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11-21-2014 11:37 AM
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  1. spaulagain's Avatar
    Are the Adobe programs WinRT or Win32? Touch-friendly != WinRT. I can use the Win32 touch APIs to get smooth panning, zooming, drawing, etc.
    No, but they've already created Photoshop Express which is WinRT, iOS, and Android. It has basic functionality but can be expanded.

    WinRT is very flexible as far as languages are concerned. From my understanding the main issue with it currently is the clusterfvck APIs.

    Man, you really hate WinRT.
    10-15-2014 08:59 PM
  2. tgp's Avatar
    Tweaking the UI is not that big a deal for most apps. It's just like building a Responsive website which basically every legit sire/company has done. 90% of the code is the same, just some code to tweak the UI on top.
    Do we know how much tweaking will be involved? And who uses apps on desktop machines (full Windows)? So far the browser or legacy apps are much better than Store apps on the PC; the Store apps don't give a very good user experience. If apps aren't used much on PCs, is the perceived added market actually worth anything? Will making the apps available on both machines be worth it?

    These are questions that will be answered only after Windows 10 is on the market.
    10-15-2014 09:22 PM
  3. spaulagain's Avatar
    Do we know how much tweaking will be involved? And who uses apps on desktop machines (full Windows)? So far the browser or legacy apps are much better than Store apps on the PC; the Store apps don't give a very good user experience. If apps aren't used much on PCs, is the perceived added market actually worth anything? Will making the apps available on both machines be worth it?

    These are questions that will be answered only after Windows 10 is on the market.
    Agreed. But if what MS is saying is true, then there really is no other option. I mean they are designing the ultimate development platform for the "modern" world of apps and development. If that doesn't work, nothing will.

    I just don't see how it could get any better than Windows 10. We know the open environment like Win32 has serious draw backs in security and quality control. Sure devs have full access to build on the PC, but that means they can also really fvck your computer up. I understand legacy developers don't like the idea, my Dad is one of them. But lagged out computers and viruses is part of what gave Windows a bad name. Siloed environments with a full portfolio of APIs is a much better approach kong term. Especially from an end user experience perspective. Developers just need to get over it. Obviously they can because they have with iOS which is probably the most restricted and siloed app environment ever.
    10-15-2014 09:35 PM
  4. spaulagain's Avatar
    Do we know how much tweaking will be involved? And who uses apps on desktop machines (full Windows)? So far the browser or legacy apps are much better than Store apps on the PC; the Store apps don't give a very good user experience. If apps aren't used much on PCs, is the perceived added market actually worth anything? Will making the apps available on both machines be worth it?

    These are questions that will be answered only after Windows 10 is on the market.
    As far as tweaking is concerned, it's hard to say. But I've built multiple Responsive websites and web apps, its really not that big a deal. In fact it's kind of fun. I'd say it adds maybe 10% more work on top of just a standard desktop UI. And maybe less once you create a set of standard code like MS will be doing for apps.

    The thing is, tweaking the UI is inevitable. Screens sizes are almost infinite in sizes and resolutions now. If developers can't handle adapting the UI appropriately for these various screen sizes, then they shouldn't be building apps in the first place.
    10-15-2014 09:38 PM
  5. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Can we leave APIs and tweaking alone and get back to MS bashing and gloom and doom? It's so much more fun.
    10-15-2014 09:42 PM
  6. tgp's Avatar
    The thing is, tweaking the UI is inevitable. Screens sizes are almost infinite in sizes and resolutions now. If developers can handle adapting the UI appropriately for these various screen sizes, then they shouldn't be building apps in the first place.
    Yes, of course tweaking is inevitable. iOS and Android developers do it some for tablets. I still question though how much value the combined market of PCs and mobile will be. It seems that apps aren't used much on PCs, so will developers consider them as added potential customers? They will need to exceed the user experience of the web & legacy apps. That won't be easy.

    Sent from whatever device I happen to be using today using Tapatalk
    10-15-2014 09:44 PM
  7. spaulagain's Avatar
    Yes, of course tweaking is inevitable. iOS and Android developers do it some for tablets. I still question though how much value the combined market of PCs and mobile will be. It seems that apps aren't used much on PCs, so will developers consider them as added potential customers? They will need to exceed the user experience of the web & legacy apps. That won't be easy.

    Sent from whatever device I happen to be using today using Tapatalk
    If you can build a website with all the features, you can build an app. Websites are not an easy platform to develop on. In fact, with high functionality web apps, web technologies are a pain in the ***. They're document format being forced into an application tool.

    But you know why developers build applications on the web? Because of accessibility.

