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12-27-2014 08:30 AM
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  1. Pierre Blackwell's Avatar
    Another note is you have to get to know the ecosystem. iOS and Android are similar in many aspects. WP is completely different. You need to know how to navigate around it. I think FB beta is as good as any FB app on iOS or Android, but the way that WP integrates the social networking experience is what realm separates it. If 6tag and third party apps like it were explained to non WP users as an equivalent, people wouldn't be so put off. I don't even have to open my facebook, twitter, or linkd apps to see what's going on with them. Cortana, Cortana, and more Cortana. I think Windows 10 has the potential of helping WP especially if they end up implementing Cortana on the desktop.
    snowmutt likes this.
    10-13-2014 12:23 AM
  2. Visa Declined's Avatar
    I saw this picture today, and it irritated the hell out of me. I know that young people love iPhones, but c'mon...every single person in this picture has one. I don't see things in the US ever changing. iPhones are hip and cool, and that's what all the kids want.

    kvogq2y_640x480.jpg
    snowmutt, chezm and lkcbharath like this.
    10-13-2014 12:23 AM
  3. Largg's Avatar
    If Microsoft really wants WP to grow into a serious competitor, it will have to bite the bullet and put a trained sales person in every Verizon, ATT, T-Mobile and Sprint store.

    Sales people want sales, any sales, EASY sales so if I am a customer and I walk into a your store ready to buy a phone an iPhone like my buddies that sale person is going to take my money send me out the door with a new iPhone. At this stage of the game its the only way I see Microsoft turning the tide in their favor is to have someone there ready to show that retail customer the advantages of WP over IOS.

    What surprises me is I thought once WP got going they would make conquest sales through corporate America. I thought Microsoft would leverage their relationship as a tools vendor to corporate developers through extensions to the tools developers already use to make WP connections and apps.

    It hasn't happened, or at least I don't see it happening. I know these things take time but after a few years you'd think you would start to see an impact.
    I don't see or hear of companies announcing "We have a new mobile extension for our corporate app. To take advantage of it you need WP, we have joined Microsoft to get you cool Nokia phones on the cheap, does everything iPhone does with a bigger screen."

    Maybe I got it wrong thinking it would be easy for a corporate developer to get extensions to software tools he has been using for years and make custom windows apps.
    Laura Knotek and chezm like this.
    10-13-2014 12:24 AM
  4. cckgz4's Avatar
    I've found that hardware and app support has been a lot of the things I see or hear about. Even though we might have an app, they're not updated to the same versions as on competitors. Even native Microsoft services might perform better on the competition's devices.

    Sent from one of these devices hanging around here....
    10-13-2014 02:02 AM
  5. snowmutt's Avatar
    Okay, most of what is said here is dead on. I am in the minority though. I think this "app gap" is a handy excuse. Banking and to a lesser degree medical apps are extremely lacking on WP, and I see those as reasons. So are some handy ones- a Nook app, credit card readers, local business apps and some other examples.

    But have you ever paid attention to how your friends and family actually use their phones? My wife has about a hundred apps loaded, and ends up deleting them never even opened. Most of my closest friends never really change their home screens from when they bought their phones. Our social apps HAVE to improve, but that is not an app gap problem- they are available. That is an issue of those app developers getting motivated to improve the apps on the store.

    This "Microsoft isn't cool" may have been true at the start of this century, but I don't see it now. No one rememebers Windows Mobile, Vista, the legal problems of the late 90's, or the Kin anymore. MS is seen as the Windows 7 computers company that also has the 2nd most popular gaming system. Heck- people know XBOX Music is through W7. I hate to break it to everyone: But Google ain't "cool" either. It is just succesful.

    Mind share is the problem. Period. WP may be the third OS, but more people know what BlackBerry is long before Windows Phone. When it comes to Mobile, how does MS break through to get the consumer to give WP a chance? That is the first, second, and last problem. Everything else takes care of itself. If MS can get India, China, the U.S., and maybe a few other markets (Germany? Not as up on Europe these days, sorry.) to break the 10% sales barrier in the next couple years, then we see no more of these threads. I think something to the tune of 1.3 billion smartphones were sold in 2013. The vast majority of those were sold in the top 8 or so markets.

