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04-08-2014 07:26 AM
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  1. MSFTisMIA's Avatar
    Carriers have the power to block devices from their network. And it's Microsoft, the company trying to get a foot in the door, at least in the US market. I can bet that given how little support the carriers give their own WP devices that they would actively block WP devices if Microsoft went down that route.
    +1.

    It is plain as day on MSFT's OWN website, on the page that says "6 reasons to switch to WP". Go to the bottom and you will see in the fine print:

    "All WP8 models support WP8.1; availability based on carrier".

    The only person who has clout over the carriers is Apple. Google doesn't because the Android OEMs negotiate directly with the carriers. The relationship between MSFT at the carriers is lukewarm at best. Look at how ELOP had to cover everyone's *** when that reporter talked about how ****ty AT&T is as a partner during the 1020 launch. That should tell you all you need to know.
    04-07-2014 10:37 AM
  2. inteller's Avatar
    ""All WP8 models support WP8.1; availability based on carrier".

    You can't weasel out with fine print statements like that when you are LOUDLY and PUBLICLY saying "ALL WP8 devices will get 8.1" Both Elop and Nokia blog says it. They have painted themselves into a corner and better get with T-Mo to get that 810 tested and upgraded.
    04-07-2014 10:41 AM
  3. MSFTisMIA's Avatar
    ""All WP8 models support WP8.1; availability based on carrier".

    You can't weasel out with fine print statements like that when you are LOUDLY and PUBLICLY saying "ALL WP8 devices will get 8.1" Both Elop and Nokia blog says it. They have painted themselves into a corner and better get with T-Mo to get that 810 tested and upgraded.
    Um, this happens all the time. It's called BUSINESS ADVERTISING.

    I'm all for them updating both the 810 AND t-mo's 8X variant. At least when t-mo EOL'ed the 810, they let everyone know. They threw their 8X users in the back part of the basement and left them high and dry. I blame MSFT for going the carrier OTA solely route. I blame t-mo for pricing those phones competitively as to why they didn't sell. Bottom line is MSFT has NO PULL with the carriers. That's why my last carrier phone was the 810. Never again, unless I end up on Verizon. Can't trust none of them.
    04-07-2014 10:59 AM
  4. inteller's Avatar
    no, that is called FALSE advertising and can have serious repercussions.
    04-07-2014 11:04 AM
  5. neo158's Avatar
    ""All WP8 models support WP8.1; availability based on carrier".

    You can't weasel out with fine print statements like that when you are LOUDLY and PUBLICLY saying "ALL WP8 devices will get 8.1" Both Elop and Nokia blog says it. They have painted themselves into a corner and better get with T-Mo to get that 810 tested and upgraded.
    Not false advertising, ALL WP8 devices can get WP8.1 with or without carriers. Ever hear of the Windows Phone Developer Preview?
    cckgz4 likes this.
    04-07-2014 11:10 AM
  6. Daniel Ratcliffe's Avatar
    no they do not. stop spreading bull. any phone that properly complies with the GSM standard is allowed to operate on any compatible network. An IMEI is only blocked if it has been reported stolen. There are thousands, if not millions of unbranded phones roaming on foreign networks as we speak. No one is blocking them....BECAUSE IT MAKES THEM MONEY from network use.

    CDMA sides have more control because every phone must have an ESN registered with the network and Verizon has to assign blocks of ESNs to manufacturers (a draconian system that is going the way of the dodo BTW) This is also why the US Gov forced Verizon to leave the GSM sides of all their phones unlocked, for network interoperability purposes.
    So you just proved my point that carriers DO have the power to block phones. Albeit it is only used currently if they are registered stolen, it is still possible to block them. Anyways I aren't arguing this anymore. As a retired moderator I need to know when to back out from an argument before we run the risk of moving into personal attacks and this is the right time.
    hopmedic likes this.
    04-07-2014 11:38 AM
  7. juanitoriv's Avatar
    Hey guys, as was stated before, OEMs negotiate with carriers directly. Do you think Google sits down with Boost? HTC should be at the table with T-Mo and not MS. Apple is their own OEM, so.... They do what they do. MS is about to be their own OEM, and Lumia will have a more iOS, Nexus feel in regards to updates. MS should, nay SHOULD do their damndest to establish a strict OTA policy amongst all, what ,13 current WP OEM partners.

    But please consider, it's the OEMs and carriers themselves that have allowed this issue to gestate in the first place. I see a "You know what is what, we just don't give a f$*k, we just strut!" attitude would need to be portrayed to enable this type of operational integration, which is being done now with the Dev Preview program!!

    With Windows and PCs, it was always "Here are the updates, come get 'em" philosophy. Still is!! No 3rd party approval. Oh wait, Dev Preview. Again!!