    The same would apply to Windows 10. If Windows 10 is available on desktops, tablets, phones, TVs, watches, cars, refrigerators, etc. that's massive accessibility which equals huge opportunity for devs.

    I'm not saying that the day Windows 10 launches, magically all these apps will appear, and be full featured. Obviously it will take sometime, especially as W10 builds a user base. But the potential/opportunity is the highest Microsoft has ever provided. And really any platform ever. Even iOS and Android are still very limited in opportunity. They're Tablets and Phones only. But Android is working on watch and car OS versions.

    My overall point is that if W10 doesn't provide the fix for Microsoft's dilemma, then nothing will.

    Also, if Cortana is available across all these devices. Think how devs can use that to their advantage. Again, the clear advantage apps have over websites is the access they have to the OS APIs and other apps. Cortana is a huge part of that API integration.

    And don't forget all those websites you guys are talking about are using technology that Microsoft has given a front row seat to in their WinRT environment. You can build a 100% HTML/CSS/JS WinRT app and at the same time have access to the OS APIs. That's awesome for web developers.
    aximtreo likes this.
    10-15-2014 09:52 PM
  8. tgp's Avatar
    But you know why developers build applications on the web? Because of accessibility.
    Yup. And building applications on the web gives access to every device that has a browser, including Macs, iDevices, Androids, and everything else. Windows devices are about 1/3 of all devices, so putting it on the web triples the market.
    FinancialP likes this.
    10-15-2014 10:00 PM
  9. spaulagain's Avatar
    Yup. And building applications on the web gives access to every device that has a browser, including Macs, iDevices, Androids, and everything else. Windows devices are about 1/3 of all devices, so putting it on the web triples the market.
    But it also limits functionality especially in regard to OS integration and cross app communication.

    I'm a web developer and a big proponent of web technology. I love it. But I also know its limitations.

    If the web is so great than we should all ditch our fancy PCs and MacBooks and just go buy Chromebooks.

    Applications are still the more powerful and effective way to provide a service and optimized UI to the end user. And they will be for a long time unless the web fundamentally changes how it works.

    Devs clearly still find use in developing apps, otherwise this app gap between WP and Android/iOS would be non-existent and irrelevant.

    Developing for the web will always have the best accessibility but it comes at great costs.
    Laura Knotek, aximtreo and tgp like this.
    10-15-2014 10:14 PM
  10. Mike Gibson's Avatar
    No, but they've already created Photoshop Express which is WinRT, iOS, and Android. It has basic functionality but can be expanded.
    As far as I can tell, the "touch" announcement was about adding touch to their existing Win32 programs.

    WinRT is very flexible as far as languages are concerned. From my understanding the main issue with it currently is the clusterfvck APIs.
    Win32 already supported every language ever invented.

    Man, you really hate WinRT.
    Yes. I hate that MSFT screwed up even simple/trivial things like file access in WinRT. It is the worst performing API I've ever seen. The people who designed it should be ashamed of the results (I bet it doesn't show up on many resumes).

    I'm an MSFT shareholder and a Windows-only ISV. MSFT's idiotic decision to kill Win32 will hurt me both personally (because their stock will crash within five years) and professionally (fewer Windows users to buy my programs). I have a WP8 program out there but its total sales for 1.5 years is equal to about two days of my Win32 program sales.

    All they had to do was create a scalable UI API on top of their existing portable OS, Windows, and backport it to Win7. I could have used it in all of my programs and it would have covered all of my current and future customers' systems.

    I had hoped with Win10 that MSFT would kill off WinRT refocus on Win32 ... but they're still blowing the "Universal app" horn. Plus they're apparently going fragment WinRT yet again (we'll have WinRT80, WinRT81, WinRT10, WinPRT80, WinPRT81, WinPRT10?). It takes forever to get a new version of WinPRT out in the field so I can't convert my WinPRT80 app to WinPRT81 yet and who knows when there will be a significant WinPRT10 userbase to work with. I may not be a good businessman but I'm not stupid enough to create and maintain three separate code trees to support a system with almost zero interested users. That time would be better spent learning iOS and Android, which I've heard aren't pretty for development (which proves that easy-to-develop-for doesn't mean that a platform will lure developers).
    a5cent and spaulagain like this.
    10-15-2014 10:21 PM
  11. spaulagain's Avatar
    As far as I can tell, the "touch" announcement was about adding touch to their existing Win32 programs.


    Win32 already supported every language ever invented.


    Yes. I hate that MSFT screwed up even simple/trivial things like file access in WinRT. It is the worst performing API I've ever seen. The people who designed it should be ashamed of the results (I bet it doesn't show up on many resumes).

