Warranty - Does the developer preview void it?

anony_mouse

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The PDP is "authorized" simply because it is not an unauthorized hack. It is published by Microsoft, the creator of the OS.

Speaking as someone who is not a lawyer, and has no direct experience of warranties, but does regularly deal with legal issues in the course of my job - I don't find that argument convincing.

The fact that software comes from Microsoft doesn't automatically make it authorised by Nokia, in my interpretation. Furthermore, the licence to the software (from Microsoft) specifically says that it may cause irreparable harm to your phone, and obviously this is more likely with preview software than a finished, tested (by Nokia) product.

Nokia may not be able to get out of repairs to faults clearly not caused by the software (e.g. broken power button), but if this software e.g. fried the processor by running it too hot, I don't believe Nokia would have any liability under the warranty. Of course, they might still choose to offer a repair for goodwill reasons.

In your view, what software would count as authorised, and what as unauthorised?

Btw, I am ignoring the point that Microsoft now own Nokia's phone business, which might or might not change things.
 

hopmedic

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Speaking as someone who is not a lawyer, and has no direct experience of warranties, but does regularly deal with legal issues in the course of my job - I don't find that argument convincing.

The fact that software comes from Microsoft doesn't automatically make it authorised by Nokia, in my interpretation. Furthermore, the licence to the software (from Microsoft) specifically says that it may cause irreparable harm to your phone, and obviously this is more likely with preview software than a finished, tested (by Nokia) product.

Nokia may not be able to get out of repairs to faults clearly not caused by the software (e.g. broken power button), but if this software e.g. fried the processor by running it too hot, I don't believe Nokia would have any liability under the warranty. Of course, they might still choose to offer a repair for goodwill reasons.

In your view, what software would count as authorised, and what as unauthorised?

Btw, I am ignoring the point that Microsoft now own Nokia's phone business, which might or might not change things.
Microsoft's disclaimer is simply the by-product of too many lawyers in America. And since Nokia phones are now Microsoft phones, it doesn't matter - the update came through authorized channels, so how can it be unauthorized?

That without going into the fact that I have experience with managing warranties, and I have experience replacing my Nokia phone under warranty while running a preview, even before Microsoft acquired Nokia's devices and services.
 

Kaushik Dash

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So after contact Nokia through online chat. They decided to cancel my warranty cause I was running Dev Preview. I showed the guy this topic but he came up with Dev Preview document that says "It MAY void your warranty." I told them that article what 4.7 says but they kept saying that so I gave up.

I am gonna try to roll back to 8.0 and have my device fixed. The problem is getting ridiculous.
 

dudeskee1325

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Yes. I just did that now. I'm not saying 100% it works for everyone, but it worked for me. Some people in the forums claim to have bricked their phones. Well, I don't know what they did to get that, but as for me, it works perfectly.
Are you able to go from dev preview to the final product once the OTA update goes out?
 

hopmedic

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Are you able to go from dev preview to the final product once the OTA update goes out?

When the final product comes out, people will be upgrading to what you have, not the other way around. You'll already have it. You will get the firmware updates like Lumia Cyan (assuming you have a Lumia) which you don't already have, however.
 

Al4video

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Funny thing I went to the Microsoft store last week and purchased a screen protector for my 1520. I had it installed there . They are very nice about that and no charge. So a week later it developed some slight air streaks under it, so yesterday I brought it in to see what they could do about it. The young lady that was helping me took a look at my phone and the first thing she noticed was Cortana on my home screen. And she instantly said "oh we can't do anything with phones with dev preview installed".
I really laughed out loud as I was wondering what does that have to do with a screen protector. So I didn't get angry I just jokingly asked her if the screen protector would be easier to come off if I reverted back to 8.0 and that I would be willing to do that just for her.
At that moment she realized the error of her ways and that she was probably reciting a script too closely.
So she called another "expert" over and he took one look and got another screen protector off the rack and very pleasantly replaced it at no charge.
That was a real funny incident but I have to say my experiences in the Microsoft Store have been nothing but stellar.
Very different then the head up your *** experiences I used to have with the Apple "genuises".
 

Paul Verizzo

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I know this is an old post, but here is what I've done on three Nokia 925's: Reset to latest official SW via Nokia Updater before sending it in. The latest official SW as of this date, FYI, is the official TMO 925 8.1 Update.
 

Deepak

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Here, on the first page it's stated that Warranty is not applicable for - 1.) USER GUIDES.

I want to get a replacement for my Lumia 830 arrived just 3 days ago because it's screen has popped-out from the top side (it was like that already). I have all the components of the original packaging box including their protective plastic bags.

What I don't have is, the included User Guides and the Wireless charging pamphlet. I lost them.
So, will they accept my replacement claim if I don't have all the paper components?

Please suggest asap. I have already registered my claim.

