08-08-2014 03:35 AM
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  1. kamikaze80's Avatar
    I know this topic has been discussed to death, but I really question why they even separated Xbox Music from the OS.

    The stated rationale was that by doing so, they could update the app more often, without having to go through the carriers. Great, but it's a music player. How often would it need to be updated? Just get it right the first time, and any updates can wait for the next OS update.

    Why were time and resources spent re-coding an entirely new app that still isn't as good as the existing one? They could have used that time and those resources to add gapless playback, wireless sync, ability to choose artist background images, fix metadata issues, add Last.fm/social media integration, and tweak the UI in the existing music player, and simply included it in WP 8.1. Xbox Music would've been complete, mission accomplished, and it would be out RIGHT NOW.

    Instead, they started from scratch again, it's slower now because it's not native, and we're sitting around waiting for updates in the hope that the app will claw its way back to being as good as it was in WP7, almost 4 years ago. And for what? A music player doesn't need biweekly updates, it just needs to work and look beautiful.
    Kevin Rush and James8561 like this.
    08-05-2014 06:58 PM
  2. hotphil's Avatar
    I'd settle for just working.
    Adding features that don't work seems a strange decision.
    Kevin Rush likes this.
    08-05-2014 07:07 PM
  3. Geddeeee's Avatar
    I know this topic has been discussed to death, but I really question why they even separated Xbox Music from the OS.

    The stated rationale was that by doing so, they could update the app more often, without having to go through the carriers. Great, but it's a music player. How often would it need to be updated? Just get it right the first time, and any updates can wait for the next OS update.

    Why were time and resources spent re-coding an entirely new app that still isn't as good as the existing one? They could have used that time and those resources to add gapless playback, wireless sync, ability to choose artist background images, fix metadata issues, add Last.fm/social media integration, and tweak the UI in the existing music player, and simply included it in WP 8.1. Xbox Music would've been complete, mission accomplished, and it would be out RIGHT NOW.

    Instead, they started from scratch again, it's slower now because it's not native, and we're sitting around waiting for updates in the hope that the app will claw its way back to being as good as it was in WP7, almost 4 years ago. And for what? A music player doesn't need biweekly updates, it just needs to work and look beautiful.
    They seperated it from the OS because it was almost impossible to update or add features. Any time they wanted to add a feature or update it, they would have had to basically rewrite the whole OS. It was so embedded into the OS, they couldn't update the Music part without affecting loads and loads of other OS functions.
    This limitation of the OS showed up when FB updated the way that their app and APIs worked. That is why the People Hub had such limited features and there was no real way to update to keep abreast of all the other FB apps on Android and iOS. It's still why those apps have so many features that WP's app does not yet have. We're still playing 'catch up'.

    As much as the XBM 'fiasco' irks a lot of people, it was necessary to make sure that the updates could be done quickly with little impact to the rest of the OS.
    Just give the XBM team time. They do realise what needs to be done, and I'm sure they will nail it in the end.

    Loads of users don't have my confidence admittedly, but as a developer myself, I know how hard it is if a feature has been too deeply 'embedded' in the OS. Updates are tricky and have knock on effects that can't always be predicted.

    We still have Nokia Music, so use that it meantime if the 'beta' XBox Music is not working for you....
    08-05-2014 07:41 PM
  4. Torontonian22's Avatar
    Well, i do understand that they will "nail it" in the end but when does "in the end" come? As said above, it's just a music app. And even basic things are still done wrong. If the app itself was stable, smooth and working properly, no one would complain that other features are coming late. It's Microsoft we are talking about, no a single developer trying to make a buck by coding an app on his spare time.

    There are competitors out there that have way better music apps then wp does, why not just skip the originality for once and just try to make it work to start with? Then, add new stuff. Unfortunately the app is not getting any better with the updates, which is a tad concerning as they are supposed to know what to fix. But still, it looks like they have no clue about how bad the app really is.

    I use to own a separate mp3 player (a good old iriver h320 aka a brick) and i have to say, that player software is still more efficient than xbox music even if it's more than 8 years old. I use my smartphone to listen to music for the convenience (and it's supposed to be a smartphone so...) but the experience is just terrible. I'm using mixradio most of the time. Even it's mixradio is not design to play your local music, it works smoothly. Not perfect but less frustrating.
    Oranges123 and Kevin Rush like this.
    08-05-2014 08:28 PM
  5. Geddeeee's Avatar
    Well, i do understand that they will "nail it" in the end but when does "in the end" come? As said above, it's just a music app. And even basic things are still done wrong. If the app itself was stable, smooth and working properly, no one would complain that other features are coming late. It's Microsoft we are talking about, no a single developer trying to make a buck by coding an app on his spare time.

