09-05-2015 03:18 AM
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  1. hopmedic's Avatar
    Warranty. How is it affected? Everyone seems to have a different story. Some say that Nokia reps told them that it's voided if they use PDP (and yes, some have provided documentation of this claim). I have actually had my 928 replaced under warranty while running PDP with GDR3. Did I just get lucky? Who's right and who's wrong?

    Keep in mind that the warranty that I am discussing here is for a US device, and I do not know how this warranty may differ from the warranty in other countries, as laws vary, but I would venture to guess that most of them are materially the same.

    Who am I to say?
    For several years, I worked at one of the largest insurance companies in the world. I worked in a department that managed extended warranties, most of my time dealing specifically with electronics warranties, and a part of my tenure dealing with home warranties. I started out on the phones taking calls from customers just like you, who were calling in with problems with their computers and such, and wanted that problem to be fixed under the warranty. I can tell you from that perspective that my primary job was to minimize expense. If I could find a way to turn down every single claim, my boss would have loved me (more than he did - ). But the warranty is a contract, and it is a contract that goes two ways. There are responsibilities for the user as well as the warranty company. For example, the user has to use his device in a way that is not considered misuse or abuse. The company, in-turn, has a responsibility to repair covered items.

    After one year on the job, I was promoted to Customer Relations. In that position, I only dealt with angry or dissatisfied customers. In other words, I only dealt with customers whom we'd already told their claim was not covered. It was my job to research the reason for the declination, research the reason of the failure, and determine whether we correctly declined the claim or if the declination should be reversed. I had the final say on whether a claim would be paid or not. There was no appeal above me. So I hope from this you can gather that I know very well how to read a warranty and understand what is required of the company.

    Warranty - What is it?
    Now that you know from what experience I'm talking, let's take a look at the warranty. Here it is, photographed from the booklet for my 928.

    First two pages:
    wp_20140416_12_01_24_pro.jpg
    Note the highlighted portion. This tells you what is covered. The main device, the battery, the charger - basically the hardware that comes in the box.

    Next two pages:
    wp_20140416_12_01_44_pro.jpg
    Note the highlighted section - What this warranty does not cover. You should always read this section before trying to make a warranty claim on any device. This is where you will learn what will keep you from getting the warranty repair. Look at section 7, highlighted.
    7. Damage caused by hacking, cracking, viruses, or other malware, or by unauthorized access to services, accounts, computer systems or networks
    By installing the Preview for Developers, did you hack or crack? Is it a virus or other malware? Was your access to this service unauthorized? No. Therefore this provision of the contract does not apply. I believe, though, that this is what the low-level customer service types on Twitter and other social media are referring to (if they are referring to anything at all) when they say that the PDP is not covered. They are not reading it with understanding.

    Paragraph 10 I suppose could also be a source of confusion. It says that all the software that comes on the phone is considered Nokia software. That would include the OS, and yes, the Univision app that I always delete first. It says that this software, the OS and all apps that come with it, including upgrades and updates, is not warranted to meet your requirements, run apps you want to run, work with any other software or hardware (That BT headset? Yeah - there's no warranty that it will work with the phone. That's what this means.). (continued on next image)

    Next two pages:
    wp_20140416_12_02_00_pro.jpg
    It also says near the top that they don't warrant that the software included will work (operation uninterrupted, error free, or defects will be corrected or are correctable). So basically, it says that the software on the phone may stop working, may not be fixable, and isn't covered. In other words, they don't cover software under the warranty. Only the hardware is covered. It also says that the software is provided "as-is." In other words, software is not covered. See a theme here?

    Nokia will make their software available for reinstall (latest version - so don't count on older version availability) if there is a software problem that is covered.

