't the main reason. Think of a gaming console, and how updates are handled in that space and why. If you understand why the update policies in that space are the way they are, and the benefits they offer (to OS and 3rd party developers), then you will also understand what Microsoft was thinking with WP.
    02-27-2013 11:01 PM
  7. unstoppablekem's Avatar
    I'm still using a WP7 device, and I've gotten a bunch of new apps lately. I got Assassin's Creed and Earthworm Jim games a couple weeks ago. I just got Foroplex today, Angry Birds Seasons is also available.WhatsApp got the latest updates.
    Wait lak, so you don't have a wp8 device, only a 7 device?


    Sent from my iSheep Tablet 3 using WPCentral Forums app
    02-28-2013 12:03 AM
  8. MinnesotaSteve's Avatar
    I don't think the move was bone headed though. I don't think it is fair to make that judgment without understanding their reasons.

    Obviously, I understand your frustrations to a degree. I think Microsoft's biggest screw up, is that they were not upfront and transparent about their update policy. They knew before WP7 launched it wouldn't get the WP8 update, and they should have let you know too. Unfortunately, they still aren't explaining their update policy.
    It probably didn't matter much. Had we known at the time the Lumia 900 was a dead product before it was even released, nobody would have bought it. So while they created a lot of ill-will, they were able to prop up their numbers slightly for a few months even if in the long run they created a lot of ill will with current owners. It's the classic innovators dilemma I guess.

    Microsoft needs to get their stuff together. Firing the advertising group responsible for the horrid Surface commercials would be a start.
    02-28-2013 11:17 AM
  9. DBDev's Avatar
    I don't think it's dead yet but it's dying rappidly. For example many live tiles in 7.8 are not working and MS don't seem to care. It is also not as fun reading news here on WPCentral anymore because most of the apps they write about don't work on my Lumia 800 :(
    03-01-2013 01:02 AM
  10. gedzum's Avatar
    I don't think it's dead yet but it's dying rappidly. For example many live tiles in 7.8 are not working and MS don't seem to care. It is also not as fun reading news here on WPCentral anymore because most of the apps they write about don't work on my Lumia 800 :(
    Yeah I agree. Not quite dead, but certainly an after thought. It's a shame really, because I really like my Lumia 800 hardware. The Lumia 800 section in the forum also isn't as active anymore, which is expected along with more focus on the WP8 stuff on this site. Still, can't help but feel slightly out of the loop. I might check out the 720 for my next device.
    03-01-2013 04:55 AM
  11. FinancialP's Avatar
    I just think Nokia and Microsoft aren't on the same page. Nokia is still pumping out a ton of WP7 devices that are cost effective and more profitable for Nokia. Meanwhile Microsoft has abandoned ship.
    03-01-2013 10:50 AM
  12. WasteSomeTime's Avatar
    Nokia doesn't have to produce affordable WP 7 devices because the old WP 7 are available now for a low price. I thought they would just produce low budget WP 8 phones like the lumia 620.
    Sent from my SGH-i677 using Foroplex
    03-01-2013 08:34 PM
  13. trwrt's Avatar
    I thought I read somewhere that the Adreno 205 GPU that was in most WP7 phones isn't capable of supporting DirectX 11, or Direct3D feature level 9_3 or whatever it is that WP8 uses. So, right there is one way that the hardware is incapable of supporting it. That doesn't mean that MS couldn't have chosen a different baseline to include the WP7 devices, but as it stands I'm not sure it's correct to say that the Lumia 900 for example could run WP8 if MS would only supply it.
    03-02-2013 01:15 AM
  14. WasteSomeTime's Avatar
    There is still no point for Nokia to produce WP 7 devices. This may cause people to dislike MS even more, since " new " adopters of WP 7 will find out that they have been abandoned right from the start.
    Sent from my SGH-i677 using Foroplex
    03-02-2013 02:22 AM
  15. FinancialP's Avatar
    There is still no point for Nokia to produce WP 7 devices. This may cause people to dislike MS even more, since " new " adopters of WP 7 will find out that they have been abandoned right from the start.
    Sent from my SGH-i677 using Foroplex
    There is a point. Its more profitable for Nokia, as the parts are drastically cheaper. If you read Nokia financials, you'll see that Nokia actually sells more WP7 devices than WP8.
    03-02-2013 01:05 PM
  16. iggypop120's Avatar
    yeah its dead. im no longer in love with my trophy. id like to get rid of it as soon as i can get an alternative no matter the OS
    03-03-2013 12:15 AM
  17. tqlla3k's Avatar
    WP7 is dead. Geniuses at MSFT ran all those huge promotions to get people to use the WP7.... then they abandoned those customers less than a year later. Literally their entire base was abandoned because keeping their WP7 userbase "wasnt an efficient use of resources"

