07-03-2014 04:24 AM
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tools
  1. meddyrainzo's Avatar
    There is a fine line between simplicity and functionality. I am an engineer, and from all people we understand this the most. Making an engineering decision requires a good balance between this and that; everything in this world comes with advantages and disadvantages, so an engineering decision must create a good balance for the perfect, most balanced solution.

    In the case of simple vs functional, I find metro to be overly simplistic, in a way that degrades functionality. Having a simple system has great advantages, but it also comes with lots of disadvantages, which most important is functionality. No one wants a simple system that cannot do simple tasks good enough, also, no one wants a complex system that users get confused from.

    In this case, I vote for having more functionality, out of a simple system, without ruining it's personality, in which I believe skinned-tiles do. I think Microsoft also agrees with me, as all the things I am demanding are already found in Windows 8.

    Hope you understand me well enough.
    Well if they did agree with you, they wouldn't have skinned tiles as their "way to go" would they :).
    It works for desktop, doesn't seem to work on mobile

    Haha, well, I am no designer. In fact, I am a Mechatronics Engineer. I agree that my attitude wasn't the best, but I swear that's cause I am so passionate about WP.

    You see, I've used WP since I've got my HD2, and I won't trade it for anything else in the market, but it kills to see lots and lots of people demands that Microsoft take ages for it to listen, and when they do, it's not what you were waiting for -for me at least-.

    I managed to switch 20 people of whom I know to WP, and I know this for sure, that all of them get bored from it after a while, because "it lacks customization". Microsoft is listening now, and they decided they need to step up the game, but with a decision that -for me- takes the personality of WP and throws it in the trash! SWISH!

    I know that to each with his opinion, it's a matter of discussing ideas, but this thread was meant for people who agree with me. I understand that many wouldn't like that, but hey, start another thread and discuss ideas in there. This is what forums is about.
    But with your option, that would still be the case. They will be very limited and get bored with the various colors the same way they got bored with accent colors and the black and white background.
    I've said this over and over but with skinned tiles, you can even create custom accent colors. This brings greater customization and if you're as passionate as you claim to be, then you would support what helps better and what would draw people more to the platform
    Last edited by rockstarzzz; 03-04-2014 at 09:16 AM.
    03-04-2014 08:42 AM
  2. TripsG's Avatar
    Haha, well, I am no designer. In fact, I am a Mechatronics Engineer. I agree that my attitude wasn't the best, but I swear that's cause I am so passionate about WP.

    You see, I've used WP since I've got my HD2, and I won't trade it for anything else in the market, but it kills to see lots and lots of people demands that Microsoft take ages for it to listen, and when they do, it's not what you were waiting for -for me at least-.

    I managed to switch 20 people of whom I know to WP, and I know this for sure, that all of them get bored from it after a while, because "it lacks customization". Microsoft is listening now, and they decided they need to step up the game, but with a decision that -for me- takes the personality of WP and throws it in the trash! SWISH!

    I know that to each with his opinion, it's a matter of discussing ideas, but this thread was meant for people who agree with me. I understand that many wouldn't like that, but hey, start another thread and discuss ideas in there. This is what forums is about.
    I think your design is great, though I personally wouldn't use it unless it was baked in like it is on my Surface Pro (meaning I have no desire to put my own image behind it), nor do I have a need to group my tiles as I already do it on my home screen as it is, just without the group listed.

    And as I've said a couple of times now, I love your passion, and I think this is exactly the place for these discussions, but along with those who agree, you have to accept the criticisms of those who don't and, unfortunately in this day and age, the general assholery of those who are just, well, assholes.

    Something to consider: When speaking of converting many, what are the real ages of these people? If they are all young the chances of them getting bored with something are 100% greater than someone of my age (48). I was on iOS from the very first day of the very first iPhone and it took until the 920 was released for me to finally get bored with the product, and frankly, I was more upset about the lack of change in the ecosystem. Now I'm on WP and have converted everything over to MS and couldn't be happier, but I can't imagine getting bored quickly. Heck, I kept my 920 until February before I switched the 1520, and I only switched because of the "return your iPhone and get a 1520 free" deal that MS stores were running. Otherwise I may have waited even longer, though the 1520 is what I've always hoped for from Nokia. The point is that change for an entire ecosystem like this can't happen overnight, and more importantly, won't happen for the vocal minority (this isn't politics). There are millions of customers that are business focused that will get what they want long before the average consumer gets what he wants. Apple is starting to see this more and more. As their product permeates the business sector they will face even more backlash from making changes due to the age of the business consumer, who spends more on product and services than the average student. iOS will become very stagnant soon as they can't make wholesale changes to keep the younger crowd happy, and let's face it, iOS got popular because the kids liked it, and bragged to their parents, and their parents bought them and ultimately forced adoption in business, and then they bought them for THEIR parents because they were easy to use and now that the parents AND grandparents use them, it's not cool to the kids. So, enter Samsung...and now all the kids think it's hot and their parents will think so too in time, but Android will never take over the corporate environments like iOS or MS have.