    We do not see it, but honestly I think MS is doing this right. This isn't a dying market. This is a mature market. But because it is a mature one, that means growth is slowing down and that brand loyalty (in this case, OS loyalty) has been established, making a new OS a tough, long sell. I still see WP taking off. It seems it is more of a 6-7 year flight plan instead of the 3-4 year one MS was planning on when they launched it in 2010.
    Byrese likes this.
    10-13-2014 05:30 AM
  6. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    I can think of several reasons:

    1. Preexisting consumer-oriented ecosystem. AAPL had iPod and Google had search/gmail/etc. Both of them were able to leverage their existing consumer brands into phones. MSFT had no consumer-oriented ecosystem. Windows is thought of as a more "productive" environment (which, I believe, will make a comeback soon in the minds of consumers). MSFT tried to leverage that productive brand with Win8, by making it look like Windows Phone, and failed miserably.

    2. No massive advertising blitz. How many distinctive Android ("Ddddrrrroooiiiiddd") ads did you see on TV five years ago when Android first came out? They were everywhere. It also helped that carriers made more money when they sold Android phones than they did from iPhones.

    3. Only one real WP OEM, Nokia, and now that's the house brand. Fewer players means less advertising (see item #2 above).

    4. There is a concerted effort by MSFT competitors to keep MSFT out of the phone and tablet space. Google being the most egregious with their YouTube/Gmail crap.

    The counter to the "what's wrong with WP" for another company would be "what's wrong with Mac/OSX?". AAPL has a huge consumer base in iPod, iPhone, and iPad yet that hasn't translated to increased Mac sales. Windows still holds 90+% of the productive computer market even with the Win8 disaster. I expected that to change by now but it hasn't.
    I agree with everything you're saying except the last bit. Macs are not in large companies (MS strong holds) simply because of costs. If CEOs had their way they'd have Macs and most probably do. From a cost point of view a PC is good enough to get the job done, so why have Macs, in some cases 3-4 times the price, to do simple tasks? There's many companies who have 7 year old computers and have no plans to upgrade them any time soon. I've actually worked at one so I'm not lying.

    So cost is the only factor as to why PCs still out weighs Macs. From a personal computing aspect I see more people with Macs these days than PCs. Go to any university or college and you'll see mostly Macs. People prefer Macs. I get told constantly they most people like a Mac over a PC because they like the interface and how easy it is to do things. I've never personally used one but most people once they do never go back to PC 95% of the time.

    I'm also talking places that can afford Macs by the way. So yes, I know there's many places that the affordability of a Mac is impossible, like the iPhone.
    10-13-2014 06:02 AM
  7. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    I'll add my two cents into this argument.

    Where to start....

    WP had to three options when it released. It could come out with something like Android, something like iOS or something in between. When it first released it was sort of more iOS but with a touch more flexibility. In essence you could say it was the in between but not quite. It was missing loads of functionality.

    To me it seemed like MS didn't really know who their target market was, well consumers, they wanted to be the next Apple, that didn't happen.. WP8 released without any enterprise support, it's support is still poor. Why you would do that I have no idea. So it missed out on probably it's largest market by doing that, big mistake. Most companies have gone to iPhones and Android because they're more friendly with enterprise. Can you believe that?

    There have been lots of hardware issues. We don't really know the numbers but it probably didn't help. We also have poor OEM and carrier support

    With WP8.1 they fixed some things. It's not perfect by any stretch but had they released this at the beginning more people might have warmed to WP. We also have the constant fiddling with the OS, with the soon to be released W10.

    So on the whole we have a platform that nobody is really sure about. Reviewers have questioned who the platform is for and where does WP really sit?

    Add in the fact that there is (yes say it with me now) an app gap. I'm talking about mainstream apps by the original developers. Not 3rd party apps. This is an image problem for WP. If you have developers avoiding your ecosystem or not putting in effort to upgrade the existing ones then you're losing a lot of people just on that alone.

    You may not want the latest game or app but you want to know if it's available and up to date if you do want it. This would make selling WP a lot easier because people would be willing to give it a go. If people knew they could get what they want, even if they don't want it right away. This is what people miss when we talk about app gap.

    To add one more thing to that app gap issue. Any place I see that has an app, 99% of the time does not have a WP app and no, the website usually isn't that friendly on mobile devices. It's not the same experience so stop saying that. Again, this causes issues for WP. Lack of support by companies and devs is obvious.

    So what do we have is. An OS that's not really finished. Hardware that's been finicky and questionable. Mainstream developers avoid making apps for it. Carriers who don't want to sell it or support it. No real enterprise solution.

