08-27-2014 06:46 AM
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  1. AG VK's Avatar
    Delusional? Windows phone sales have already surpassed iPhones in 24 countries, a long time ago! Also in those countries iPhone's sales keep on decreasing with windows increasing! Apple has sold many 5C & 5S, but the worldwide market share keeps on decreasing from 17% in 2012 to 13% in 2013! Windows & android's share have increased! Buying an apple product is definitely not worth the money! That's what most of the people think in at least those 24 countries! Whatever I said in my previous posts are facts!
    Another fact, since you seem to be so concerned with them: Apple reported $45 billion revenue and $10b profit in 14Q2 (fiscal) while MS made 24 billion revenue and 8 billion profit. That means:

    1. Apple is worth twice as much as MS. Regardless of your nonsense about sales increasing (and that would be in third world countries where people are buying L520s or whatever, so doesn't really mean much for the ecosystem or for revenue), this means Apple is twice the size of MS - heck, the iPhone business in that quarter was probably worth more than the whole of Microsoft.

    2. MS' profit margin seems to be 33% while Apple's is 22%. So by your logic MS should reduce their prices to be more competitive, since they have more margin.
    psoham777 likes this.
    08-26-2014 04:51 AM
  2. prasath1234's Avatar
    The moment Apple iPhone 6 is released let's see what will be the percentage of ios in us nd worldwide it will smash all records.android will falter in high end like packs of cards.everybody waiting for large screen iPhones even though it cost you a fortune.

    Sent from my C2305 using WPCentral Forums mobile app
    08-26-2014 05:33 AM
  3. psoham777's Avatar
    With the release of iPhone 6, it will just increase the price bar of all the phones! As long as it does not come up with cheaper phones, its sales won't increase much!
    Also Samsung makes RAM components for apple! So if anyone is having an iPhone & if its working smoothly then everybody must thank Samsung! Also worldwide there are 80% of android phone users, so at least for the next 5 years no OS could surpass it or even touch it!
    08-26-2014 06:47 AM
  4. prasath1234's Avatar
    With the release of iPhone 6, it will just increase the price bar of all the phones! As long as it does not come up with cheaper phones, its sales won't increase much!
    Also Samsung makes RAM components for apple! So if anyone is having an iPhone & if its working smoothly then everybody must thank Samsung! Also worldwide there are 80% of android phone users, so at least for the next 5 years no OS could surpass it or even touch it!
    Price war will not touch for all phones. It would only rise the price of flagship devices.now Chinese oem are giving tough chase for super brands in India.I meant Samsung here.Apple will always win because of fan boys who can spend even 2000$ for iPhone.because it's worth the price.they can sell their iPhone's at very good value after some years.nobody can compete with Apple in maintaining premium price tag it is Porsche of smartphone.in India it is status symbol or device to flaunt.long lived Apple nd their brand.

    Sent from my C2305 using WPCentral Forums mobile app
    08-26-2014 06:59 AM
  5. psoham777's Avatar
    Another fact, since you seem to be so concerned with them: Apple reported $45 billion revenue and $10b profit in 14Q2 (fiscal) while MS made 24 billion revenue and 8 billion profit. That means:

    1. Apple is worth twice as much as MS. Regardless of your nonsense about sales increasing (and that would be in third world countries where people are buying L520s or whatever, so doesn't really mean much for the ecosystem or for revenue), this means Apple is twice the size of MS - heck, the iPhone business in that quarter was probably worth more than the whole of Microsoft.