    Does MSFT think those users age going to come back to WP8, after they were abandoned halfway through their 2 year contract? The new apps dont even work with WP7, and when new apps are updated, old WP7 apps are removed. WP7 is DEAD. WP8 will sink fast without the WP7 base. Good job microsoft.
    03-05-2013 09:16 AM
  18. a5cent's Avatar
    Being dead would imply that WP7 is supported neither by Microsoft nor any of the manufacturers, that not a single WP7 app is ever again updated, that not a single new WP7 app is released, and that not a single new WP7 device is sold, none of which is true:

    • WP7.8 isn't the best possible OS update people could have hoped for, but it is an update. Unfortunately, that update has caused some problems, but Microsoft is working on fixing it. That wouldn't happen if WP7 were dead.
    • Nokia continues to release updates to their apps for WP7; not dead
    • Just today, WPC published an article announcing a new app for WP7, the BBC iPlayer; WP7 gets new apps every day; not dead
    • WP7 devices are still being sold all over the world; not dead

    Even the statement that WP7 is dying is a tad overdramatic. If that is true, then WP8 is dying too, because every consumer product is headed towards the end of its shelf life! There is no switch that flips WP7 from "alive" to "dead". That transition is a long and drawn out process. That process has started, but we are still much closer to the beginning of that process than we are to its end.

    The most dangerous bullet heading towards WP7 is a lower priced WP8 device. The Lumia 520 is likely to be that device, but it has yet to reach the market. That is much more important than the availability of OS updates, because most consumers aren't like the people on this forum. The masses care much more about cost than they do about the availability of updates.
    Last edited by a5cent; 03-05-2013 at 12:37 PM.
    03-05-2013 12:20 PM
  19. a5cent's Avatar
    ...WP7 phones isn't capable of supporting DirectX 11, or Direct3D feature level 9_3 or whatever it is that WP8 uses. So, right there is one way that the hardware is incapable of supporting it. That doesn't mean that MS couldn't have chosen a different baseline to include the WP7 devices, but as it stands I'm not sure it's correct to say that the Lumia 900 for example could run WP8 if MS would only supply it.
    How do you think Apple supports older hardware three generations back? No difference for WP. The OS uses whatever hardware is available. WP8 certainly doesn't contain anything that couldn't run on WP7 hardware. Apps may require certain hardware capabilities, but that is handled via the app store, as those apps simply aren't offered to people with weaker devices.
    03-05-2013 12:34 PM
  20. dba415's Avatar
    It's pretty dead. The silver lining though is that there were never any apps to begin with for windows phone so it doesn't feel that much different. I'm surprised Twitter even updated their app for WP7.
    03-05-2013 01:01 PM
  21. rdockrey's Avatar
    I have had Android phones for a long time and just recently had the Galaxy S3. I never could get used to carrying it due to the size of the phone. My daughter broke her phone so I gave her the S3 and went looking for something else. I am with US Cellular and decided to try a Windows 7 phone and if I liked it I would get a Win 8 if or when US Cellular decided to carry it. I picked up a brand new HTC Pro 7 off of Ebay for a good price, update it to 7.8 using the disconnect trick, and couldn't be more happier with it. You are much more constrained with it then Android and it lacks some features but I am very, very happy with it and will move to a Win 8 phone when I can. I know I am late to the game with it but it does what I need it too and found the apps I wanted so life is good.
    03-05-2013 01:22 PM
  22. a5cent's Avatar
    I am very, very happy with it and will move to a Win 8 phone when I can. I know I am late to the game with it but it does what I need it too and found the apps I wanted so life is good.
    Ultimately, that is the only argument that matters.

    Those stating "WP7 is dead" are either drama queens or just mentally challenged.
    03-05-2013 02:05 PM
  23. tqlla3k's Avatar
    I thought I read somewhere that the Adreno 205 GPU that was in most WP7 phones isn't capable of supporting DirectX 11, or Direct3D feature level 9_3 or whatever it is that WP8 uses. So, right there is one way that the hardware is incapable of supporting it. That doesn't mean that MS couldn't have chosen a different baseline to include the WP7 devices, but as it stands I'm not sure it's correct to say that the Lumia 900 for example could run WP8 if MS would only supply it.
    "To do the work to bring all of those elements to a platform that can't exploit them wasn't necessarily the most efficient use of resource."

    There you have it. It could be done, but it didnt make sense for them to spend time or resources on supporting their user base. So they abandoned their user base AGAIN. The new apps are not even compatible with WP7.