    What will void the warranty? Look at the highlighted section at the bottom of page 30, and the top of page 31, items 1 through 4.
    This warranty is not valid if: (paraphrased)
    1. Your product has been opened, modified (this is talking hardware), repaired without Nokia's authorization, or repaired with unauthorized spare parts. Broke your screen and replaced it with one you got from eBay? You no longer have a warranty.
    2. Your product's serial number or IMEI has been removed, erased, defaced, altered, or illegible. I would imagine that these numbers are present somewhere inside even phones without removable batteries (I could be wrong), but they are present in the firmware when you look in settings | about | more info. So you stole a phone (yeah, I know - you found it), and it couldn't be reactivated because the IMEI is bad, so you reflashed it (which is illegal in the US) with a new number, right? No warranty.
    3. Your product was exposed to moisture or extreme thermal or environmental conditions, corrosion or oxidization. You were at Yellowstone and dropped your phone into one of those really pretty hot bath things (I've never been there)? Your warranty is void.
    4. The software your product runs on has been modified. Ah, here's another place where those customer service types are mis-reading. Ok - so technically when you do PDP, you're modifying the software that the phone runs on, right? Well, there are two outs for that. First, the change is authorized. And second, if you can put the original software back on (I haven't done this, but I've seen lots talk about reflashing with the original image from Nokia's site (I don't remember the name of it)), and the problem still exists, then you're covered. Remember, if this clause is taken literally as it is written, official updates void the warranty. This clause is talking about hacking the OS.

    Last two pages:
    wp_20140416_12_02_30_pro.jpg
    The rest of the warranty language.

    So here's what it boils down to. Is it a hardware failure or a software failure? If it is a hardware failure, what is the cause? If it is a software failure, then it isn't covered anyway, updated with PDP or not. If it is a hardware failure, did software cause the problem? Misuse? Abuse? Not covered. Is it a hardware failure that is unrelated to software, misuse or abuse, or any of the other exclusions? Then you're covered.

    Remember, folks, this warranty is a legally binding contract, not some seat-of-the-pants, run-on-a-whim decision that some customer service level person gets to pick and choose. If the warranty is declined, they have to be able to tell you which of the exclusions was used in the declination, and if you're not satisfied with the answer, go up the ladder, and into a court room if need be. Don't buy into the "it's not covered" mantra without doing your homework.
    Last edited by hopmedic; 04-19-2014 at 08:48 AM.
    04-16-2014 12:06 PM
  2. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    Excellent write-up! That should be helpful to a lot of members.
    04-16-2014 12:09 PM
  3. hopmedic's Avatar
    Thanks, Laura. That's my hope. Now back to work... I didn't really have time to do this, but I did it during my lunch break, because I've been wanting to put it up for a few days.
    cjloyola likes this.
    04-16-2014 12:13 PM
  4. awilliams1701's Avatar
    wait does that mean i voided the warrenty when I removed the sticker on the back with the IMEI number on it? I only removed it because it sticks out. If they would design it so that its flush with the rest of the back I wouldn't have cared.
    04-16-2014 12:25 PM
  5. Lance_WPCentral's Avatar
    That was one hell of a topic man. Very well analyzed and written. I see where are you coming from now. Thanks for the article which will be helpful to a lot of members.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    04-16-2014 12:38 PM
  6. hopmedic's Avatar
    wait does that mean i voided the warrenty when I removed the sticker on the back with the IMEI number on it? I only removed it because it sticks out. If they would design it so that its flush with the rest of the back I wouldn't have cared.
    No, you did not. The sticker is there for ease of use. The IMEI is still baked in - you can see it in settings | about | more info, as I stated above.
    04-16-2014 12:58 PM
  7. Indistinguishable's Avatar
    This is fantastic. Thanks, Rich!
    hopmedic likes this.
    04-16-2014 04:21 PM
  8. koolakhoo's Avatar
    amazing !!! thanks for taking the pain to write this ,definitely will be helpful
    hopmedic likes this.
    04-16-2014 04:36 PM
  9. midix's Avatar
    We here in some countries of the Eastern Europe are used to buying our phones not at carriers' but in our major electronics shops which usually distribute phones from other regions though some bulk importers. It's what Wikipedia calls "grey market". We do so not to buy something which is not officially available here but because of prices. After the financial crisis in 2008 our carriers stopped subsiding phones and now it's much more expensive to buy the same model of the phone at carriers' than in some third party shop. This is really getting confusing. Why mobile phones could not be positioned the same way as other electronics - TVs, computers, fridges... After all, we are global these days and we move around a lot. If I buy a phone on my vacation to the USA or Saudi Arabia, why does it suddenly become "grey" in my country?