    2. MS' profit margin seems to be 33% while Apple's is 22%. So by your logic MS should reduce their prices to be more competitive, since they have more margin.
    Apple sells their phones 5-7 times higher than their production price, & I don't really it they sell it 10 times higher! My point is its missing out basic features like Bluetooth sharing, NFC, micro sd card support etc. In todays world, even the worst phone has it but a costly iPhone doesn't! For an OS to excel, it should also have low end phones, not always high end phones! Android is popular because its cheap & customizable, whereas an iPhone is not! Windows phones are just cheap, not customizable like Android! Same goes out with apple's iPads too!
    08-26-2014 07:14 AM
  6. a5cent's Avatar
    Another fact, since you seem to be so concerned with them.
    I'm glad we all concern ourselves with facts! As such, let's first acknowledge that psham777 actually does have his/her facts straight. You may feel that WP outselling iOS in 24 nations, or iOS' shrinking market share are irrelevant for whatever reasons, but those are nevertheless the facts.

    This dispute isn't about the facts however. It's about how to interpret them. Smack downs are in order when people are clueless or lack the facts. That isn't what we have here.

    It is true that iPhone sales numbers have been in decline these last few quarters (in absolut terms, not just market share), and although I'd be very surprised if the iP6 doesn't give Apple a nice sales bump, that overall trend is likely to continue, precisely because Apple prices their products out of the markets that are still growing.

    Without price reductions and a modern mid-range, Apple's market share will continue to shrink (overall), even if the iP6 is a hit. At least that is how every market in the past has behaved, as it developed towards commoditisation.

    I don't recall psham777 saying that Apple was failing financially, which is what most seem to think was said. I think Apple can be financially successful and still fail in other ways though (innovation, features, market share, brand image, etc) I think that is psham777's main point.

    The only issue I'd completely disagree with is the notion that Apple should sell their high-end devices for less, when market conditions don't require them to.

    EDIT: saw psham777's above response only after posting.
    08-26-2014 07:27 AM
  7. psoham777's Avatar
    Price war will not touch for all phones. It would only rise the price of flagship devices.now Chinese oem are giving tough chase for super brands in India.I meant Samsung here.Apple will always win because of fan boys who can spend even 2000$ for iPhone.because it's worth the price.they can sell their iPhone's at very good value after some years.nobody can compete with Apple in maintaining premium price tag it is Porsche of smartphone.in India it is status symbol or device to flaunt.long lived Apple nd their brand.

    Sent from my C2305 using WPCentral Forums mobile app
    A status symbol in India? Are you kidding me? In which world are you living? It was a status symbol years before, even before android came, & during its early arrival! Many of my friends who own an iPhone 5, 5s, iPods, iPads, all of them regret buying apple! They just say they were crazy buying apple & its not worth the money! Even I was once crazy& thought that I would buy an iPhone, but my friends told not to waste money on it & also they are the one's who advice others to never buy an apple product! Yes crazy fans buy apple, but only those who haven't used an apple product before & also their craziness is lost after spending so much money! Yes, if iPhones would have been mid ranged phones then definitely nobody would buy Android! But that's not the case & I think it would never be that way! Apple never competes with other companies, it sets its own price tag! Chinese companies are selling their best phones in India at a very cheap price, hence they are in a lot of buzz now a days, many people even say that these companies go in huge losses but still they keep their phones' prices low
    08-26-2014 07:32 AM
  8. psoham777's Avatar
    I'm glad we all concern ourselves with facts! As such, let's first acknowledge that psham777 actually does have his/her facts straight. You may feel that WP outselling iOS in 24 nations, or iOS' shrinking market share are irrelevant for whatever reasons, but those are nevertheless the facts.

    This dispute isn't about the facts however. It's about how to interpret them. Smack downs are in order when people are clueless or lack the facts. That isn't what we have here.

    It is true that iPhone sales numbers have been in decline these last few quarters (in absolut terms, not just market share), and although I'd be very surprised if the iP6 doesn't give Apple a nice sales bump, that overall trend is likely to continue, precisely because Apple prices their products out of the markets that are still growing.

    Without price reductions and a modern mid-range, Apple's market share will continue to shrink (overall), even if the iP6 is a hit. At least that is how every market in the past has behaved, as it developed towards commoditisation.

    I don't recall psham777 saying that Apple was failing financially, which is what most seem to think was said. I think Apple can be financially successful and still fail in other ways though (innovation, features, market share, brand image, etc) I think that is psham777's main point.