    I'm an MSFT shareholder and a Windows-only ISV. MSFT's idiotic decision to kill Win32 will hurt me both personally (because their stock will crash within five years) and professionally (fewer Windows users to buy my programs). I have a WP8 program out there but its total sales for 1.5 years is equal to about two days of my Win32 program sales.

    All they had to do was create a scalable UI API on top of their existing portable OS, Windows, and backport it to Win7. I could have used it in all of my programs and it would have covered all of my current and future customers' systems.
    Why the hell would they kill WinRT? Yes it got off to a rough start because MS was still crossing threads when they launched it. But like I said earlier its a much better platform going forward.


    It gives every development platform equal play (HTML/CSS) and creates a much more secure app environment which is much better for the end user. It also allows for better communication between applications and doesn't take 8 hours to install an application.

    I understand you're frustration but you can't honestly expect them to have kept Win32 forever. Especially when it creates problems that had plagued Windows for years.

    And are the other platforms any better? Apple applications can't even be installed on a desktop if its an iOS app and visa Vera. And Apple just announced a new proprietary app develop language for iOS apps. And should I even bring up Android? What a fvcking cluster fvck. Try to build apps for that and see how many different version of the apps you have to build then.

    Sounds to me like you just can't handle the idea of technology changing and having to adapt. Well, I have news for you, that's the nature of technology. MS can't avoid it forever. Its why they fell behind, because they stuck with the old for so long to please people like you.

    Even as a web developer I'm having to learn new technologies and refactor websites all the time. That's just a fact of industry.
    10-15-2014 10:55 PM
  12. Mike Gibson's Avatar
    Why the hell would they kill WinRT? Yes it got off to a rough start because MS was still crossing threads when they launched it. But like I said earlier its a much better platform going forward.
    It wasn't just a rough start and the disaster has continued. It was designed to fail.

    I understand you're frustration but you can't honestly expect them to have kept Win32 forever. Especially when it creates problems that had plagued Windows for years.
    I expected MSFT to only do what was required to make their platform succeed in the device spaces and that was to add a simple, scalable UI API and framework. Not throw away all previous developer experience with a new system that started with zero users and zero backwards compatibility. It was a recipe for failure ... and guess what, it failed miserably.

    BTW, you do realize that your precious WinRT API and framework is just a layer on top of Win32, correct? All the goofy file access APIs eventually call into the Win32 file and directory APIs, the internet access APIs call into Win32's WinInet and WinSock, etc.

    And are the other platforms any better? Apple applications can't even be installed on a desktop if its an iOS app and visa Vera. And Apple just announced a new proprietary app develop language for iOS apps. And should I even bring up Android? What a fvcking cluster fvck. Try to build apps for that and see how many different version of the apps you have to build then.
    And yet, with all those warts and problems, those platforms are massively successful. Proof that an ultra-new, super-hip so-called "Modern" API and framework was not necessary to create a successful platform for devs or users.

    Sounds to me like you just can't handle the idea of technology changing and having to adapt. Well, I have news for you, that's the nature of technology.
    That's the familiar technological failure response, "we were too advanced for you numb nuts". I guess the Office division at MSFT also can't handle the idea of technology changing seeing as they have yet to convert their programs to WinRT ... and they're the equivalent to a multibillion dollar company with thousands of employees.

    MS can't avoid it forever. Its why they fell behind, because they stuck with the old for so long to please people like you.
    No, MSFT is behind because they couldn't create a consumer-oriented ecosystem like Apple (iPod, iPhone) and Google (search, Gmail, etc.). Windows and Win32 had nothing to do with it and, in fact, was used by their competitors when building their empires.

    Edit: MSFT made the same mistake 25 years ago with OS/2. It deviated significantly from the popular Win16 API and it failed. The correct way to make a transition was shown in the Win16 to Win32 transition, where you almost just needed to recompile to see significant benefits.
    Last edited by Mike Gibson; 10-16-2014 at 08:31 AM.
    FinancialP, dkediger and a5cent like this.
    10-16-2014 07:32 AM
  13. awilliams1701's Avatar
    Am I the only one that thinks that photoshop and video editing requires dual monitors of 24" or bigger with 1080p or better? In other words a desktop
    10-16-2014 11:07 AM
  14. spaulagain's Avatar
    Am I the only one that thinks that photoshop and video editing requires dual monitors of 24" or bigger with 1080p or better? In other words a desktop
    It doesn't require it, it just makes it easier. But when I'm on site for photography (I do motorsports), it's very nice to have a portable device to do that kind of post processing right there.