    I see that, here in the near future, policy will be changed dramatically and 'direct to consumers' will become something of a dogma.
    hopmedic and MSFTisMIA like this.
    04-07-2014 12:03 PM
  8. hopmedic's Avatar
    Yes, hopefully the Preview for Developers is just a beginning, not the end of the policy.
    04-07-2014 12:11 PM
  9. inteller's Avatar
    Google doesn't sit down at the table with carriers, BECAUSE THEY SELL THE NEXUS 5 DIRECT TO YOU. And guess what? ATT DOESN'T BLOCK IT.
    04-07-2014 12:13 PM
  10. inteller's Avatar
    So you just proved my point that carriers DO have the power to block phones. Albeit it is only used currently if they are registered stolen, it is still possible to block them. Anyways I aren't arguing this anymore. As a retired moderator I need to know when to back out from an argument before we run the risk of moving into personal attacks and this is the right time.
    I proved that carriers block them when it IS A COURSE OF LAW, not business. And even then stolen IMEI blocking is inconsistent across carriers. Most stolen phones can be taken overseas far away from their home networks and used to the end of their practical life.
    04-07-2014 12:16 PM
  11. juanitoriv's Avatar
    Google doesn't sit down at the table with carriers, BECAUSE THEY SELL THE NEXUS 5 DIRECT TO YOU. And guess what? ATT DOESN'T BLOCK IT.
    Exactly!!!!
    04-07-2014 12:16 PM
  12. Daniel Ratcliffe's Avatar
    I proved that carriers block them when it IS A COURSE OF LAW, not business. And even then stolen IMEI blocking is inconsistent across carriers. Most stolen phones can be taken overseas far away from their home networks and used to the end of their practical life.
    But you still proved that carriers can and do block them. Maybe not for the reasons I stated earlier in the thread, but it's clear that they can.
    04-07-2014 12:39 PM
  13. MSFTisMIA's Avatar
    Every business has fine print like this when it advertises. I'm not sure what line of work inteller is in, but businesses have always done this. If consumers really cared, people would boycott t-mo for a week until the 8X and 810 users get the updates. Or all the other WP8 users would sign a petition or show some force. But, because no one will do that, consumers who buy the wrong device or service are at the seller's mercy. I'm sure MSFT, HTC and Nokia would like to update both phones, but t-mo contracted them to make those devices. HTC and Nokia dare not jeopardize current and future business deals by breaking contract and releasing this update for a few hundred (or whatever the low number is) of users. At least more people bought the 822 on VZW, so when VZW tried that no update garbage, people revolted and VZW pushed through the update. But that was on the #2 carrier in terms of size and subscribers. T-mo is growing its base and will chuck WP8 users aside for the iPhone and Android crowd. You saw how t-mo was bullying Blackberry.

    THERE ARE NO REAL CONSEQUENCES COMING. There weren't any when MSFT went from WM 6.5 to WP7 and when they went from WP7 to WP8. People got left behind and nobody cared. That's the current structure we live in. Either you bend the rules to your advantage by buying unlocked phones and cutting the carriers out, or you buy a popular model. Or you take your business elsewhere.
    juanitoriv likes this.
    04-07-2014 12:50 PM
  14. MSFTisMIA's Avatar
    But you still proved that carriers can and do block them. Maybe not for the reasons I stated earlier in the thread, but it's clear that they can.
    Agreed. Tethering or internet sharing is a great example of this. Everyone and their grandmother now knows that with the newer unlocked models, if tethering isn't in your package the carrier will block it. I have to curse t-mo out because I get that upgrade message when I use my unlocked 925. I don't get that anymore with either my Z Ultra or my 8X, which are both unlocked as well. And for the record, I HAVE tethering already on my plan.

    The carriers know what phones are on their network. It is within their right to BLOCK SERVICES ON A CONSUMER'S ACCOUNT THAT THEY ARE NOT PAYING FOR. IT'S CALLED STEALING, WHICH IS ILLEGAL last time I checked.
    Last edited by MSFTisMIA; 04-07-2014 at 02:27 PM.
    juanitoriv and cckgz4 like this.
    04-07-2014 12:56 PM
  15. cckgz4's Avatar
    I proved that carriers block them when it IS A COURSE OF LAW, not business. And even then stolen IMEI blocking is inconsistent across carriers. Most stolen phones can be taken overseas far away from their home networks and used to the end of their practical life.
    So....you getting all mad, typing in caps, about how Microsoft is "lying" and twisting their words, but you do the same about carrier blocking? Heelarryus
    hopmedic likes this.
    04-07-2014 01:59 PM
  16. inteller's Avatar
    Carriers can't and DON'T block IMEIs as a business practice, because that would be anti-competitive and in some jurisdictions against the law. Love how all the ******** pile in here when they think they have a point.
    04-07-2014 02:23 PM
  17. cckgz4's Avatar
    Uh huh
    04-07-2014 02:25 PM
  18. inteller's Avatar
    Agreed. Tethering or internet sharing is a great example of this. Everyone and their grandmother now knows that with the newer unlocked models, if tethering isn't in your package the carrier will block it. I have to curse t-mo out because I get that upgrade message when I use my unlocked 925. I don't get that anymore with either my Z Ultra or my 8X, which are both unlocked as well.

    The carriers know what phones are on their network. It is within their right to BLOCK SERVICES ON A CONSUMER'S ACCOUNT THAT THEY ARE NOT PAYING FOR. IT'S CALLED STEALING, WHICH IS ILLEGAL last time I checked.
    there is a very simple solution for that that is well documented on the 920 forums.
    04-07-2014 02:26 PM
  19. Zulfigar's Avatar
    Agreed. Tethering or internet sharing is a great example of this. Everyone and their grandmother now knows that with the newer unlocked models, if tethering isn't in your package the carrier will block it. I have to curse t-mo out because I get that upgrade message when I use my unlocked 925. I don't get that anymore with either my Z Ultra or my 8X, which are both unlocked as well. And for the record, I HAVE tethering already on my plan.

    The carriers know what phones are on their network. It is within their right to BLOCK SERVICES ON A CONSUMER'S ACCOUNT THAT THEY ARE NOT PAYING FOR. IT'S CALLED STEALING, WHICH IS ILLEGAL last time I checked.
    I have a 920 on T-Mobile with working tethering due to information on these forums. You can do the same if you download the Spain keyboard and get rid of Access Point by changing the year to 2114 and try to open it up. :)
    04-07-2014 02:31 PM
  20. MSFTisMIA's Avatar
    there is a very simple solution for that that is well documented on the 920 forums.
    Dude, I HAVE tethering on my plan. I shouldn't have to do anything but turn the feature on and use it on my 925 and use it. Nothing more. That's what I do on my 8X and my Z Ultra it works just fine. That's my point. I'm not trying to steal it from t-mo, so I should be able to use it no matter what device I have because I'm ALREADY paying for it.

    The reason the carriers are asses like that is because we have too many cheap mother****ers who go "because I pay my phone bill I should clog up the network in a dishonest way and hog data like that". That's why the carrier can block services in specific cases based on the status if the account holder.
    04-07-2014 02:36 PM
  21. MSFTisMIA's Avatar
    I have a 920 on T-Mobile with working tethering due to information on these forums. You can do the same if you download the Spain keyboard and get rid of Access Point by changing the year to 2114 and try to open it up. :)
    Thanks for the offer. I may look into. My 925 is factory unlocked Malay variant. My 920 beforehand was an unlocked Polish variant, my 8X is British unlocked, and my Z Ultra is Asian unlocked. I shouldn't have to do all that if I have the service active already.

    But my point is still the same. T-mo has the ability even on an unlocked phone to DETECT whether I have a specific service active or not based on what is set up on my account with them. That's the same with pretty much all the carriers - once you activate the phone on their network, they know what you have. They have every right to block you as a user if you're stealing services. And they do...only of the most common ways is called cutting your phone service off for non payment.

    Sometimes the internet produces some arm chair CEOs and FCC officials who lack the common sense to use before they post on a public forum.
    04-07-2014 02:52 PM
  22. Zulfigar's Avatar
    Thanks for the offer. I may look into. My 925 is factory unlocked Malay variant. My 920 beforehand was an unlocked Polish variant, my 8X is British unlocked, and my Z Ultra is Asian unlocked. I shouldn't have to do all that if I have the service active already.

    But my point is still the same. T-mo has the ability even on an unlocked phone to DETECT whether I have a specific service active or not based on what is set up on my account with them. That's the same with pretty much all the carriers - once you activate the phone on their network, they know what you have. They have every right to block you as a user if you're stealing services. And they do...only of the most common ways is called cutting your phone service off for non payment.

    Sometimes the internet produces some arm chair CEOs and FCC officials who lack the common sense to use before they post on a public forum.
    Sadly, I don't know how it all works on the back end, I just know how to get a feature that I pay for working. :/

    Sometimes, it could be a lot more complicated then we think it is.
    MSFTisMIA and juanitoriv like this.
    04-07-2014 02:58 PM
  23. Riley2521's Avatar
    Here is a random question, speaking of upgrades...what is the phone repeatedly pictured in WPCentral articles that has the yellow Qi charging sled on it? Is it a 925?
    04-07-2014 03:04 PM
  24. MSFTisMIA's Avatar
    Sadly, I don't know how it all works on the back end, I just know how to get a feature that I pay for working. :/

    Sometimes, it could be a lot more complicated then we think it is.
    It probably is very complicated. These carriers spends millions of dollars of inventory and infrastructure. It would be foolish to think that they don't have the ability to know how their customers are accessing their network.

    So in summary: carriers have the ability to block access to their network. Carriers have the ability to know how a customer is accessing their network. Carriers by law cannot get up an block a consumer on a whim to access their network. Carriers are allowed to block access to service legally under certain specific situations. Just because an OEM or an OS marker acting as an OEM sells a no carrier branded, factory unlocked device does not mean that if the consumer violates the terms and conditions stipulated by a carrier for using their network that the carrier doesn't have the ability to restrict services.
    04-07-2014 03:19 PM
  25. dabinbinn's Avatar
    will the HTC 8s get the 8.1 update ? i also have developer program on my phone, when will 8.1 hit the preview exactly ?
    04-07-2014 04:05 PM
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