    The only issue I'd completely disagree with is the notion that Apple should sell their high-end devices for less, when market conditions don't require them to.

    EDIT: saw psham777's above response only after posting.
    Thanks, at least you could understand me! & it's not that apple should reduce the price of current iPhones, It should come up with a phone of lower specs & sell it at a lower price, even that could save their shrinking market share
    08-26-2014 07:35 AM
  9. AG VK's Avatar
    Thanks, at least you could understand me! & it's not that apple should reduce the price of current iPhones, It should come up with a phone of lower specs & sell it at a lower price, even that could save their shrinking market share
    Price doesn't really matter in the American market and some others. In the USA, VZW has the iPhone 5S for $99 with 2-year contract. The M8 for Windows, S5 and Android M8 are also priced the same way. With VZW and ATT (the 2 largest carriers), you don't really save much if you bring your own phone and pay monthly. Effectively, they all cost the same. I understand that it does matter in India and elsewhere, which is why Apple doesn't see much success outside the first-world nations.
    08-26-2014 08:39 AM
  10. psoham777's Avatar
    Price doesn't really matter in the American market and some others. In the USA, VZW has the iPhone 5S for $99 with 2-year contract. The M8 for Windows, S5 and Android M8 are also priced the same way. With VZW and ATT (the 2 largest carriers), you don't really save much if you bring your own phone and pay monthly. Effectively, they all cost the same. I understand that it does matter in India and elsewhere, which is why Apple doesn't see much success outside the first-world nations.
    Some people really wonder that its really good to get a phone on contract at a cheaper price & here many people ask the experts the same question! Answer? No! suppose an iPhone costs $500 & you buy it on contract for $99 for 2 years, you cannot violate the contract or you have to pay the price! You use your iPhone for 2 years, you think that you are in profit because u paid less, but actually its not! From whichever carrier u buy, it sees to it that you pay the phone price, might b due to your phone bills, or any other way! That goes with all the carriers t-mobile, sprint, Verizon, At&t or any other carrier! & its always more than the phone price, say $520-550! Here in India pay the price once & the phone is yours, nothing more, so it'll cost ₹30000($500) only, not more! There are still Emi options available on some phones! But still you people have got the advantage that sometimes phones are available at a very low price without any contract!
    08-26-2014 10:52 AM
  11. prasath1234's Avatar
    No way I dispute the fact is Apple is status symbol that's why it is preferred by all Indians.you can see even 4 yr old iPhone is selling like hot cakes or New iPhone's are selling crazily on olx nd other used phone portals.everybody are saying once if u go Apple you will not touch any os.so Apple is like star or moon for Indians.they aspire nd own even old generation iPhone's like iPhone 4.so Ya that way Apple has market share.

    Sent from my C2305 using WPCentral Forums mobile app
    08-26-2014 11:04 AM
  12. fardream's Avatar
    No. Their WP efforts operate at a loss of a couple hundred million each quarter. If you think you can derive anything about WP's future from that you'd be mistaken however.
    Curious where you got the "a couple hundred million each quarter" - it's a big number. I read all their quarterly reports and cannot find any reference to that... Unless of course you somehow included Nokia into the mix.
    08-26-2014 11:28 AM
  13. psoham777's Avatar
    No way I dispute the fact is Apple is status symbol that's why it is preferred by all Indians.you can see even 4 yr old iPhone is selling like hot cakes or New iPhone's are selling crazily on olx nd other used phone portals.everybody are saying once if u go Apple you will not touch any os.so Apple is like star or moon for Indians.they aspire nd own even old generation iPhone's like iPhone 4.so Ya that way Apple has market share.