    So, keep on keeping on. You've killed it with the design in my opinion. Just easy on the rhetoric :)
    03-04-2014 08:57 AM
  3. rockstarzzz's Avatar
    Again, making them alike has little to do with appearances. People would be more satisfied with a unified experience and different looks than similar looks and a disjointed experience
    Is that why they overhauled Windows 8 UI so drastically, just to casually match with WP8?

    Unified experience only is unified, if UI is similar and actions on both platforms are performed similarly in the UI. If I had to look for apps in Store on WP but online on Windows, I wouldn't like it. If I had to save my OneNote on Windows but it was autosaved on WP I wouldn't like it. But if I could swipe down to close apps on Windows Phone, I want Windows apps to close the same way. If I can hold my Windows button to talk to Cortana, I want same thing to happen on my Windows Phone. Why?
    Because Windows Phone and Surface tablets are "mobile" versions of your desktop. They need to look alike, they need to behave alike, they need to feel alike. All other ways are disjoined user experience.
    linking1990 and BIGPADDY like this.
    03-04-2014 09:16 AM
  4. linking1990's Avatar
    Well if they did agree with you, they wouldn't have skinned tiles as their "way to go" would they :).
    It works for desktop, doesn't seem to work on mobile
    Well, you are getting ahead of time. They didn't agree, nor disagree either. THEY ARE still testing different methods of how this shall work.
    You need to know that in 2 to 3 years time, desktop and mobile will no longer be different. :)

    But with your option, that would still be the case. They will be very limited and get bored with the various colors the same way they got bored with accent colors and the black and white background.
    I've said this over and over but with skinned tiles, you can even create custom accent colors. This brings greater customization and if you're as passionate as you claim to be, then you would support what helps better and what would draw people more to the platform
    You can have real backgrounds, and also choose accent color from a wheel in the settings menu, simple as that :)
    Himanshu Chowdhary likes this.
    03-04-2014 09:28 AM
  5. Dev Seth's Avatar
    I think that start screen backgrounds would be the best way to go for MS.
    Skinned tiles would look plain ugly and ruin the colorful look of the start screen. Thinking of a static image to be there would be more like having 'dead' tiles than live tiles.
    Also, the current text color for a tile is white, so what would happen if someone chooses a background that contains light colors or white? It would make the text unreadable and there make the live tiles useless.

    Start screen background, though, would look awesome. Look at the Windows 8/8.1 backgrounds. They make the background beautiful while retaining focus on the tiles.
    But it'd be great if they give us the option, although knowing MS I'm feeling that won't be the case.
    linking1990 likes this.
    03-04-2014 09:53 AM
  6. meddyrainzo's Avatar
    Well, you are getting ahead of time. They didn't agree, nor disagree either. THEY ARE still testing different methods of how this shall work.
    You need to know that in 2 to 3 years time, desktop and mobile will no longer be different. :)



    You can have real backgrounds, and also choose accent color from a wheel in the settings menu, simple as that :)
    Let me give you some scenerios(Remember, most smartphone users are teens or early adults. They play a big role in smartphone market)

    USING YOUR IDEA
    I go to watch a movie, let's say Man of Steel , with my friends. After the movie we're so pumped up about it and then we decide to make it our wallpapers. They use Android I use wp8.1 with your startscreen opinion implemented. They find a picture of Cavil as Superman and use it and its awesome. I use mine but they cant see anything because all the tiles are covering it. I'm trying so hard to make mine look half as cool but all the damn tiles are in my way. Ah well, I go back to using my black background.

    Or lets say I travel with my girlfriend to the Caribbean and we take a beautiful picture of the sunrise. She has an android and a wp. She tries to make it her background picture for both phones. On android she can see like 70% of it cause some icons are in the way. On WP, she can see like 4% of it cause of all the tiles in the way. Ah well, she goes back to her black background on WP and shows her beautiful Android start screen to her friends. Or maybe since your idea includes the zoom, she struggles to prove to her friends that the background is actually there on her WP as well(I can imagine the reactions of her friends).

    You can see how skinned tiles would be better in these scenerios...and in basically every other scenario.