    Why is WP not doing well. I think I just explained it.
    Last edited by N_LaRUE; 10-13-2014 at 07:21 AM.
    10-13-2014 06:20 AM
  8. Bodeanicus's Avatar
    I saw this picture today, and it irritated the hell out of me. I know that young people love iPhones, but c'mon...every single person in this picture has one. I don't see things in the US ever changing. iPhones are hip and cool, and that's what all the kids want.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    While fads and "hip" factor does effect sales, people choose Apple because it's a quality experience. Top tier hardware, mature first class apps, mature ecosystem, first class customer service, and a marketing team who isn't completely clueless. Apple deserves their success, they've done almost everything right, and most of their customers are very happy. Microsoft has bungled Windows Phone to the point where I honestly think it can't be salvaged. The sad thing is it didn't have to be that way.
    FinancialP, iamtim and MikeX74 like this.
    10-13-2014 07:40 AM
  9. Mike Gibson's Avatar
    The vast majority of my 15 year-old daughter's friends have iPhones so that photo is perfectly reasonable (even though it's staged). My daughter is a bit of a rebel with her Galaxy Note II. One issue she's had is group messaging with iPhone friends and other iPhone-Android oddities.

    The strange thing is that, as I noted in an earlier reply to this thread, while the mobile device of choice for the kids is an iPhone, that hasn't translated to the computer being used. Most kids still use a Windows computer to get school stuff done. Maybe N_LaRue is right and cost is the only issue. However, it may simply be conventional wisdom: mobile == iPhone/Android, production == Windows.
    10-13-2014 07:54 AM
  10. Bodeanicus's Avatar
    I agree with everything you're saying except the last bit. Macs are not in large companies (MS strong holds) simply because of costs. If CEOs had their way they'd have Macs and most probably do. From a cost point of view a PC is good enough to get the job done, so why have Macs, in some cases 3-4 times the price, to do simple tasks? There's many companies who have 7 year old computers and have no plans to upgrade them any time soon. I've actually worked at one so I'm not lying.

    So cost is the only factor as to why PCs still out weighs Macs. From a personal computing aspect I see more people with Macs these days than PCs. Go to any university or college and you'll see mostly Macs. People prefer Macs. I get told constantly they most people like a Mac over a PC because they like the interface and how easy it is to do things. I've never personally used one but most people once they do never go back to PC 95% of the time.

    I'm also talking places that can afford Macs by the way. So yes, I know there's many places that the affordability of a Mac is impossible, like the iPhone.
    If this is true, then why is Microsoft still trying to match Apple's profit margins in the mobile space? I know it's been beaten to death, but they don't have the clout or captive audience they have in the enterprise market. The billion dollars of unsold Surfaces and 3% global Windows Phone market share should have clued them in. But no, we have $400+ Lumia 830's. What are they thinking?
    techiez and chezm like this.
    10-13-2014 07:57 AM
  11. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    If this is true, then why is Microsoft still trying to match Apple's profit margins in the mobile space? I know it's been beaten to death, but they don't have the clout or captive audience they have in the enterprise market. The billion dollars of unsold Surfaces and 3% global Windows Phone market share should have clued them in. But no, we have $400+ Lumia 830's. What are they thinking?
    There's more profits in the mobile market compared to the PC market. MS knows they need to be in the mobile market. Whether being in the hardware sector is a good idea is a question that many are asking.
    Bodeanicus likes this.
    10-13-2014 08:17 AM
  12. jlzimmerman's Avatar
    1) The market was mostly saturated, at least in the US. This is why WP is doing much better in emerging markets
    2) Carrier/Salespeople bias. Sales people usually talk people out of buying a WP usually using some incorrect information. I have never spoken to a sales rep who has not spoken poorly about WP. They act like you have a disease if you want something other than iOS or Android. Sales people themselves are after all people who are fanboys of whatever they have.
    3) Lack of apps and app quality
    4) It's from Microsoft and called WINDOWS phone. People associate this with Windows 8 and Microsoft which, you know, many people love to hate.
    5) Carrier Exclusivity.
    6) Media bias. In many cases it's just hard getting through the click-bait article title without face-palming.
    7) Microsoft's typical poor and sometimes horrendous marketing.
    8) Ecosystem Traction. What I mean here are constant changes to he platform structure which in the past has pissed off developers, and brand naming changes.
    Bodeanicus and Byrese like this.
    10-13-2014 09:07 AM
  13. jlzimmerman's Avatar
    I agree with everything you're saying except the last bit. Macs are not in large companies (MS strong holds) simply because of costs.
    Maybe for some, but not all. For us, it's because of flexibility. Our own CIO even said that mac in its current form does not have a place in Enterprise while Apple continues to lock down the OS. We administrators demand tools and adaptability make my 12,000+ employee company run smooth, and that requires the ability to make software, firmware and hardware tweaks. Cost is not an issue. Money is easily spent in piles if it means less O&M costs in the long run. In addition, Mac simply doesn't have the software depth Windows has. My site alone runs over 300 different programs, half of which are heavy industrial engineering programs which would choke a Mac.
    10-13-2014 09:27 AM
  14. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    Maybe for some, but not all. For us, it's because of flexibility. Our own CIO even said that mac in its current form does not have a place in Enterprise while Apple continues to lock down the OS. We administrators demand tools and adaptability make my 12,000+ employee company run smooth, and that requires the ability to make software, firmware and hardware tweaks. Cost is not an issue. Money is easily spent in piles if it means less O&M costs in the long run. In addition, Mac simply doesn't have the software depth Windows has. My site alone runs over 300 different programs, half of which are heavy industrial engineering programs which would choke a Mac.
    I would be impressed with any software that couldn't run on a high end Mac. I use pretty heavy duty graphics programs myself and my computer isn't what I'd call the latest and greatest. I'd say it's more about not having the programs available rather than the inability to run them. That's why I was saying that for simple tasks a Mac is way over priced. Lots of architectural firms use Macs as well as graphic illustrators.