    Sent from my C2305 using WPCentral Forums mobile app
    That's my point, in India people buy 4 year old iPhone because its available at a cheaper price & that's the reason windows phone sales have crossed that of iPhone sales in India before 2 years! & you really sound like you don't live in this world, you sound much like when people got to know about iPhones probably 4-5 years back
    08-26-2014 11:43 AM
  14. a5cent's Avatar
    Curious where you got the "a couple hundred million each quarter" - it's a big number. I read all their quarterly reports and cannot find any reference to that... Unless of course you somehow included Nokia into the mix.
    The reason you can't find a reference is because MS doesn't make those numbers public, which is also why my estimate is so vague.

    Anyway, for Microsoft's FY13 Q4 their EDD (entertainment and devices division) reported the following:

    "Research and development expenses increased $432 million or 28%, reflecting $246 million higher headcount-related expenses, resulting mainly from increased headcount in connection with the Xbox platform and Skype."

    So, that reveals that for 2013 MS' EDD had R&D expenses of roughly 1.974 billion (for FY13 MS' total operating expenses were around 30 billion). How that is distributed across the three groups is anyone's guess, but a good chunk of it will be going towards WP, as they are the only group actually developing an OS. So, just R&D is already at least a 100 million per quarter, likely more. That doesn't yet include WP's marketing expenses, which can themselves easily reach 200 million per quarter (for FY13 MS spent 15 billion on sales & marketing).

    None of this yet considers the affects of the Nokia acquisition. I'm not sure how that factors in, but it appears MS is only keeping that part of Nokia which ran a deficit, so that will add even more expenses, but I have no idea to what extent.

    The result of all this is a number as vague as "a few hundred million".

    BTW:

    In 2013 WP wasn't yet free, so it generated revenues. These are estimated to have been around 0.8 billion (this is the best breakdown I've seen so far). But this doesn't factor into this calculation, as it was completely offset by the billion MS paid to Nokia for their "joint strategic initiatives".

    In 2014 WP is now free, so those 0.8 billion are lost, but MS is also no longer required to make those payments to Nokia. That roughly cancels out, so MS is left "only" with the R&D and marketing expenses + the expenses for Nokia.
    08-26-2014 08:22 PM
  15. fardream's Avatar
    The reason you can't find a reference is because MS doesn't make those numbers public, which is also why my estimate is so vague.

    Anyway, for Microsoft's FY13 Q4 their EDD (entertainment and devices division) reported the following:

    "Research and development expenses increased $432 million or 28%, reflecting $246 million higher headcount-related expenses, resulting mainly from increased headcount in connection with the Xbox platform and Skype."

    So, that reveals that for 2013 MS' EDD had R&D expenses of roughly 1.974 billion (for FY13 MS' total operating expenses were around 30 billion). How that is distributed across the three groups is anyone's guess, but a good chunk of it will be going towards WP, as they are the only group actually developing an OS. So, just R&D is already at least a 100 million per quarter, likely more. That doesn't yet include WP's marketing expenses, which can themselves easily reach 200 million per quarter (for FY13 MS spent 15 billion on sales & marketing).

    None of this yet considers the affects of the Nokia acquisition. I'm not sure how that factors in, but it appears MS is only keeping that part of Nokia which ran a deficit, so that will add even more expenses, but I have no idea to what extent.

    The result of all this is a number as vague as "a few hundred million".

    BTW:

    In 2013 WP wasn't yet free, so it generated revenues. These are estimated to have been around 0.8 billion (this is the best breakdown I've seen so far). But this doesn't factor into this calculation, as it was completely offset by the billion MS paid to Nokia for their "joint strategic initiatives".

    In 2014 WP is now free, so those 0.8 billion are lost, but MS is also no longer required to make those payments to Nokia. That roughly cancels out, so MS is left "only" with the R&D and marketing expenses + the expenses for Nokia.
    My suggestion is to learn some accounting and finance stuff before speculating.... Good luck...
    08-27-2014 02:43 AM
  16. AG VK's Avatar
    That's my point, in India people buy 4 year old iPhone because its available at a cheaper price & that's the reason windows phone sales have crossed that of iPhone sales in India before 2 years! & you really sound like you don't live in this world, you sound much like when people got to know about iPhones probably 4-5 years back
    His description of the Indian user's perceptions are accurate. People do think an ancient 4 or 4S is better than an S5 or Lumia at the same price range. Apple has that sort of brand value and this is how consumers across the world think. Nobody cares that iPhones don't have SD slots, NFC and so on. I think it's WP which is actually missing many useful features, such as the ability to attach arbitrary files to email.