    The best picture I've seen with the background behind the tiles is the example you posted that had many colors but what happens when I get tired of that? Pictures just cant work behind the tiles because they aren't visible. You'll just have to stick with colors which you will eventually be tired of (heard the numerous complaints of more tile colors right? cause people got tired of it).

    The fact that MS has implemented the behind the tile option on W8 but is strongly considering skinned tiles should show that even "they" can see it doesn't work on phones. Tablets maybe but not phones.
    No one would be confused if WPs had a different look from desktop windows. Like I keep saying over and over, OSX and iOS look totally different YET no one is confused about them.
    This argument would go on and on and I'm already tired of typing over and over on the same topic so I'll just step out now and say goodluck with what you want. All the leaks so far support the optional skinned tiles thing. Tom Warrens first tweet (with the picture behind the tiles)was made by him because he heard about the tile background. His second confirmed it was going to be skinned. He even replied someone saying "Ha, but it's gonna be there and it would be optional" when the person went full rage about it. His third tweet about backgrounds showed leaked pictures of still the skinned tiles but now even more detailed. MS would MOST LIKELY follow the skinned tile route. Sorry. There are many other things for MS to worry about like say "getting more apps on their platform".
    Goodluck in your quest all the same.
    11B1P likes this.
    03-04-2014 09:59 AM
  7. linking1990's Avatar
    Let me give you some scenerios(Remember, most smartphone users are teens or early adults. They play a big role in smartphone market)

    USING YOUR IDEA
    I go to watch a movie, let's say Man of Steel , with my friends. After the movie we're so pumped up about it and then we decide to make it our wallpapers. They use Android I use wp8.1 with your startscreen opinion implemented. They find a picture of Cavil as Superman and use it and its awesome. I use mine but they cant see anything because all the tiles are covering it. I'm trying so hard to make mine look half as cool but all the damn tiles are in my way. Ah well, I go back to using my black background.

    Or lets say I travel with my girlfriend to the Caribbean and we take a beautiful picture of the sunrise. She has an android and a wp. She tries to make it her background picture for both phones. On android she can see like 70% of it cause some icons are in the way. On WP, she can see like 4% of it cause of all the tiles in the way. Ah well, she goes back to her black background on WP and shows her beautiful Android start screen to her friends. Or maybe since your idea includes the zoom, she struggles to prove to her friends that the background is actually there on her WP as well(I can imagine the reactions of her friends).

    You can see how skinned tiles would be better in these scenerios...and in basically every other scenario.

    The best picture I've seen with the background behind the tiles is the example you posted that had many colors but what happens when I get tired of that? Pictures just cant work behind the tiles because they aren't visible. You'll just have to stick with colors which you will eventually be tired of (heard the numerous complaints of more tile colors right? cause people got tired of it).

    The fact that MS has implemented the behind the tile option on W8 but is strongly considering skinned tiles should show that even "they" can see it doesn't work on phones. Tablets maybe but not phones.
    No one would be confused if WPs had a different look from desktop windows. Like I keep saying over and over, OSX and iOS look totally different YET no one is confused about them.
    This argument would go on and on and I'm already tired of typing over and over on the same topic so I'll just step out now and say goodluck with what you want. All the leaks so far support the optional skinned tiles thing. Tom Warrens first tweet (with the picture behind the tiles)was made by him because he heard about the tile background. His second confirmed it was going to be skinned. He even replied someone saying "Ha, but it's gonna be there and it would be optional" when the person went full rage about it. His third tweet about backgrounds showed leaked pictures of still the skinned tiles but now even more detailed. MS would MOST LIKELY follow the skinned tile route. Sorry. There are many other things for MS to worry about like say "getting more apps on their platform".
    Goodluck in your quest all the same.
    This is how iron man would look like in my idea, it's gorgeous.

    iron-man.jpg

    And this is sunset at the Caribbean with girlfriend:

    girlfriend.jpg
    03-04-2014 10:35 AM
  8. meddyrainzo's Avatar
    This is how iron man would look like in my idea, it's gorgeous.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Like I said, you will have to move from the start screen to see the picture you put. See how all the tiles covered the entire picture? Point made.
    Now since you're good with this, make a replica using that picture, the skinned tiles and tiles that support the skinned tile idea and post it let's have a comparison :)


    Anyways, good luck with your "behind the tile" campaign. May the force be with you
    03-04-2014 10:43 AM
  9. linking1990's Avatar
    Like I said, you will have to move from the start screen to see the picture you put. See how all the tiles covered the entire picture? Point made.
    Now since you're good with this, make a replica using that picture, the skinned tiles and tiles that support the skinned tile idea and post it let's have a comparison :)