    When I took my IT course, this is a few years back now, cost was always the driving factor for selection of computers. For most companies I've worked for (these are all large international engineering corporations I might add) cost of a PC was always a factor in what they got. You can easily bulk buy from Dell, which pretty much every company I've worked for in large corporations uses.

    Cost from an enterprise point of view is always an issue otherwise I'd have a new computer than I do along with everyone else that works here. :P Not to mention better stationary....
    Bodeanicus likes this.
    10-13-2014 09:38 AM
  15. Soulstream's Avatar
    3 things...

    1. late to the game, the market had already been established

    2. Ongoing app gap issue. Most major apps are there, but niche local apps or fad games either never show up on WP, or waaaay to late and under par with their equivalent in Android and iOS.

    3. Carrier sales clerks. It's insane how bad and biased the sales people are at Verizon, and even ATT. It's so bad, they should be fired. One of them actually got in a fight with my step-mom over the phones.
    I would also add ecosystem lock-in. Once you start buying apps it's much harder to switch operating systems.

    I also don't like the way Microsoft seems to present the OS philosophy: "a productivity tool that you can also have fun on" as opposed to "a fun gadget than you can also be productive on" (the apple philosophy). Consumers don't always buy logically.
    Bodeanicus and chezm like this.
    10-13-2014 09:51 AM
  16. jlzimmerman's Avatar
    I will agree that buying in bulk is a factor. Dell and HP have been big in that market for Enterprise. Another issue for Mac is just program availability. Many of our programs that are essential to our core business aren't available on Mac. Lack of programs hinders market growth......WP phone says "I hear you!" : /
    N_LaRUE likes this.
    10-13-2014 09:54 AM
  17. iamtim's Avatar
    AAPL had iPod and Google had search/gmail/etc ... MSFT had no consumer-oriented ecosystem.
    Just out of curiosity, why did you use AAPL and MSFT but not GOOG? :)
    10-13-2014 09:58 AM
  18. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    I will agree that buying in bulk is a factor. Dell and HP have been big in that market for Enterprise. Another issue for Mac is just program availability. Many of our programs that are essential to our core business aren't available on Mac. Lack of programs hinders market growth......WP phone says "I hear you!" : /
    That's true, but what Mac does have is the basics for the majority of people and then some. Something WP used to claim but the basics with smarthones is simply not good enough where as with a Mac it's a bit different. Let's not forget the image thing as well.
    10-13-2014 10:02 AM
  19. flyingsolid's Avatar
    I think this thread has already covered many of the points (promotion, flagship devices, etc etc), but I will go ahead and put in my two cents.

    The user interface for Windows Phone is great but I feel the core user experience is still lacking. Windows Phone has not had a proper growth towards a robust and mature OS, in my opinion. Carrier rollout delays and update compatibility, regardless of what Microsoft says, are additional factors which make people consider waiting to buy a new Windows Phone device.

    The other point of concern is the app gap. It is definitely there and it is hard to find 1 for 1 equivalents of secondary but useful apps you use on another platform. Microsoft should try the "Built for Windows 10" app label.