    There are competitors out there that have way better music apps then wp does, why not just skip the originality for once and just try to make it work to start with? Then, add new stuff. Unfortunately the app is not getting any better with the updates, which is a tad concerning as they are supposed to know what to fix. But still, it looks like they have no clue about how bad the app really is.

    I use to own a separate mp3 player (a good old iriver h320 aka a brick) and i have to say, that player software is still more efficient than xbox music even if it's more than 8 years old. I use my smartphone to listen to music for the convenience (and it's supposed to be a smartphone so...) but the experience is just terrible. I'm using mixradio most of the time. Even it's mixradio is not design to play your local music, it works smoothly. Not perfect but less frustrating.
    I understand your feelings, which are the same as loads of other users.

    Myself, I do not have all the problems others do with the XBM app. It misses album art from time to time, but I can live without a 'picture' as it plays the tunes fine. If you are trying to sync thousands of tracks, you are going to get problems.

    The thing that really annoys me the most, is the continual complaining and views of 'experts' on these forums who are quite keen to point out the shortcomings with no coherent advice except. "Other apps do it better or why can't it be like Zune or the old Music Hub"... These are not helpful at all. The XBM team have 'fessed up' to the problems with the app, and have tried to apologise and reassure people. But this still isn't good enough for a lot of people.

    If any of you can do better, then write the code and let's see it. A few have tried, and failed.. A few apps are close, but everyone insists on the 'native' app. I really don't understand that point of view at all.

    The fact is if 'in the end' means 2 years, I will wait. If it takes 20 versions to get it perfect or a close as possible, then great, I can be patient.
    If the current app was totally unusable, then people would have a point. But... it does work. It plays music. Maybe it isn't currently up to standard that certain people demand. Then again these people would not be happy if it was perfect. It has 'Microsoft' on the label, so that means it is open to ridicule or abuse. As I said earlier, there are alternatives, so quit whining and use those apps if they are so superior.

    There is a saying: "Flogging a dead horse". The continued criticism and lack of patience, is like digging up the dead horse and flogging the corpse as well.
    It is very tiresome.
    I would say to those people: F**k off to Android or iOS, we really don't need all the negative karma, it's boring. Like a three year throwing a tantrum because mummy won't buy you any sweets...

    We should all be helping WP to get better not complaining like 'spoilt brats'... By the way, complaining is NOT helping. It is counterproductive.
    I would hate to be on WP teams having to read all the hate and childish "You are s**t" comments. I wouldn't be surprised if MS thought 'Screw this', and threw in the towel.

    In the end it may be the users that kill off WP, not market share or perceived 'lack of features'....
    08-05-2014 10:04 PM
  6. hotphil's Avatar
    Myself, I do not have all the problems others do with the XBM app. It misses album art from time to time, but I can live without a 'picture' as it plays the tunes fine. If you are trying to sync thousands of tracks, you are going to get problems.
    No other app/device that has the feature to use embedded album art decides not to do it for my files.
    The fact is if 'in the end' means 2 years, I will wait. If it takes 20 versions to get it perfect or a close as possible, then great, I can be patient.
    I bought a device that claimed to have music playing ability. If it doesn't (once Cyan's on there) then I've been mis-sold and it's going back for a refund.
    If the current app was totally unusable, then people would have a point. But... it does work. It plays music.
    Rarely. And only once I've got past the error messages that might be thrown up after I've had to reset because the splash screen locked up and waited for it to scan the music library again but still decide to show non-present songs.
    As I said earlier, there are alternatives, so quit whining and use those apps if they are so superior.
    Indeed they are. I bought an iPod to get round Windows Phone's music shortcomings. I'm very pleased with it.
    Kevin Rush and techiez like this.
    08-05-2014 10:20 PM
  7. JamesPTao's Avatar
    No other app/device that has the feature to use embedded album art decides not to do it for my files.
    I bought a device that claimed to have music playing ability. If it doesn't (once Cyan's on there) then I've been mis-sold and it's going back for a refund.
    Rarely. And only once I've got past the error messages that might be thrown up after I've had to reset because the splash screen locked up and waited for it to scan the music library again but still decide to show non-present songs.
    Indeed they are. I bought an iPod to get round Windows Phone's music shortcomings. I'm very pleased with it.
    Zune would have been a better choice.
    Kevin Rush likes this.
    08-05-2014 10:26 PM
  8. Geddeeee's Avatar
    No other app/device that has the feature to use embedded album art decides not to do it for my files.
    I bought a device that claimed to have music playing ability. If it doesn't (once Cyan's on there) then I've been mis-sold and it's going back for a refund.
    Rarely. And only once I've got past the error messages that might be thrown up after I've had to reset because the splash screen locked up and waited for it to scan the music library again but still decide to show non-present songs.
    Indeed they are. I bought an iPod to get round Windows Phone's music shortcomings. I'm very pleased with it.
    I understand that some people have problems with XBM which just cannot be circumvented, whatever they do. I do sympathise.
    You obviously are not happy and have demanded a refund, which is your right as a consumer.