    Anyways, good luck with your "behind the tile" campaign. May the force be with you
    This is how it will look on a different laid out tiles:
    iron.jpg

    here is the original:

    nokia-lumia-1520-screenshot-3.jpg
    Attached Thumbnails iron-man.jpg  
    03-04-2014 11:00 AM
  10. Iki Taba's Avatar
    I love how this looks with the real background wallIpaper. It`s just great for my taste.
    With the for ME horrible tile skinnery i don't know what will happen with the 2 most important tiles on my homescreen ( Amazing Weather HD, Windows Phone Central). It`s stupid that developers spent so much time to design a beautiful tile, and MS don't care about it.
    I know not every tile gonna support skinnery but that's even worst, what to do with them than. Rearrange the hole homescreen just to look half decent. Hmmm.
    Like many said before both options would be the best solution, but that's don't gonna happen.
    Again great work @linking1990.
    03-04-2014 11:03 AM
  11. meddyrainzo's Avatar
    This is how it will look on a different laid out tiles:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    here is the original:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Nokia-Lumia-1520-screenshot-3.jpg 
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    This is how it will look on a different laid out tiles:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	iron.jpg 
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    here is the original:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    LOL, I said with tiles that work with the skinned tiles and you did the exact opposite. With the pictures supporting your opinion, you only have backgrounds when you go to the app list...the one place people spend the list time on. So basically, you're asking for app list background not startscreen backgrounds. We also don't know how MS would implement this so we don't know how the app list would look like using the skinned tile method.
    So again, please remake the MOS photo using tiles that support the startscreen and show the "startscreen" of your idea let's have a fair comparison like I did with the Assassins Creed photo

    03-04-2014 11:08 AM
  12. linking1990's Avatar
    LOL, I said with tiles that work with the skinned tiles and you did the exact opposite. With the pictures supporting your opinion, you only have backgrounds when you go to the app list...the one place people spend the list time on. So basically, you're asking for app list background not startscreen backgrounds. We also don't know how MS would implement this so we don't know how the app list would look like using the skinned tile method.
    So again, please remake the MOS photo using tiles that support the startscreen and show the "startscreen" of your idea let's have a fair comparison like I did with the Assassins Creed photo

    https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.n...71272517_o.jpg
    You do realize that all the tiles that are not maroon in your image will not be skinned, do you?

    That includes: Games, bing health, bing food, sports, office, one note, bing weather .....

    Also, in your image, you don't have grouping gaps,

    also, the app list is also within the main screen.

    I thought you knew what you were talking about, obviously, you don't.

    BTW, THAT IS HOW THIS HOME SCREEN WILL LOOK LIKE SKINNED:

    nokia-lumia-1520-screenshot-3.jpg

    ||
    ||
    V
    iron.jpg
    Iki Taba likes this.
    03-04-2014 11:09 AM
  13. Iki Taba's Avatar
    LOL, I said with tiles that work with the skinned tiles and you did the exact opposite. With the pictures supporting your opinion, you only have backgrounds when you go to the app list...the one place people spend the list time on. So basically, you're asking for app list background not startscreen backgrounds. We also don't know how MS would implement this so we don't know how the app list would look like using the skinned tile method.
    So again, please remake the MOS photo using tiles that support the startscreen and show the "startscreen" of your idea let's have a fair comparison like I did with the Assassins Creed photo

    https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.n...71272517_o.jpg
    But that can't be the best solution when you have to pin ONLY the tiles that support skinnery. What's than the point of the homescreen. The homescreen should be the place where you put the tiles you use the most. What when one or more of them don't support skinnery, what than?
    rockstarzzz and BIGPADDY like this.
    03-04-2014 11:14 AM
  14. meddyrainzo's Avatar
    You do realize that all the tiles that are not maroon in your image will not be skinned, do you?
    It was made by WPLovers. Tiles would be optimized for 8.1 AFAIK and it's just a clear example of the start screen with tiles that work and with your background. Of course if people would want to use backgrounds, they would arrange the start screen with tiles that support skinery.
    The example you gave when I asked you for one wasn't logical because no one would use it that way.
    So there is an example of 2 "start screens". One with your idea and one with the leaked start screen
    F3rzz likes this.
    03-04-2014 11:16 AM
  15. Ashish Kakade05's Avatar
    In this case ms should make tiles a bit transparent so that we can even see background image as well as live tiles!!!!what do u all say guy's?????isn't it cool!!!!!
    NokiaFanAWP likes this.
    03-04-2014 11:17 AM
  16. meddyrainzo's Avatar
    But that can't be the best solution when you have to pin ONLY the tiles that support skinnery. What's than the point of the homescreen. The homescreen should be the place where you put the tiles you use the most. What when one or more of them don't support skinnery, what than?
    But at least with this option, you have a way to see the background image on your startscreen. But with the tiles covering everything, no matter what you do, you wont be able to see the background on your "start screen". And if you have all your important apps on your startscreen, you will have little to no reason to go to your app list where the background photo would be visible. There is no right place in this