    Your post is incoherent and does not really have a point (as usual). Can you try and explain a little more clearly and perhaps avoid ending each sentence with an exclamation mark as well?
    prasath1234 likes this.
    08-27-2014 03:09 AM
  17. bilzkh's Avatar
    By its nature Windows Phone shouldn't be all that expensive for Microsoft. At the end of the day it's developed once and then deployed to consumers. It was probably an OK business when Microsoft was selling licenses, but the challenge now is having to support it while it's given to OEMs for free. In addition, Microsoft will also have to cover some hardware development and support (e.g. firmware) on its own in-house devices. That probably isn't a big deal when it's a matter of supporting 1 or 2 core devices (e.g. Surface and Surface Pro), but dealing with Lumia 5xx, 6xx, 7xx, 8xx, 9xx, 10xx, 13xx, 15xx and the sub-regional variants (-5, -6, etc)? That's tough.

    In sum, Microsoft can't sell OS licenses and it'll be a while before selling services on Windows Phone will truly begin to see dividends, especially for Bing and Office. So, how can Windows Phone make money?

    Answer: Hardware.

    Unless your aim was to use Windows Phone to deliver services, then having to bite the cost and push it for free is fine. But I don't think the current Microsoft leadership has that kind of patience. They'll need hardware.

    Basically Microsoft needs to build an efficient and profitable phone hardware business. They need to think like one of them OEMs. I think it'd be best if they focus their efforts on a simple assortment of devices, i.e. a low-end, a mid-end and a high-end. A good idea would be to mimic the Moto E (sub-$100), Moto G (sub-$200) and one premium uber-phone with the best specs and optics to handle the latest iPhone.
    08-27-2014 04:41 AM
  18. psoham777's Avatar
    His description of the Indian user's perceptions are accurate. People do think an ancient 4 or 4S is better than an S5 or Lumia at the same price range. Apple has that sort of brand value and this is how consumers across the world think. Nobody cares that iPhones don't have SD slots, NFC and so on. I think it's WP which is actually missing many useful features, such as the ability to attach arbitrary files to email.

    Your post is incoherent and does not really have a point (as usual). Can you try and explain a little more clearly and perhaps avoid ending each sentence with an exclamation mark as well?
    There are around 5-6% iPhone users here in India, so nowadays people buying a 4 yr old iPhone has become very rare. People used to think that iPhones were better than S5 or other high end phones but now that's certainly not the case. iPhones were considered as a brand value, but that was years before. Apple doesn't provide any service here in India & its not gonna happen any time soon, also apple really doesn't care about it. So people tend to buy other phones, not only windows share has increased here in India but other companies like Micromax, LG, Sony, Motorola & many other companies are doing quite well here in India. Even Chinese companies like xiaomi, gionee are selling large number of phones here.
    08-27-2014 06:46 AM
  19. a5cent's Avatar
    My suggestion is to learn some accounting and finance stuff before speculating.... Good luck...
    lol. That comment definitely says more about you than it does about me. Get back to me when you have a worthwhile point to make.

    Reading financial reports isn't called speculating BTW. It's all there, so anyone can point out what they disagree with.

    Whatever issues you have (even if they are valid), they won't change anything about the estimate itself. According to the most conservative estimates, MS spent at least a billion on WP8 marketing in 2013 (Forbes mentioned between 1.5 and 1.8 billion). That would already account for a few hundred million per quarter all by itself.
    08-27-2014 06:46 AM
44 12

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