    Our local shops generally are trustworthy and provide their own warranty. But you see that with a grey phone it's much harder to take manufacturer's official warranty and claim that I'm right - the shop doesn't know anything about it, and the shop will be the first to try get rid of me. PDP might be a reason for them to avoid their expenses. As grey phones are not serviced in the country where they were sold, the shop might choose to service them in some private unofficial service center which might ignore the official manufacturer warranty (actually, it voids the warranty completely because the phone will have parts replaced by an unauthorized person). If I get lucky, the shop might turn to their supplier which then turns to the manufacturer. But I never get to talk to the manufacturer directly about my grey phone, thus I cannot prove anything. Well, that's the price for buying grey products...
    Last edited by midix; 04-17-2014 at 09:11 AM.
    04-17-2014 08:47 AM
  10. hopmedic's Avatar
    We here in some countries of the Eastern Europe are used to buying our phones not at carriers' but in our major electronics shops which usually distribute phones from other regions though some bulk importers. It's what Wikipedia calls "grey market". We do so not to buy something which is not officially available here but because of prices. After the financial crisis in 2008 our carriers stopped subsiding phones and now it's much more expensive to buy the same model of the phone at carriers' than in some third party shop. This is really getting confusing. Why mobile phones could not be positioned the same way as other electronics - TVs, computers, fridges... After all, we are global these days and we move around a lot. If I buy a phone on my vacation to the USA or Saudi Arabia, why does it suddenly become "grey" in my country?

    Our local shops generally are trustworthy and provide their own warranty. But you see that with a grey phone it's much harder to take manufacturer's official warranty and claim that I'm right - the shop doesn't know anything about it, and the shop will be the first to try get rid of me. PDP might be a reason for them to avoid their expenses. As grey phones are not serviced in the country where they were sold, the shop might choose to service them in some private unofficial service center which might ignore the official manufacturer warranty (actually, it voids the warranty completely because the phone will have parts replaced by an unauthorized person). If I get lucky, the shop might turn to their supplier which then turns to the manufacturer. But I never get to talk to the manufacturer directly about my grey phone, thus I cannot prove anything. Well, that's the price for buying grey products...
    I've wondered about this myself. I've never bought grey market, but I have looked at grey market cameras. I just ended up buying the US version because of the lack of usable warranty on the grey market items.
    04-17-2014 10:21 AM
  11. Rohon Koley's Avatar
    If I upgrade my lumia 520 to wp 8.1 can using preview for developer can I back to wp 8 from wp 8.1 ???
    04-18-2014 12:26 AM
  12. hopmedic's Avatar
    If I upgrade my lumia 520 to wp 8.1 can using preview for developer can I back to wp 8 from wp 8.1 ???
    The official answer is no. There is a way, but I will not go into it because I have not done it myself.
    04-18-2014 05:29 PM
  13. DavidinCT's Avatar
    Thanks for this, good info...Hope this will end the age old question...Will installing the Preview program void my warrany? and we know we have seen tons of threads on this subject in the past :(
    04-19-2014 09:45 AM
  14. L Beezy's Avatar
    Well written and fully explained. Awesome article!
    04-19-2014 08:04 PM
  15. T Moore's Avatar
    Terms and Conditions for Windows Phone Preview for Developers
    b.INSTALLING WINDOWS PHONE SOFTWARE ON A WINDOWS PHONE THAT YOU OWN.
    BY INSTALLING WINDOWS PHONE SOFTWARE UPDATES AVAILABLE THROUGH THIS PROGRAM, THE FOLLOWING MAY OCCUR: 1.YOU WILL LIKELY VOID ANY APPLICABLE OEM, ODM OR MOBILE OPERATOR WARRANTY FOR THAT PHONE.