    I do believe with Windows 10 many of the concerns will be addressed, resulting in a overall ecosystem push at that time. But until then, the devices themselves will have to do the selling and the current devices have no clear tiers.
    chezm and Torontonian22 like this.
    10-13-2014 10:07 AM
  20. Bodeanicus's Avatar
    Maybe for some, but not all. For us, it's because of flexibility. Our own CIO even said that mac in its current form does not have a place in Enterprise while Apple continues to lock down the OS. We administrators demand tools and adaptability make my 12,000+ employee company run smooth, and that requires the ability to make software, firmware and hardware tweaks. Cost is not an issue. Money is easily spent in piles if it means less O&M costs in the long run. In addition, Mac simply doesn't have the software depth Windows has. My site alone runs over 300 different programs, half of which are heavy industrial engineering programs which would choke a Mac.
    C'mon, man. You know good and well Macs are the same internal hardware as any Wintel box. The only difference is your software isn't written for OS X. Your CIO is covering his *** on costs, and there's nothing wrong with that. But don't imply the hardware can't handle it.
    N_LaRUE likes this.
    10-13-2014 10:32 AM
  21. iamtim's Avatar
    C'mon, man. You know good and well Macs are the same internal hardware as any Wintel box... But don't imply the hardware can't handle it.
    In my experience, Apple makes the best mass-produced Windows machines on the market. I have never had a more stable Windows experience than I did on an i5 powered iMac.
    Laura Knotek, chezm and FinancialP like this.
    10-13-2014 11:07 AM
  22. Pierre Blackwell's Avatar
    With most making great points on this thread, I want to provide some retrospective. Not to undermine any of the already mentioned concerns, I want to ask a rhetorical question. How many of us on this thread, and many like this, have gotten someone interests in WP to the extent of either raising their intrigue and consideration of switching or has completely switched ecosystems?? Quite a few I bet, myself included. I'm sure if we really took a census and tallied the metrics, the statistics would indicate that the enthusiasm of WP increases when those are in contact with people well educated in the WP ecosystem. So what does this suggest? Why would anyone choose WP with the app gap, shallow infrastructure, sketchy carrier buy-in and any of the other points of concern? Why are we using it now? Perception is reality for the general public, but like most information, has some exaggeration to the reality.
    We as WP users can provide people with an accurate take on the ecosystem. What's still a work in progress but more importantly what are positives now. Most people don't even know what my 1520 is, but they're instantly intrigued to find out once they see the start screen display. It's fresh and unique and active. I then tell them about the live tiles and how you can adjust the size based on the capacity of information you want. Customization features nonexistent on iOS or Android. I talk about the social integration and how its unparalleled on the other platforms. I centralized, easy to read location for all your social networks. Cortana, another big eye opener and the camera. I end with the disclaimers. I mention an app gap, but again I explain what that means. Ultimately the decision is made based on pros, and cons. I find the source is providing the right information and letting the consumers choose...we know unfortunately that's not happening. This is a bigger issue than we realize and even after the one Windows unified vision is,fully integrated unless educated people on the ecosystem are providing input at the retail level things wont change much.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    10-13-2014 11:32 AM
  23. jlzimmerman's Avatar
    C'mon, man. You know good and well Macs are the same internal hardware as any Wintel box. The only difference is your software isn't written for OS X. Your CIO is covering his *** on costs, and there's nothing wrong with that. But don't imply the hardware can't handle it.
    If Apple made the required hardware....and that's my point regarding hardware. You guys are thinking common machines. You can try to paint it any way you want to, but there are certain analytic programs which are too hardware intensive for any given Mac you can currently buy. It's a fact. The hardware needed throughout our fleet is that which Apple-does-not-make. Existing Apple hardware would fail fabulously. This hardware also has cyber security requirements as dictated by the federal government.......which again also requires OS tweaks to work with our data diode appliances, which once again Apple restricts.
    10-13-2014 12:49 PM
  24. iamtim's Avatar
    The hardware needed throughout our fleet is that which Apple-does-not-make.
    Ok, spill. What sort of hardware is needed throughout your fleet?
    FinancialP likes this.
    10-13-2014 01:06 PM
  25. Torontonian22's Avatar
    Just to give more depth at my previous post where I already covered the ****ty MS marketing plan (as well as others).

    I was wondering if any of you have seen the promo video for the app called "Sway"...


    In this video, MS shows how much they don't care about WP. The future app is running on iPhone (first device we see), PC, iPad and Surface. At least, that's what the video shows. I'm pretty sure the app will run on other platforms. However, if you want to show that your app is cross platform, show ALL the platforms that are supported. If you are not sure, at least do not advertise your competitors.

    This means the app will be ready for iPhone before being ready for WP. Even if you don't care about Sway, it shows what MS thinks about us. We are not their priority and WP is not what they would like to push out. Once again, this is just an example of poor marketing. MS already developed the portable version of office for iPad first... now most of MS apps will de developped for IOS and Android first and maybe WP later.
    spazzmeister likes this.
    10-13-2014 01:21 PM
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