    Buying an iPod is lateral thinking. It does exactly what it is advertised to do, and does it very well.....
    08-05-2014 10:28 PM
  9. hotphil's Avatar
    Zune would have been a better choice.
    I always liked the Zune hardware when I got a chance to use it. But as they weren't sold (officially) outside the US, I didn't have the chance to give Microsoft some money.

    Most of the frustrations with Xbox Music, at least for me, come from liking the rest of the platform so much but being badly let down by a sub-par music experience.
    For me, I read lots of comments about features people want (lyrics, playlist sharing, scrubbing, streaming etc) which make me realise that of course, my "wants" will be different from someone else's and I guess the devs will have to work out what to include/exclude. But being able to start the app and play locally-stored music without error has surely got to be the base feature set they need to get right before moving on to advanced items.
    James8561 and Kevin Rush like this.
    08-05-2014 10:36 PM
  10. Jas00555's Avatar
    I think some of the armchair experts in here failed to read the article about starting over. They did it so they can update the app and add any service when they wanted to, such as the locker service for example. It would look bad on them for iOS and Android to get the updates before their own.

    "no one would care if the service was later than other OSes as long as it worked"

    That statement is laughable at best, and ignorant of history at worst. People always complain loudly when they do that "omg, I'm leaving WP, they don't care about their own OS blah, blah, blah. I'm switching to another OS until Microsoft cares about their own OS!!!!"

    "Zune is better"

    No, Xbox music is better in almost every way. The way that Zune worked is that it assumed that your PC was the center of everything, while XBM assumes the cloud (aka the future) is the center point.

    But go on, your armchairs are calling.
    James8561 likes this.
    08-05-2014 10:43 PM
  11. hotphil's Avatar
    Cloud is only part of the future. There are some folk with thousands of $'s invested in physical media who believe they should be able to use it.
    Focussing too heavily on the cloud and sidelining that affluent generation may be short-sighted.
    techiez and Kevin Rush like this.
    08-05-2014 10:52 PM
  12. Jas00555's Avatar
    Cloud is only part of the future. There are some folk with thousands of $'s invested in physical media who believe they should be able to use it.
    Focussing too heavily on the cloud and sidelining that affluent generation may be short-sighted.
    And those people are the minority. Xbox music/Google music/iTunes, they'll all be cloud focused in future. It's the way that everything is going. If you're not a fan of it, you can use another music service. Actually, you can do that now. There are a few music apps that just play your own music and don't use the cloud.
    08-05-2014 10:54 PM
  13. klkokke's Avatar
    And those people are the minority. Xbox music/Google music/iTunes, they'll all be cloud focused in future. It's the way that everything is going. If you're not a fan of it, you can use another music service. Actually, you can do that now. There are a few music apps that just play your own music and don't use the cloud.
    All I know is that I di t complain about the separation and my phone still worked fine (L1520)'but after the update 1, it got a lot worse and now it crashes consistently and the Bluetooth through my car stereo is almost pointless. I understand growing pains and making the transition, but you need to realize people use their phone for music too, local or cloud based, and it needs to work or at least not freeze.
    Kevin Rush likes this.
    08-05-2014 11:02 PM
  14. TonyDedrick's Avatar
    And those people are the minority. Xbox music/Google music/iTunes, they'll all be cloud focused in future. It's the way that everything is going. If you're not a fan of it, you can use another music service. Actually, you can do that now. There are a few music apps that just play your own music and don't use the cloud.
    So you believe there are more people using the cloud to listen to their music than there are loading music onto their devices?
    08-05-2014 11:08 PM
  15. Jas00555's Avatar
    All I know is that I di t complain about the separation and my phone still worked fine (L1520)'but after the update 1, it got a lot worse and now it crashes consistently and the Bluetooth through my car stereo is almost pointless. I understand growing pains and making the transition, but you need to realize people use their phone for music too, local or cloud based, and it needs to work or at least not freeze.
    Your phone not working after unfinalized RTM code is on your phone and what I'm saying are two completely different things.
    08-05-2014 11:09 PM
  16. TonyDedrick's Avatar
    I think some of the armchair experts in here failed to read the article about starting over. They did it so they can update the app and add any service when they wanted to, such as the locker service for example. It would look bad on them for iOS and Android to get the updates before their own.