    2.YOU MAY CAUSE IRREPARABLE HARM TO YOUR PHONE, INCLUDING LOSS OF ALL DATA. DATA INCLUDES SMS MESSAGES, GAME INFORMATION AND APPLICATION INFORMATION, AS WELL AS MUSIC, VIDEOS, PHOTOS AND EMAIL. ADDITIONAL DATA NOT LISTED HERE MAY ALSO BE LOST.

    c.YOU AGREE TO WAIVE ANY SUPPORT FOR YOUR WINDOWS PHONE FROM THE MANUFACTURER OF YOUR WINDOWS PHONE AND MOBILE OPERATOR OF THE NETWORK THAT YOUR WINDOWS PHONE WORKS ON. YOU AGREE TO WAIVE ANY RIGHT TO RETURN YOUR WINDOWS PHONE TO YOUR APPLICABLE OEM, ODM OR MOBILE OPERATOR.


    https://dev.windowsphone.com/en-us/develop/devpreview

    What about this?
    04-19-2014 09:06 PM
  16. LucasLumia's Avatar
    The Nokia Develoer Team repeatedly said it doesn't void it. You can see it in their twitter acount from the day the preview was launched.
    04-19-2014 09:09 PM
  17. hopmedic's Avatar
    Terms and Conditions for Windows Phone Preview for Developers
    b.INSTALLING WINDOWS PHONE SOFTWARE ON A WINDOWS PHONE THAT YOU OWN.
    BY INSTALLING WINDOWS PHONE SOFTWARE UPDATES AVAILABLE THROUGH THIS PROGRAM, THE FOLLOWING MAY OCCUR: 1.YOU WILL LIKELY VOID ANY APPLICABLE OEM, ODM OR MOBILE OPERATOR WARRANTY FOR THAT PHONE.

    2.YOU MAY CAUSE IRREPARABLE HARM TO YOUR PHONE, INCLUDING LOSS OF ALL DATA. DATA INCLUDES SMS MESSAGES, GAME INFORMATION AND APPLICATION INFORMATION, AS WELL AS MUSIC, VIDEOS, PHOTOS AND EMAIL. ADDITIONAL DATA NOT LISTED HERE MAY ALSO BE LOST.

    c.YOU AGREE TO WAIVE ANY SUPPORT FOR YOUR WINDOWS PHONE FROM THE MANUFACTURER OF YOUR WINDOWS PHONE AND MOBILE OPERATOR OF THE NETWORK THAT YOUR WINDOWS PHONE WORKS ON. YOU AGREE TO WAIVE ANY RIGHT TO RETURN YOUR WINDOWS PHONE TO YOUR APPLICABLE OEM, ODM OR MOBILE OPERATOR.


    https://dev.windowsphone.com/en-us/develop/devpreview

    What about this?
    Did you read any of what I wrote in the first post?
    04-19-2014 10:35 PM
  18. Markham Ranja's Avatar
    Did you read any of what I wrote in the first post?
    I did, and very little of what you said is correct.

    Regardless of what the Nokia warranty says, it is a fact that any carrier-sold locked devices (apart from iPhones) are covered by the carrier, not the manufacturer (in the US). The Nokia support contract does not matter here unless it's a phone purchased directly from Nokia.

    Secondly, talking about "unauthorised software modifications"? You say the PDP is "authorised". I ask, by whom? In the case of official OTA updates, that is "authorised" by the carrier. Moreover, since they're the ones pushing out the update they automatically have an obligation to be responsible for any consequences. Installing the PDP is very different.

    Also see clause 6c of What this Warranty does not cover: Using the product with any software not manufactured and supplied by Nokia.

    There are plenty of valid reasons to decline warranty on a PDP phone. It may be different in the US where the carriers and Nokia may choose not to use these clauses for goodwill reasons. However, I can say that in a lot of other countries they will make every excuse possible to avoid having to replace or repair your phone and PDP could be one.
    anony_mouse likes this.
    04-20-2014 12:24 AM
  19. hopmedic's Avatar
    I did, and very little of what you said is correct.

    Regardless of what the Nokia warranty says, it is a fact that any carrier-sold locked devices (apart from iPhones) are covered by the carrier, not the manufacturer (in the US). The Nokia support contract does not matter here unless it's a phone purchased directly from Nokia.

    Secondly, talking about "unauthorised software modifications"? You say the PDP is "authorised". I ask, by whom? In the case of official OTA updates, that is "authorised" by the carrier. Moreover, since they're the ones pushing out the update they automatically have an obligation to be responsible for any consequences. Installing the PDP is very different.