Thank you.
 

mprebich

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Warranty. How is it affected? Everyone seems to have a different story. Some say that Nokia reps told them that it's voided if they use PDP (and yes, some have provided documentation of this claim). I have actually had my 928 replaced under warranty while running PDP with GDR3. Did I just get lucky? Who's right and who's wrong?

Keep in mind that the warranty that I am discussing here is for a US device, and I do not know how this warranty may differ from the warranty in other countries, as laws vary, but I would venture to guess that most of them are materially the same.

Who am I to say?
For several years, I worked at one of the largest insurance companies in the world. I worked in a department that managed extended warranties, most of my time dealing specifically with electronics warranties, and a part of my tenure dealing with home warranties. I started out on the phones taking calls from customers just like you, who were calling in with problems with their computers and such, and wanted that problem to be fixed under the warranty. I can tell you from that perspective that my primary job was to minimize expense. If I could find a way to turn down every single claim, my boss would have loved me (more than he did - :wink:). But the warranty is a contract, and it is a contract that goes two ways. There are responsibilities for the user as well as the warranty company. For example, the user has to use his device in a way that is not considered misuse or abuse. The company, in-turn, has a responsibility to repair covered items.

After one year on the job, I was promoted to Customer Relations. In that position, I only dealt with angry or dissatisfied customers. In other words, I only dealt with customers whom we'd already told their claim was not covered. It was my job to research the reason for the declination, research the reason of the failure, and determine whether we correctly declined the claim or if the declination should be reversed. I had the final say on whether a claim would be paid or not. There was no appeal above me. So I hope from this you can gather that I know very well how to read a warranty and understand what is required of the company.

Warranty - What is it?
Now that you know from what experience I'm talking, let's take a look at the warranty. Here it is, photographed from the booklet for my 928.

First two pages:
View attachment 63045
Note the highlighted portion. This tells you what is covered. The main device, the battery, the charger - basically the hardware that comes in the box.

Next two pages:
View attachment 63050
Note the highlighted section - What this warranty does not cover. You should always read this section before trying to make a warranty claim on any device. This is where you will learn what will keep you from getting the warranty repair. Look at section 7, highlighted.

By installing the Preview for Developers, did you hack or crack? Is it a virus or other malware? Was your access to this service unauthorized? No. Therefore this provision of the contract does not apply. I believe, though, that this is what the low-level customer service types on Twitter and other social media are referring to (if they are referring to anything at all) when they say that the PDP is not covered. They are not reading it with understanding.

Paragraph 10 I suppose could also be a source of confusion. It says that all the software that comes on the phone is considered Nokia software. That would include the OS, and yes, the Univision app that I always delete first. It says that this software, the OS and all apps that come with it, including upgrades and updates, is not warranted to meet your requirements, run apps you want to run, work with any other software or hardware (That BT headset? Yeah - there's no warranty that it will work with the phone. That's what this means.). (continued on next image)

Next two pages:
View attachment 63053
It also says near the top that they don't warrant that the software included will work (operation uninterrupted, error free, or defects will be corrected or are correctable). So basically, it says that the software on the phone may stop working, may not be fixable, and isn't covered. In other words, they don't cover software under the warranty. Only the hardware is covered. It also says that the software is provided "as-is." In other words, software is not covered. See a theme here?

Nokia will make their software available for reinstall (latest version - so don't count on older version availability) if there is a software problem that is covered.

What will void the warranty? Look at the highlighted section at the bottom of page 30, and the top of page 31, items 1 through 4.
This warranty is not valid if: (paraphrased)
1. Your product has been opened, modified (this is talking hardware), repaired without Nokia's authorization, or repaired with unauthorized spare parts. Broke your screen and replaced it with one you got from eBay? You no longer have a warranty.
2. Your product's serial number or IMEI has been removed, erased, defaced, altered, or illegible. I would imagine that these numbers are present somewhere inside even phones without removable batteries (I could be wrong), but they are present in the firmware when you look in settings | about | more info. So you stole a phone (yeah, I know - you found it), and it couldn't be reactivated because the IMEI is bad, so you reflashed it (which is illegal in the US) with a new number, right? No warranty.
3. Your product was exposed to moisture or extreme thermal or environmental conditions, corrosion or oxidization. You were at Yellowstone and dropped your phone into one of those really pretty hot bath things (I've never been there)? Your warranty is void.
4. The software your product runs on has been modified. Ah, here's another place where those customer service types are mis-reading. Ok - so technically when you do PDP, you're modifying the software that the phone runs on, right? Well, there are two outs for that. First, the change is authorized. And second, if you can put the original software back on (I haven't done this, but I've seen lots talk about reflashing with the original image from Nokia's site (I don't remember the name of it)), and the problem still exists, then you're covered. Remember, if this clause is taken literally as it is written, official updates void the warranty. This clause is talking about hacking the OS.

Last two pages:
View attachment 63059
The rest of the warranty language.