    For example, I went to Petit Le Mans a couple weeks ago. And each night in the hotel I loaded my images on to my Surface and began post processing work. But then when I get home I do any additional processing needed and organize the files.

    The point is, it's not a "this or that" scenario. You guys are looking at this as a black and white issue. It's not, and that's the whole point of Windows 10, to adapt the UI to how it's being used at that time.

    It is literally the EXACT same concept as responsive websites. One code set that simply adapts to the given device/use case. Sometimes I need to view a web app on my phone, other times on my laptop/desktop at home. Either way, the website tweaks the UI to fit those uses cases.

    I don't understand why people don't get this. Especially when there a million examples around them.
    10-16-2014 11:33 AM
  15. spaulagain's Avatar
    Do you guys know how a responsive website works? If not, look it up, maybe that will help you understand what they are doing. Responsive websites are all one code set. With CSS making small tweaks to the UI at various screen size break points via media queries. When it comes to development, its really pretty easy once you get the hang of it. And it makes for a fantastic user experience for the site visitors.

    The great thing about it is a mobile layout for a responsive website even applies to desktop. On a desktop you cam shrink the browser to as small as 300px if you want. If the website is responsive, the layout will adapt according. Makes for great flexibility even on desktop!
    10-16-2014 11:35 AM
  16. spaulagain's Avatar
    It wasn't just a rough start and the disaster has continued. It was designed to fail.


    I expected MSFT to only do what was required to make their platform succeed in the device spaces and that was to add a simple, scalable UI API and framework. Not throw away all previous developer experience with a new system that started with zero users and zero backwards compatibility. It was a recipe for failure ... and guess what, it failed miserably.




    And yet, with all those warts and problems, those platforms are massively successful. Proof that an ultra-new, super-hip so-called "Modern" API and framework was not necessary to create a successful platform for devs or users.





    No, MSFT is behind because they couldn't create a consumer-oriented ecosystem like Apple (iPod, iPhone) and Google (search, Gmail, etc.). Windows and Win32 had nothing to do with it and, in fact, was used by their competitors when building their empires.

    Edit: MSFT made the same mistake 25 years ago with OS/2. It deviated significantly from the popular Win16 API and it failed. The correct way to make a transition was shown in the Win16 to Win32 transition, where you almost just needed to recompile to see significant benefits.
    WinRT IS their consumer-oriented system and here you are bashing the hell out of it. Part of being a consumer-ecosystem is making the apps siloed, more secure, quicker to install, and accessible through one store like they are used to with iOS and Android.

    Yes I know WinRT basically sits on top Win32. So really they just need to expand and merge the APIs which they are doing with Windows 10. Amd make the applications better with Desktop which again is what they are doing.

    They might have botched the initial launch, but that ship has sailed. They are not reversing it, so get over it or go develop on iOS and Android and see how "seamless and problem free" that is.

    To be honest I'm glad they made it so you can't just recompile the app for WinRT. Because then we'd have a bunch of lazy developers who'd refuse to update their UI from 10 years ago.
    10-16-2014 11:46 AM
  17. spaulagain's Avatar
    BTW, they mentioned being able to buy/access Win32/x86 apps through the Windows Store with Windows 10.
    10-16-2014 11:55 AM
  18. dkediger's Avatar
    I would just love for my OEM vendor web portals to do away with Java 6 (Yes 6!) dependencies....
    10-16-2014 11:56 AM
  19. dkediger's Avatar
    I'm just do not see, from my perspective as a corporate IT director and not as a single/individual "content consumer", much value in the "App Store" purchasing and distribution model. In fact,
    ....Part of being a consumer-ecosystem is making the apps siloed, more secure, quicker to install, and accessible through one store like they are used to with iOS and Android.
    is a big huge problem for me. Because none of that is true in an enterprise environment. The stores don't support enterprise purchasing modes. Feature sets are not coordinated, which leads to device proliferation, which geometrically complicates both hard/soft support and security considerations.

    Simply put, the "app store/universal app" approach is a negative investment for the enterprise. Its a needless side show - again from my IT perspective - of real gains and investment that could/should be made in web development and desktop app development - the "content creation" use cases. See my previous comment about still needing Java 6 for OEM web portal interaction. It may work for an individual consumer market, but not in enterprise. Win10 is a year away from release, and 2 years from anything resembling significant use so that won't change the short term outlook.
    FinancialP likes this.
    10-16-2014 12:23 PM
  20. awilliams1701's Avatar
    Ugg I hate Java FAR worse than Flash. I used to hate both equally, but Adobe has really stepped up to the plate ever since Steve Jobs insulted them. Oracle hasn't. Java is if anything slower today than it was in the 90s. It also seems to be a big attack vector for malware.