    Also see clause 6c of What this Warranty does not cover: Using the product with any software not manufactured and supplied by Nokia.

    There are plenty of valid reasons to decline warranty on a PDP phone. It may be different in the US where the carriers and Nokia may choose not to use these clauses for goodwill reasons. However, I can say that in a lot of other countries they will make every excuse possible to avoid having to replace or repair your phone and PDP could be one.
    Your lack of understanding is understandable. It is clear which of us has experience in administering warranty and insurance policies. I have had two Nokia devices replaced by Nokia, not by my carrier. A Lumia 928 (running GDR3 PDP), and a DT-901 (I think) charging plate (black). Regardless of where you purchase your device, the manufacturer is still the party that is beholden to the warranty (read your warranty - it doesn't name your carrier, it names Nokia). What you have through the carrier is not a warranty, but an insurance policy. I had my reasons for not wanting to deal with Verizon when I had my devices replaced. I went straight to the source, because I do understand how warranties work.

    Oh - and I have proven through experience that Nokia does not void the warranty on a device running a developer preview. I had one replaced. No matter what you say, you can't take away the first-hand experience that a person has had.

    The PDP is "authorized" simply because it is not an unauthorized hack. It is published by Microsoft, the creator of the OS.

    Your understanding is flawed, but that is ok - the purpose of this thread is to clear up misunderstandings like yours. Cheers.
    04-20-2014 08:21 AM
  20. Robert Novak1's Avatar
    If I upgrade my lumia 520 to wp 8.1 can using preview for developer can I back to wp 8 from wp 8.1 ???
    you will have to use the Nokia Care Suite to load the latest ROM image for your device (well actually internal storage image). Takes about 10 minutes total time
    04-20-2014 12:53 PM
  21. lcw731's Avatar
    I did, and very little of what you said is correct.



    Regardless of what the Nokia warranty says, it is a fact that any carrier-sold locked devices (apart from iPhones) are covered by the carrier, not the manufacturer (in the US). The Nokia support contract does not matter here unless it's a phone purchased directly from Nokia.


    .

    Where did you get your info? I just had my 920 bought from AT&T on contract repaired by Nokia under warranty and they had no issue with it and made no mention of having to go through AT&T. I even told them specifically I didn't want to go through at AT&T because I didn't want a refurbished phone with someone else's problem, I wanted to keep the phone I had.





    Sent from my RM-915_nam_usa_228 using Tapatalk
    hopmedic likes this.
    04-20-2014 08:43 PM
  22. Kwanton81's Avatar
    Thanks for this. As much as it reassures me and made me feel positive, I didn't send my phone with WP8.1 for warranty repair and instead just flashed it back.

    And for those like me who need warranty repair, running PDP and don't feel 100% that you'll get the warranty, then just flash it back. My Nokia Lumia 925 was running WP8.1 PDP, and I just flashed it back to WP8 with GDR3. Right now, my phone is at the Nokia Care Point to be sent somewhere for warranty repair.

    Reason for me flashing back the firmware for warranty? I just don't want Nokia to call me next day and say "Oh, we can't do the repair because of WP8.1 PDP." And then me saying OP's explanation of warranty, etc.
    04-24-2014 11:30 AM
  23. Kwanton81's Avatar
    If I upgrade my lumia 520 to wp 8.1 can using preview for developer can I back to wp 8 from wp 8.1 ???
    Yes. I just did that now. I'm not saying 100% it works for everyone, but it worked for me. Some people in the forums claim to have bricked their phones. Well, I don't know what they did to get that, but as for me, it works perfectly.
    04-24-2014 11:32 AM
  24. Thelosouvlakia's Avatar
    Guys, guys.
    Nokia DeviceMaker=Microsoft.
    They can't just deny you the guarantee for something they made. It's stupid enough for them to do such a thing. :P
    lcw731 likes this.
    04-25-2014 09:39 AM
  25. T1Cybernetic's Avatar
    Good news ;) Although it would be great if we never have to use the warranty in the first place :D
    04-28-2014 01:24 PM
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