    Sigh, there will be no end to this argument. If MS would support both, good. If they support Skinery, good. If they support your idea, not bad - This is my opinion!

    Let's just agree to disagree
    Last edited by rockstarzzz; 03-04-2014 at 11:37 AM.
    F3rzz likes this.
    03-04-2014 11:19 AM
  17. Iki Taba's Avatar
    But at least with this option, you have a way to see the background image on your startscreen. But with the tiles covering everything, no matter what you do, you wont be able to see the background on your "start screen". And if you have all your important apps on your startscreen, you will have little to no reason to go to your app list where the background photo would be visible. There is no right place in this
    I never planned to put a picture of my family or something like that so I need to see the hole picture. There are a couple of mockups with "abstract" backgrounds that looks amazing to me. The hole point is to break out of just black and white background color.
    But like you said let's agree to disagree.
    03-04-2014 11:33 AM
  18. rockstarzzz's Avatar
    I like the original out of all those photos you guys have been posting. Original is so WP... Everything else is cluserfcuk.

    If I wanted to show off my iron man or girlfriend on beach - I will put it on lockscreen and double tap my phone to show them the awesome photo, without even having to unlock my phone.

    Not a single icon or tile will hide my photo, only white text overlaid on top.
    03-04-2014 11:36 AM
  19. Ma Rio's Avatar
    This thread isn't going anywhere. And as far as I know, MS will just keep it to their own.
    03-04-2014 01:44 PM
  20. linking1990's Avatar
    I like the original out of all those photos you guys have been posting. Original is so WP... Everything else is cluserfcuk.

    If I wanted to show off my iron man or girlfriend on beach - I will put it on lockscreen and double tap my phone to show them the awesome photo, without even having to unlock my phone.

    Not a single icon or tile will hide my photo, only white text overlaid on top.
    Exactly my point, as someone said earlier, we don't need any background behind the tiles, for me personally I'd rather having to choose from a pre-set of abstract backgrounds, just like the ones found in Windows 8, that also have the parallex effect while scrolling (tail of the dragon I am looking at you!)



    Start @ 1:54
    Last edited by linking1990; 03-05-2014 at 03:50 AM.
    poiman, Moiz Mian and svenhassel like this.
    03-05-2014 02:56 AM
  21. NokiaFanAWP's Avatar
    I completely agree with linking1990.... It wud b nice,to hav a background
    03-05-2014 03:23 AM
  22. linking1990's Avatar
    I completely agree with linking1990.... It wud b nice,to hav a background
    ​Thank you :)
    Himanshu Chowdhary likes this.
    03-05-2014 03:49 AM
  23. poiman's Avatar
    But at least with this option, you have a way to see the background image on your startscreen. But with the tiles covering everything, no matter what you do, you wont be able to see the background on your "start screen". And if you have all your important apps on your startscreen, you will have little to no reason to go to your app list where the background photo would be visible. There is no right place in this

    Sigh, there will be no end to this argument. If MS would support both, good. If they support Skinery, good. If they support your idea, not bad - This is my opinion!

    Let's just agree to disagree
    Really? You really don't mind Live Tiles (the core experience of the OS) completely losing their identity so that you can see your Iron Man photo? Functionality is far more important in my opinion. Live Tiles colours help with their functionality, believe it or not. With skins you lose that. Background is the best option, specially if it's limited to some plain colours or gradients so that everything is kept very clean.
    03-05-2014 05:00 AM
  24. Irrationalad's Avatar
    I just want my Start Screen on Windows Phone 8.1, to be similar to my Start Screen on Windows 8.1

    screenshot-2-.png
    03-05-2014 06:29 PM
  25. poiman's Avatar
    I just want my Start Screen on Windows Phone 8.1, to be similar to my Start Screen on Windows 8.1

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Agree! That background colour brings happiness to your Start Screen. That would totally change if it was a black background. The same can be said for WP, so I don't really understand why does Microsoft just really want to give us black or white...
    linking1990 likes this.
    03-05-2014 07:34 PM
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