    I would just love for my OEM vendor web portals to do away with Java 6 (Yes 6!) dependencies....
    10-16-2014 12:42 PM
  21. wplee's Avatar
    Windows Phone is over, literally. Microsoft have been working towards what is Windows 10 for a while and this is there last chance and direction at a mobile offering. Here's how I think it will be a success:

    Windows 10 user base will be combined in terms of device numbers. If you think about it, Phablets have merged the phone and tablet categories, while Surface are merging the tablet and laptop categories. So Microsoft will lump all user numbers together with desktop etc and call Windows 10 an epic success.

    How that relates to their hardware is another matter. It's obvious that everything with regards to a 2014 flagship has been scrapped and were now in a waiting period again, hence the odd 830 release and ported HTC One likely part funded by Microsoft. I love where Microsoft is heading and the "One Windows" vision is years ahead of Apple's combined single OS. But for now it's tough, I agree with OP that I'm not sure I can wait another 10 months for the Windows 10 Flagship.
    10-16-2014 01:01 PM
  22. Mike Gibson's Avatar
    I'm just do not see, from my perspective as a corporate IT director and not as a single/individual "content consumer", much value in the "App Store" purchasing and distribution model.
    Can you give me an idea of a "company store" model that would be acceptable in the enterprise? I ask because there has been some talk about MSFT widening their Store to include Desktop/Win32 programs. Many of my Win32 customers are government/military/etc. I use Fastspring.com as my reseller. They accept credit cards and POs, so that works (and they only take ~6% of sales, not 20-30% like MSFT's RT store).

    It just doesn't seem like a enterprises will allow employees to have their own MSFT account (especially the military!). Without an individual account you lose much of the advantage of the "Store" approach, where the apps and settings follow you around. Win32 already does that with roaming but that's a separate thing.
    10-16-2014 01:02 PM
  23. spaulagain's Avatar
    Can you give me an idea of a "company store" model that would be acceptable in the enterprise? I ask because there has been some talk about MSFT widening their Store to include Desktop/Win32 programs. Many of my Win32 customers are government/military/etc. I use Fastspring.com as my reseller. They accept credit cards and POs, so that works (and they only take ~6% of sales, not 20-30% like MSFT's RT store).

    It just doesn't seem like a enterprises will allow employees to have their own MSFT account (especially the military!). Without an individual account you lose much of the advantage of the "Store" approach, where the apps and settings follow you around. Win32 already does that with roaming but that's a separate thing.
    Ya, I'm curious too. Microsoft said they would allow enterprises to create a separate store of trusted apps, or company specific apps that when users are logged into the domain, could access and install independently.
    10-16-2014 01:35 PM
  24. negative1ne's Avatar
    The iPhone has no problem. Make a cheap phone, mid-tier phone and a flagship. NOT 50!

    Done.
    no thanks!

    i actually like freedom of choice, and not herded into
    an illusion of what i need.

    some people hate the new larger iphones (both of them).

    oh well, no choice for them except stay with their current phone or switch.

    later
    -1
    10-16-2014 01:43 PM
  25. dkediger's Avatar
    Can you give me an idea of a "company store" model that would be acceptable in the enterprise? I ask because there has been some talk about MSFT widening their Store to include Desktop/Win32 programs. Many of my Win32 customers are government/military/etc. I use Fastspring.com as my reseller. They accept credit cards and POs, so that works (and they only take ~6% of sales, not 20-30% like MSFT's RT store).

    It just doesn't seem like a enterprises will allow employees to have their own MSFT account (especially the military!). Without an individual account you lose much of the advantage of the "Store" approach, where the apps and settings follow you around. Win32 already does that with roaming but that's a separate thing.
    Its basically what you outlined, Mike. Consolidating/managing the purchasing expense and managing the installation environment. Having to use a CC for one time purchases on multiple machines just is a horrible experience. And everyone is account weary.

    Ideally, I would like to have a store that allows me an administrative account to make purchases either using a card number stored, or even better, using "credits" purchased via PO/etc through a reseller or direct from the store. From there, I would also like to see some type of say, a device token app that would let me associate and "see" my devices in my store account. Finally, assign an app to a device, ding my account, push (or pull from the device) the install, and Bob's your uncle.

    Really, a very stripped down MDM approach with a way to utilize volume purchases, but without the need for an onsite full-blown MDM. We're not really big enough (300 +/- end user devices total; 30 mobile devices) to realize value from a full MDM solution.
    10-16-2014 01:52 PM
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