    The worst part is, due to the nature of their parallel development of WP7/WP8, they knew they were going to abandon WP7 users. They are run by idiots. They spend countless marketing dollars getting people to board the WP7 ship, a ship they knew would sink. After we swim to shore, do they think we want to get on another Microsoft boat? What was the point of that?
    03-05-2013 02:21 PM
  24. tqlla3k's Avatar
    Being dead would imply that WP7 is supported neither by Microsoft nor any of the manufacturers, that not a single WP7 app is ever again updated, that not a single new WP7 app is released, and that not a single new WP7 device is sold, none of which is true:

    • WP7.8 isn't the best possible OS update people could have hoped for, but it is an update. Unfortunately, that update has caused some problems, but Microsoft is working on fixing it. That wouldn't happen if WP7 were dead.
    • Nokia continues to release updates to their apps for WP7; not dead
    • Just today, WPC published an article announcing a new app for WP7, the BBC iPlayer; WP7 gets new apps every day; not dead
    • WP7 devices are still being sold all over the world; not dead

    Even the statement that WP7 is dying is a tad overdramatic. If that is true, then WP8 is dying too, because every consumer product is headed towards the end of its shelf life! There is no switch that flips WP7 from "alive" to "dead". That transition is a long and drawn out process. That process has started, but we are still much closer to the beginning of that process than we are to its end.

    The most dangerous bullet heading towards WP7 is a lower priced WP8 device. The Lumia 520 is likely to be that device, but it has yet to reach the market. That is much more important than the availability of OS updates, because most consumers aren't like the people on this forum. The masses care much more about cost than they do about the availability of updates.
    1) You can get WP8 devices free with Contract. Sounds pretty low price to me.
    2) WP 7.8 took an extremely long time, and all it added was the ability to resize tiles. They couldnt even do that without introducing a major bug.
    3) The Data usage bug has been known for a month and MSFT is just now "considering a fix". They must have one intern working on WP7. s/he probably tests their own code.

    The real killer of WP7, is the inability to use WP8 apps. There were already too few apps for WP7, do you think developers outside of MSFT are going to develop new apps for both WP7 and WP8?... have they been?
    03-05-2013 02:34 PM
  25. a5cent's Avatar
    1) You can get WP8 devices free with Contract. Sounds pretty low price to me.
    1) The price of those "free" smartphones is just hidden in the carriers monthly service costs, making U.S. carriers the most expensive in the world. U.S. consumers are essentially just buying their smartphones on credit. Nothing is ever free.
    2) Most people in the world buy their devices off contract. If you're assuming that most of the world's phone markets work as in western Europe or the U.S. you would be completely wrong.
    3) I don't know about the U.S. , but in Europe pay-as-you-go plans are very popular. For consumers thinking about that approach, the unsubsidized upfront cost of a device is a major factor. That is precisely the reason the Lumia 800 has been the most successful Lumia smartphone to date.

    WP7 remains successful, primarily due to its great price/performance ratio, and despite the apps issue.

    2) WP 7.8 took an extremely long time, and all it added was the ability to resize tiles. They couldnt even do that without introducing a major bug.
    3) The Data usage bug has been known for a month and MSFT is just now "considering a fix". They must have one intern working on WP7. s/he probably tests their own code.
    Dead means "you get nothing". Clearly, WP7 owners are getting something, so clearly it is not dead. Whether you like what you are getting is an entirely different matter.

    The real killer of WP7, is the inability to use WP8 apps. There were already too few apps for WP7, do you think developers outside of MSFT are going to develop new apps for both WP7 and WP8?... have they been?
    Yes, they have been. An app targeted at WP7 can also run on WP8. Since WP7 devices outnumber WP8 devices, developers have a large incentive to stick with WP7 for the time being. It's about money. I can't say for sure, but that is very likely the approach the BBC took with their recently released iPlayer app, which runs on both.

    I'm not saying every app will run on WP7, but many will, and that will continue for quite some time.

    Calling WP7 dead is just a silly over dramatization. It may no longer appeal to enthusiasts, but that isn't the same thing as being "dead".
    Last edited by a5cent; 03-05-2013 at 05:24 PM. Reason: Spelling
    Cleavitt76 likes this.
    03-05-2013 03:33 PM
123 12345

Similar Threads

  1. When is Windows Phone Central 156 coming?
    By Hiiiiiiiii in forum Site Feedback & Help
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-17-2013, 04:32 AM
  2. Why is Windows Phones third-party support so bad? NO EXCUSE!
    By Ratchet clank in forum Microsoft News & Rumors
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 01-07-2013, 01:12 PM
  3. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 09-19-2012, 05:13 AM
  4. Is Windows Phone putting all its eggs in the Nokia basket?
    By Mitlov in forum Upcoming & Rumored Phones
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 04-14-2012, 09:17 PM
  5. Is Windows Phone 7 worth waiting for?
    By mtg1974 in forum Windows Phone 7
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 11-14-2010, 07:02 PM
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD