07-21-2014 02:45 PM
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  1. Karthik Naik's Avatar
    The Google Play store is much, much better than the Windows Phone store, so I'm not sure what you're on about.
    dont kid,its top paid apps itself are malware
    windows phone store has much more quality apps
    hirokbanik likes this.
    07-16-2014 05:54 AM
  2. gazmatic's Avatar
    this is a horrible idea and it wont appease either side.

    the argument: users go to android because it has more apps
    the proposed solution: make android available for wp
    the inevitable conclusion: death to wp

    to explain myself... what reason would there be for a person who is only interested in android apps to get a wp phone with android apps? it makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER

    that person is better off getting a GOOGLE NEXUS

    another thing: how would making android apps run on wp help wp gain more apps? IT WONT

    that would be like subway offering a big mac just so that people can shop at subway... IT MAKES NO SENSE

    plus....IT WILL BACKFIRE FOR WP just like it has for BB10 and Jolla sailfish. both allow android yet are they EXPLODING in sales? no. do they have more native apps? NO

    THE SAME WILL HAPPEN TO WP... devs WILL abandon wp because it wont make ANY sense to write a WP APP.

    just write an android app and TARGET FOUR PLATFORMS SIMULTANEOUSLY: android, sailfish, bb10 and WP

    if this does happen... I predict a MASS EXODUS of WP users to OIS.... MYSELF INCLUDED

    kill that idea now... IT IS TOO RIDICULOUS

    what microsoft should do is make a drag and drop porting program... drag a .apk and it converts to a wp app

    i dont know how feasible that would be but it is a much better idea than an emulated android environment. just buy a nexus if you want android apps
    07-16-2014 09:48 AM
  3. MikeLip's Avatar
    I think putting an android framework on WP is going to make it materially worse. In the first place, I have a Z30 (BB). Yes, it runs SOME android apps. And there is an app that allows you to directly get them from the Play store. But have you tried it? The Z30 performs extremely well running native BB10 apps. It sucks running Android apps. I put this down to the additional software layer needed to run the Android stuff. I can't see WP doing any better. Second, have you looked at the state of the apps on Android? The signal to noise ratio is awful, and the apps get more and more intrusive. There is no control over the apps, and they want every permission they can get. For instance, why the heck would a flashlight app need to access your contacts, radios, phone, position, mass storage, etc? So far at least, WP apps don't seem to be tending in that direction. The thing I like about WP is that in some ways it's like iPhone - the apps are consistent and well controlled. Maybe not to the same extent that Apple does it, but way better than Google.

    I also agree with those who think that being able to grab an APK and run it will ruin WP native app development. And if what you are left with is what is in the Play store, what's the point of having a WIndows phone? There are plenty of good Android phones out there. My phone is distinctive, it runs good apps and it runs them securely and very well. I don't need 500 BMI index or astrology apps. I don't want half-assed apps that want your entire life history for no reason other than the app can phone it home and sell the data.
    Karthik Naik likes this.
    07-16-2014 05:17 PM
  4. rodan01's Avatar
    Support for Android apps is exactly what WP needs to start growing, they could finally end the app gap bad image with this.

    Probably low quality native apps will be replaced by Android apps, and that's good for the users. Although, there are still big incentives for native development, because developers make more money with a better app, the profits are related with the quality of the app.

    I think Microsoft won't accept all the Android apps in the store, probably apps with millions of downloads or high revenue will be forced to be native. They can introduce many other economic incentives to promote native development.

    If Android apps don't work well, have too many bugs, or performance issues, Microsoft won't add this feature. It'd be stupid to add noise without any benefit for the users. So, I guess they have a better solution than BlackBerry.
    07-16-2014 05:55 PM
  5. a5cent's Avatar
    Support for Android apps is exactly what WP needs to start growing, they could finally end the app gap bad image with this.

    Probably low quality native apps will be replaced by Android apps, and that's good for the users. Although, there are still big incentives for native development, because developers make more money with a better app, the profits are related with the quality of the app.

    I think Microsoft won't accept all the Android apps in the store, probably apps with millions of downloads or high revenue will be forced to be native. They can introduce many other economic incentives to promote native development.

    If Android apps don't work well, have too many bugs, or performance issues, Microsoft won't add this feature. It'd be stupid to add noise without any benefit for the users. So, I guess they have a better solution than BlackBerry.
    Yes. If the only way to close the app gap is to be content with Android apps that perform poorly, have more bugs, or come with other restrictions that they don't have on proper Android devices, then most people will ignore Android-compatibility as a feature. Filling the app gap with apps that don't work as well as intended just isn't a convincing solution to WP's app problem. I think most people would argue that the app gap still exists, but that it has morphed from a gap of quantity to one of quality, which is exactly what many people are already saying about the current situation.

    If this is to become reality, I expect MS would ignore native Android apps (in the traditional sense of the word, not as it is often used in these forums) and support only those apps written in Java. That accounts for the overwhelming majority of Android apps, with games being the most common exception (although cross platform frameworks like Unity are helping on that front already). I see no reason why Java apps can't perform just as well on WP as they do on Android. However, if that assessment turns out to be correct, I see no reason for companies to spend hundreds of thousands of $$$ developing/updating/maintaining two apps, when they can spend only half that amount by developing just one Android app that runs on both platforms.

    I think that puts the Android-apps-on-WP idea between a rock and a hard place. IMHO the only approach that has a chance of working is one where Android's Java apps work just as well on WP as they do on Android, while also introducing "artificial" incentives and regulations that nudge developers towards eventually providing a WP app as well.

    While I can think of a few possibilities of how such a regulations-framework might be constructed (I described one here), I'm not sure about the extent of those ideas being practical/possible/legal in reality (mainly due to a lack of information), or if MS is even thinking about something along those lines.

    I'm not ready to drop the hammer and say this can't work, but I'm sceptical. I hope MS will convince me otherwise when the time comes.

    I think most people with strong opinions in either direction are judging too hastily. IMHO considering only the technical aspects of Android app compatibility, which is what most here are doing, just isn't enough to make an informed prediction of how this could play out...
    07-16-2014 06:59 PM
  6. SwimSwim's Avatar
    I agree with the general consensus that, should this go forward, it will be the death of native apps for Windows Phone. We're only just starting to get many hold-out developers to at least make web wrappers, and we're even starting to get some full, beautiful metro Universal Apps! Why the hell are we going to ruin that by forcing Android on our devices?

    It'll be the end of native apps. Developers already have very little motivation for the platform, but if this does through, they'll all quickly become complacent with, "We have an Android app, that's good enough for two platforms."

    With inconsistent design plus other horrors of trying to force another runtime to work atop a completely different OS, the user experience will quickly degrade, and WP will become awful for all.

    Microsoft: Go through with this, and WP /WILL/ fail.

    I only hope these rumors prove to be false, and/or Microsoft cancels.
    07-16-2014 07:17 PM
  7. rodan01's Avatar
    Yes. If the only way to close the app gap is to be content with Android apps that perform poorly, have more bugs, or come with other restrictions that they don't have on proper Android devices, then most people will ignore Android-compatibility as a feature. Filling the app gap with apps that don't work as well as intended just isn't a convincing solution to WP's app problem. I think most people would argue that the app gap still exists, but that it has morphed from a gap of quantity to one of quality, which is exactly what many people are already saying about the current situation.
    Microsoft has to improve the perception to increase the market share, It's not necessary to solve the problem perfectly. They have to promote the Lumia line with the same pitch that the Nokia X, -the apps are here-:
    "Nokia X smartphones are your Fastlane to Android™ Apps…. Access the world of Android apps...". Or like Chen saying that BB10 runs 98% of the Android apps, when they launched the z3 in Indonesia with pretty good results.

    One thing that helps this strategy is imperfect information in the markets. Advertising, complexity and mixed results produce an improvement of perception beyond the reality thanks to the confusion and the ignorance of the buyers.
    Android apps is not strategy primarily to convert hardcore Android or iOS users, or informed tech enthusiast like us. This strategy will be more effective in the low-end segment, and in emerging markets where the buyers are less informed.
    A key element of the strategy is a association of the strong brand "Android" with the product "Lumia xx", this alone would increase sales.
    A big share of the smartphone users, specially in emerging markets, don't need many apps, so even if Android apps don't run that well, they won't notice the problem. Other users need just a few Android apps that don't use very often and could accept an inferior experience in those apps (mi case).
    The increase in market share produced by this strategy will add energy to the system, improving the quality and increasing the number of both native and Android apps.

    If this is to become reality, I expect MS would ignore native Android apps (in the traditional sense of the word, not as it is often used in these forums) and support only those apps written in Java. That accounts for the overwhelming majority of Android apps, with games being the most common exception (although cross platform frameworks like Unity are helping on that front already). I see no reason why Java apps can't perform just as well on WP as they do on Android. However, if that assessment turns out to be correct, I see no reason for companies to spend hundreds of thousands of $$$ developing/updating/maintaining two apps, when they can spend only half that amount by developing just one Android app that runs on both platforms.
    If Android apps work perfectly in WP, with the same level of performance, stability, etc. Then Microsoft has to adopt the Android runtime with the same level of support than Winrt. That means adding APIs on top of the Android runtime, so developers could take advantage of the features of the platform, including custom UI components that follows Metro design.
    The cost of developing a full featured WP app would be reduced to fraction of the current cost. MS would have to impose design guidelines to developers to force them to use the WP APIs and adapt the apps to the platform. For smaller apps the rules could be relaxed.

    While I can think of a few possibilities of how such a regulations-framework might be constructed (I described one here), I'm not sure about the extent of those ideas being practical/possible/legal in reality (mainly due to a lack of information), or if MS is even thinking about something along those lines.
    I agree, they have to enforce restrictions to add more incentives for native development. Android support is just a means to an end. It should be a simple set of rules that produce the desire effect.

    I'm not ready to drop the hammer and say this can't work, but I'm sceptical. I hope MS will convince me otherwise when the time comes.

    I think most people with strong opinions in either direction are judging too hastily. IMHO considering only the technical aspects of Android app compatibility, which is what most here are doing, just isn't enough to make an informed prediction of how this could play out...
    I agree, It's a really hard to tell. There are a lot of things going on with Windows and Microsoft, adding support for Android apps is not a event in the vacuum, the effect would be different if other variables change. What if market share increase with the new OEMs?, what if Universal apps are a big success?, what if the enterprise adopt WP and Windows tablets?. What if Android One phones takes market share from WP?
    Last edited by rodan01; 07-17-2014 at 01:24 AM.
    a5cent likes this.
    07-17-2014 01:13 AM
  8. Craigtrain's Avatar
    dont kid,its top paid apps itself are malware
    windows phone store has much more quality apps
    Keep telling yourself that :)
    07-17-2014 02:30 AM
  9. Karthik Naik's Avatar
    Keep telling yourself that :)
    why dont you go to androidcentral if your soo hellbent of getting others onto how great android is instead of posting wrong stuff about WP :)
    07-17-2014 04:15 AM
  10. Arka1412's Avatar
    dont kid,its top paid apps itself are malware
    windows phone store has much more quality apps
    Ohhh really as far as I know all the top apps of WP totally sucks..eg Facebook, Instagram, Messenger, Skype, WhatsApp etc so how they are quality apps I really doubt..Android maybe a laggy OS but the top apps are quite flawless in it..
    Last edited by Arka1412; 07-17-2014 at 06:23 AM.
    07-17-2014 04:43 AM
  11. a5cent's Avatar
    Microsoft has to improve the perception to increase the market share, It's not necessary to solve the problem perfectly. <snipped> Android apps is not strategy primarily to convert hardcore Android or iOS users, or informed tech enthusiast like us. This strategy will be more effective in the low-end segment, and in emerging markets where the buyers are less informed. A key element of the strategy is a association of the strong brand "Android" with the product "Lumia xx", this alone would increase sales.
    I don't know enough about people's mentalities in various emerging markets (that are important to WP) to have an opinion on how well that would work, but it's certainly an interesting angle I hadn't yet considered. I suspect the effectiveness of advertising and brand association is inversely proportional to a populations average education, so you may have a point.

    If Android apps work perfectly in WP, with the same level of performance, stability, etc. Then Microsoft has to adopt the Android runtime with the same level of support than Winrt. That means adding APIs on top of the Android runtime, so developers could take advantage of the features of the platform, including custom UI components that follows Metro design.
    Yes, I expect MS to adopt Dalvik or ART and provide their own implementation of Android's APIs, essentially making WP GSM compliant (not just AOSP) to the fullest extent that security considerations allow.

    Anything beyond that is taking my statement a bit farther than I meant it to be taken. From my point of view, an Android app works just as well on WP as it does on Android when both perform and behave identically. In my opinion, allowing Android apps to integrate with concepts native to WP (like live tiles) is unnecessary, because most people would consider the app gap as being bridged without that.

    The worst thing about this is not that MS might actually do it, but MS' communications policy. As always it is extremely frustrating. Many of the enthusiasts here on WPC see this as capitulation, and many won't recommend WP as long as it is perceived to be waving a white flag. For developers it's even worse. If I were currently pouring money into WP app development, and couldn't get information about whether or not my app will soon be competing with Android apps, I'd not be amused, to say the least.

    I don't think MS has exhausted their options, but if they believe they have and that Android compatibility is the only way to solve WP's chicken-egg like app problem, then I think they owe it to their supporters to explain this well in advance. This shouldn't be the type of thing where the official announcement starts with: "Surprise!".
    rodan01 likes this.
    07-17-2014 07:21 AM
  12. Ankit Nawlakha's Avatar
    But whats the problem in getting Android apps on Windows Phone???! I'm just asking! I'm neither against it nor in favor of it!
    07-17-2014 10:09 AM
  13. a5cent's Avatar
    But whats the problem in getting Android apps on Windows Phone???! I'm just asking! I'm neither against it nor in favor of it!
    It's been explained all over the place, hasn't it? My post on this page #30 explains some of it. The suspicion is that it's likely to kill almost all WP app development.

    Here's an article that explains why this is potentially a very profound change, and not as some see it: "just some apps running on my phone that previously did not".

    Android apps on Windows Phone would be an ugly capitulation | Ars Technica
    Ankit Nawlakha likes this.
    07-17-2014 10:55 AM
  14. Craigtrain's Avatar
    why dont you go to androidcentral if your soo hellbent of getting others onto how great android is instead of posting wrong stuff about WP :)
    What have I said that is wrong about Windows Phone? I'm not part of the Google hate parade, sorry if that bothers you.
    Arka1412 likes this.
    07-17-2014 11:27 AM
  15. MikeLip's Avatar
    What have I said that is wrong about Windows Phone? I'm not part of the Google hate parade, sorry if that bothers you.
    You overgeneralized about the quality of native Windows apps. I use all three major platforms - iOS, WP and Android. Also BB but sadly they aren't major anymore. The ratio of crap to good apps is about equal between them. If you want to simply count apps and call the platform with the highest number "best" - which is a pretty poor definition of "best" - then yeah, Android wins. But at this point I am pretty sure that with the exception of certain pretty specialized apps, you can do whatever you want to do on any platform. For instance, in my case I often need to use a gerber viewer. Don't ask. Google it. The platforms what have one are Android and Windows - not iOS, not WP, just Windows and Android. So this argument is not only silly and smacks of fanboyism, it's moot. Move on.
    Karthik Naik likes this.
    07-18-2014 08:08 AM
  16. rodan01's Avatar
    Anything beyond that is taking my statement a bit farther than I meant it to be taken. From my point of view, an Android app works just as well on WP as it does on Android when both perform and behave identically. In my opinion, allowing Android apps to integrate with concepts native to WP (like live tiles) is unnecessary, because most people would consider the app gap as being bridged without that.
    I think WP users like Live tiles and the Modern UI, so Microsoft should motivate developers to adapt their Android apps to WP. Developers have incentives too, profits are related to the quality of the app. But, if users have to choose between -Android app without any adaptation- and no app, I think most would choose the former.


    After reading the Elop's email, I think the support for Android apps is less likely:

    ...
    We will be particularly focused on making the market for Windows Phone. In the near term, we plan to drive Windows Phone volume by targeting the more affordable smartphone segments, which are the fastest growing segments of the market, with Lumia. In addition to the portfolio already planned, we plan to deliver additional lower-cost Lumia devices by shifting select future Nokia X designs and products to Windows Phone devices. We expect to make this shift immediately while continuing to sell and support existing Nokia X products.

    To win in the higher price segments, we will focus on delivering great breakthrough products in alignment with major milestones ahead from both the Windows team and the Applications and Services Group. We will ensure that the very best experiences and scenarios from across the company will be showcased on our products. We plan to take advantage of innovation from the Windows team, like Universal Windows Apps, to continue to enrich the Windows application ecosystem. And in the very lowest price ranges, we plan to run our first phones business for maximum efficiency with a smaller team.
    ...
    http://forums.windowscentral.com/e?l...token=BO_YOIER


    Tom Warren backpedaled a bit:

    Faisal B. Ahmed ‏@FaisalBAhmed Jul 17
    @MSFTY @tomwarren IIRC Tom said Android app support is coming

    Tom Warren ‏@tomwarren Jul 17
    @FaisalBAhmed @MSFTY I never specifically said that, no. They have been evaluating it for months
    https://twitter.com/tomwarren/status/489751466786037760

    But, who knows?
    a5cent and BobLobIaw like this.
    07-18-2014 09:56 AM
  17. a5cent's Avatar
    I think WP users like Live tiles and the Modern UI, so Microsoft should motivate developers to adapt their Android apps to WP. Developers have incentives too, profits are related to the quality of the app. But, if users have to choose between -Android app without any adaptation- and no app, I think most would choose the former.
    So how do you think that would impact MS' ability to achieve their goal of universal apps, that they've been working on for the last four years?

    Wouldn't it be ironic, if on the dawn of being able to provide a single API set for all of MS' operating systems, they'd go and introduce an entirely new foreign API, that is controlled by Google, but can also be used to target concepts native to Windows?

    I think MS needs WP app development to kick universal app development into motion. Wouldn't introducing Windows focused APIs on top of the Android APIs cause most developers to develop WP apps solely using the Android APIs, and cause them to leave universal apps by the way side?
    Karthik Naik likes this.
    07-18-2014 10:11 AM
  18. BenGutt's Avatar
    Everyone is thinking it's android on wp, but has anyone thought that maybe Microsoft has come up with a way to port windows phone apps to android?

    That's be a MASSIVE+ to writing for windows phone first and then just exporting to google play? Universal apps across, Windows Phone, Windows tablet, Windows desktop, Android Tablet and Android Phone.

    It's probably not that far fetched, Microsoft can probably translate every API call to the relevant android ones, and as android isn't locked down, as long as you can do it in WP you can do it in android. Following that line of thought, nothing stopping it from being exported to apple either.
    Martsicky, MikeLip, a5cent and 1 others like this.
    07-18-2014 11:05 AM
  19. MikeLip's Avatar
    Everyone is thinking it's android on wp, but has anyone thought that maybe Microsoft has come up with a way to port windows phone apps to android?

    That's be a MASSIVE+ to writing for windows phone first and then just exporting to google play? Universal apps across, Windows Phone, Windows tablet, Windows desktop, Android Tablet and Android Phone.

    It's probably not that far fetched, Microsoft can probably translate every API call to the relevant android ones, and as android isn't locked down, as long as you can do it in WP you can do it in android. Following that line of thought, nothing stopping it from being exported to apple either.
    That's a really interesting idea, on paper. I don't mean writing universal apps - that's definitely a good idea and people have wanted to do that since, I don't know, forever. And I can see where you're going - write for WP, then easily sell to Android. But perhaps not the reverse. That would instantly expand the market for your apps, plus vastly increase the incentive to write for WP. Win-win for MS. I like it. More fart apps for everyone! :) Seriously, yeah. Sounds good. But I'm not sure that's whats meant here. I think the idea was to implement a VM that runs Android, much like BB did. I guess we'll see if it even happens.
    07-18-2014 11:26 AM
  20. a5cent's Avatar
    Everyone is thinking it's android on wp, but has anyone thought that maybe Microsoft has come up with a way to port windows phone apps to android?

    That's be a MASSIVE+ to writing for windows phone first and then just exporting to google play? Universal apps across, Windows Phone, Windows tablet, Windows desktop, Android Tablet and Android Phone.

    It's probably not that far fetched, Microsoft can probably translate every API call to the relevant android ones, and as android isn't locked down, as long as you can do it in WP you can do it in android. Following that line of thought, nothing stopping it from being exported to apple either.
    Yes, I've thought about that too. I don't think it's far fetched. I'm just not sure how good of an experience you could get out of such an app on Android.

    Definitely a much better idea than Android apps on WP. Just wish some leak would be more along those lines.
    07-18-2014 11:48 AM
  21. colinkiama's Avatar
    bsnqe8oiaae-re3.jpg
    Maybe if the universal apps fail then for gdr1 we might have......Android apps on Windows Phone WTF
    07-18-2014 06:10 PM
  22. rodan01's Avatar
    Everyone is thinking it's android on wp, but has anyone thought that maybe Microsoft has come up with a way to port windows phone apps to android?

    That's be a MASSIVE+ to writing for windows phone first and then just exporting to google play? Universal apps across, Windows Phone, Windows tablet, Windows desktop, Android Tablet and Android Phone.

    It's probably not that far fetched, Microsoft can probably translate every API call to the relevant android ones, and as android isn't locked down, as long as you can do it in WP you can do it in android. Following that line of thought, nothing stopping it from being exported to apple either.
    Any impact that you expect from this would happen really slow. Developers won't drop their Android apps to start a new WP app that can also run in Android with an alien UI.
    If you are thinking of reusing c# code but with a native UI for Android, there is a product called Xamarin that already does that.

    The benefit of supporting Android apps in WP is that It would help to close the app gap right now.
    07-18-2014 10:15 PM
  23. rodan01's Avatar
    So how do you think that would impact MS' ability to achieve their goal of universal apps, that they've been working on for the last four years?

    Wouldn't it be ironic, if on the dawn of being able to provide a single API set for all of MS' operating systems, they'd go and introduce an entirely new foreign API, that is controlled by Google, but can also be used to target concepts native to Windows?

    I think MS needs WP app development to kick universal app development into motion. Wouldn't introducing Windows focused APIs on top of the Android APIs cause most developers to develop WP apps solely using the Android APIs, and cause them to leave universal apps by the way side?
    Dependency on Google looks worst than It really is. Android is open source so MS can continue with their own thing if they have to. Because of the fragmentation of Android and the big market share of AOSP, It's unlikely that Google could introduce an incompatible change to impact WP. Developers have to support the old APIs for hundred of millions of users, anyways, so a real impact could take years to materialize.

    APIs aren't an end in itself. If they need to drop Universal apps to get their objectives, they'd do it in a heartbeat. So, the real questions are what is the objective? Is Universal apps a good tool to get there? Or maybe Android apps is a better tool.

    From the few emails of Nadella and Elop, I think they probably want to earn money selling services and hardware in the enterprise market. An end-to-end solution including cloud, office 365, identity, mdm, phones, tablets and PCs. If BYOD is really cooling down, this could be a good opportunity for WP.
    Universal apps would be important because companies can standardize their software for the Windows platform, reusing the code in all the form factors, for a fraction of the cost, and with a consistent user experience. This will be even more appealing with the introduction of the Universal desktop app flavor. They could even build something like the Ubuntu Edge, supporting just Universal apps.

    Although, they still need to sell a lot of phones in the consumer market to keep the product alive with apps and games, accessories and BOYD users. There is a range of users, from those that work all day, to those that spend the whole day in entertainment, It's like a normal distribution. An experience focused exclusively in productivity is too niche, so they need a good consumer experience, not the best but a good one.

    If the priority is the consumer market they have to close the app gap right now, bring those Android apps already and kill that winrt nonsense.
    Last edited by rodan01; 07-18-2014 at 11:47 PM.
    07-18-2014 11:12 PM
  24. Karthik Naik's Avatar
    What have I said that is wrong about Windows Phone? I'm not part of the Google hate parade, sorry if that bothers you.
    You never have anything nice to say about anything non android
    Someone mentions BB,ios or WP and you say android is superior
    07-18-2014 11:48 PM
  25. Craigtrain's Avatar
    You never have anything nice to say about anything non android
    Someone mentions BB,ios or WP and you say android is superior
    I've never mentioned Blackberry, so don't put words in my mouth. As for iOS, I love my iPad and I'm on it all the time.

    There are some things that Android does better than Windows Phone, but that works both ways. Windows Phone is fantastic, and I love my device. If you can't handle my posts then I'd suggest you skip over them.
    07-19-2014 04:09 AM
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