So here's what it boils down to. Is it a hardware failure or a software failure? If it is a hardware failure, what is the cause? If it is a software failure, then it isn't covered anyway, updated with PDP or not. If it is a hardware failure, did software cause the problem? Misuse? Abuse? Not covered. Is it a hardware failure that is unrelated to software, misuse or abuse, or any of the other exclusions? Then you're covered.

Remember, folks, this warranty is a legally binding contract, not some seat-of-the-pants, run-on-a-whim decision that some customer service level person gets to pick and choose. If the warranty is declined, they have to be able to tell you which of the exclusions was used in the declination, and if you're not satisfied with the answer, go up the ladder, and into a court room if need be. Don't buy into the "it's not covered" mantra without doing your homework.


Excellent write-up. I just found this after some questions were posted about whether the W10M TP violates the warranty in the US carrier phone scenario.

Care to share any further thoughts? (sorry if you covered this somewhere else, I wasn't able to find it)
 

hopmedic

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Excellent write-up. I just found this after some questions were posted about whether the W10M TP violates the warranty in the US carrier phone scenario.

Care to share any further thoughts? (sorry if you covered this somewhere else, I wasn't able to find it)

What thoughts would you be looking for?
 

hopmedic

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The same principles apply. If you were to put Android on the device, still, the same principles apply. Software is never covered. Ever. Hardware is covered regardless of what software is on the phone, unless the software was the cause for hardware failure. You may have to revert to the original configuration in order to prove that it is a hardware failure and not a software issue, but still, hardware is covered. When I was doing extended warranty work, anyone with a modem not working (keep in mind, this was in 2001-2004) had to do a complete restore if other steps didn't resolve it. Why? Because through experience, we learned that due to many modems of that age being "soft" modems, restoring the system often resolved issues that were not easily discoverable in other ways. Yes, doing the restore was the last step, but if deleting drivers and letting them reinstall, or even opening the PC and reseating the modem card didn't resolve it, you were going to have to do a restore. We would not replace a modem on any computer if a restore had not been performed. No exceptions. Why? Because after doing a restore we only ended up replacing about 20% of the modems that were not fixed prior to the restore. Yes, we went by numbers.

An example of a software problem causing a hardware failure? How about a runaway app that causes overheating to the point of battery explosion? Yes, that's a very extreme example, but you get the idea, right? Maybe the heat causes warping (which may not be covered because they may try to call that a cosmetic defect, which isn't covered, but I would fight it if they did), or causes some other problem? Keep in mind that if the device is destroyed by an explosion, or stops working due to software-induced overheating, they're not going to be able to prove it was a software problem so you're going to get it replaced, but technically, it wouldn't be covered. Technically and actually are often two different things.

Does that answer your question?
 

mprebich

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The same principles apply. If you were to put Android on the device, still, the same principles apply. Software is never covered. Ever. Hardware is covered regardless of what software is on the phone, unless the software was the cause for hardware failure. You may have to revert to the original configuration in order to prove that it is a hardware failure and not a software issue, but still, hardware is covered. When I was doing extended warranty work, anyone with a modem not working (keep in mind, this was in 2001-2004) had to do a complete restore if other steps didn't resolve it. Why? Because through experience, we learned that due to many modems of that age being "soft" modems, restoring the system often resolved issues that were not easily discoverable in other ways. Yes, doing the restore was the last step, but if deleting drivers and letting them reinstall, or even opening the PC and reseating the modem card didn't resolve it, you were going to have to do a restore. We would not replace a modem on any computer if a restore had not been performed. No exceptions. Why? Because after doing a restore we only ended up replacing about 20% of the modems that were not fixed prior to the restore. Yes, we went by numbers.

An example of a software problem causing a hardware failure? How about a runaway app that causes overheating to the point of battery explosion? Yes, that's a very extreme example, but you get the idea, right? Maybe the heat causes warping (which may not be covered because they may try to call that a cosmetic defect, which isn't covered, but I would fight it if they did), or causes some other problem? Keep in mind that if the device is destroyed by an explosion, or stops working due to software-induced overheating, they're not going to be able to prove it was a software problem so you're going to get it replaced, but technically, it wouldn't be covered. Technically and actually are often two different things.

Does that answer your question?

Yes, that more than answered my question. To clarify, the main point that I was getting at was, if the carrier(s) don't release W10M for your phone, you can use Insider preview to upgrade. No problem. But if you have to send it in for warranty coverage, would the fact that you put W10M on it invalidate the warranty. In the case that you can still use the phone and restore to W8.1, there would likely be no issues. But if you couldn't restore, due to dead phone, and it was determined that W10M was installed, could the carrier say, "sorry, you voided the warranty when you put W10M on it". From your posts, I guess the answer to that is yes, they could say that. Would they, maybe not, as many have said they could avail of warranty service and the carrier didn't ask any questions.

Just trying to get to the real answers, regardless of whether one could get W10M through Insider.

Thanks.
 

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