    "no one would care if the service was later than other OSes as long as it worked"

    That statement is laughable at best, and ignorant of history at worst. People always complain loudly when they do that "omg, I'm leaving WP, they don't care about their own OS blah, blah, blah. I'm switching to another OS until Microsoft cares about their own OS!!!!"

    "Zune is better"

    No, Xbox music is better in almost every way. The way that Zune worked is that it assumed that your PC was the center of everything, while XBM assumes the cloud (aka the future) is the center point.

    But go on, your armchairs are calling.
    I read the article and the app still stinks.
    Kevin Rush likes this.
    08-05-2014 11:10 PM
  17. Jas00555's Avatar
    So you believe there are more people using the cloud to listen to their music than there are loading music onto their devices?
    I don't recall saying that. If I did, please enlighten me. All I said was that cloud is the future and Microsoft separated the music app from the OS so it could change things (like adding more cloud) cross-platform and simultaneously, as opposed to their own OS lagging behind.
    08-05-2014 11:11 PM
  18. Jas00555's Avatar
    I read the article and the app still stinks.
    Again, you keep putting words in my mouth. Why? Is there a reason? I know the app is currently not great, but that has nothing to do with what I wrote.
    08-05-2014 11:12 PM
  19. TonyDedrick's Avatar
    I don't recall saying that. If I did, please enlighten me. All I said was that cloud is the future and Microsoft separated the music app from the OS so it could change things (like adding more cloud) cross-platform and simultaneously, as opposed to their own OS lagging behind.
    So the minority in your post was referring to cloud users? If so, I apologize for misreading your words
    08-05-2014 11:19 PM
  20. TonyDedrick's Avatar
    Again, you keep putting words in my mouth. Why? Is there a reason? I know the app is currently not great, but that has nothing to do with what I wrote.
    Its more in response to the tone of your post. It comes off as if anyone critiquing the app is in some way off base.
    Oranges123, Kevin Rush and sectime like this.
    08-05-2014 11:21 PM
  21. Jas00555's Avatar
    So the minority in your post was referring to cloud users? If so, I apologize for misreading your words
    I was talking about how in the future, people who do their music listening locally will be the minority. Microsoft, Google, and Apple don't want you to own your music, they want you to rent their music from them. I personally don't care if it makes it cheaper for me to listen to music, but the people who will want to own thousands of songs locally will be the minority. The upcoming locker feature is just a way for people to transfer to the cloud. I realize that currently there are more people that buy music as opposed to streaming, but with the rise of things such as Pandora, Spotify, and Netflix, its very obvious that people are willing to sacrifice owning something for convenience and price.
    08-05-2014 11:23 PM
  22. Jas00555's Avatar
    Its more in response to the tone of your post. It comes off as if anyone critiquing the app is in some way off base.
    I'm not saying the app isn't bad. I definitely think they need to make it faster, but I was referring to the OP where he was asking why they separated the app from the OS and to people claiming that they were ok with the service lagging behind in features if it worked.
    08-05-2014 11:25 PM
  23. hotphil's Avatar
    Streaming has some attractive features. But there are large parts of the world outside the US. And in those markets, cellular and/or WiFi coverage (if and where available) might be prohibitively expensive. A combination of local storage and streaming is going to be around for at least another couple of decades. That is, for the companies interested in letting customers give them money.
    08-05-2014 11:40 PM
  24. Jas00555's Avatar
    Just to clarify, when I say "the cloud" I don't necessarily mean streaming. When I say "locally" I mean, people actually owning the music, like CDs and stuff. I, myself, embrace the cloud, but I don't have the data to stream everything. I do, however, download the DRM'd music from the cloud and play that, and all of those purchases are saved in the cloud. That's still utilizing the cloud. I'm still renting those songs. I'm not saying that most people will move to streaming, but they will move to the cloud.
    08-05-2014 11:49 PM
  25. fardream's Avatar
    The fact is if 'in the end' means 2 years, I will wait.
    2 years means $198 music pass before tax - it looks absolutely outrageous to ask people for $200 dollars to use a terrible app.
    08-06-2014 12:09 AM
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