Microsoft again caught in awkward transition - how does this keep happening?

spaulagain

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It wasn't just a rough start and the disaster has continued. It was designed to fail.


I expected MSFT to only do what was required to make their platform succeed in the device spaces and that was to add a simple, scalable UI API and framework. Not throw away all previous developer experience with a new system that started with zero users and zero backwards compatibility. It was a recipe for failure ... and guess what, it failed miserably.




And yet, with all those warts and problems, those platforms are massively successful. Proof that an ultra-new, super-hip so-called "Modern" API and framework was not necessary to create a successful platform for devs or users.





No, MSFT is behind because they couldn't create a consumer-oriented ecosystem like Apple (iPod, iPhone) and Google (search, Gmail, etc.). Windows and Win32 had nothing to do with it and, in fact, was used by their competitors when building their empires.

Edit: MSFT made the same mistake 25 years ago with OS/2. It deviated significantly from the popular Win16 API and it failed. The correct way to make a transition was shown in the Win16 to Win32 transition, where you almost just needed to recompile to see significant benefits.

WinRT IS their consumer-oriented system and here you are bashing the hell out of it. Part of being a consumer-ecosystem is making the apps siloed, more secure, quicker to install, and accessible through one store like they are used to with iOS and Android.

Yes I know WinRT basically sits on top Win32. So really they just need to expand and merge the APIs which they are doing with Windows 10. Amd make the applications better with Desktop which again is what they are doing.

They might have botched the initial launch, but that ship has sailed. They are not reversing it, so get over it or go develop on iOS and Android and see how "seamless and problem free" that is.

To be honest I'm glad they made it so you can't just recompile the app for WinRT. Because then we'd have a bunch of lazy developers who'd refuse to update their UI from 10 years ago.
 

dkediger

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I'm just do not see, from my perspective as a corporate IT director and not as a single/individual "content consumer", much value in the "App Store" purchasing and distribution model. In fact,
....Part of being a consumer-ecosystem is making the apps siloed, more secure, quicker to install, and accessible through one store like they are used to with iOS and Android.
is a big huge problem for me. Because none of that is true in an enterprise environment. The stores don't support enterprise purchasing modes. Feature sets are not coordinated, which leads to device proliferation, which geometrically complicates both hard/soft support and security considerations.

Simply put, the "app store/universal app" approach is a negative investment for the enterprise. Its a needless side show - again from my IT perspective - of real gains and investment that could/should be made in web development and desktop app development - the "content creation" use cases. See my previous comment about still needing Java 6 for OEM web portal interaction. It may work for an individual consumer market, but not in enterprise. Win10 is a year away from release, and 2 years from anything resembling significant use so that won't change the short term outlook.
 

awilliams1701

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Ugg I hate Java FAR worse than Flash. I used to hate both equally, but Adobe has really stepped up to the plate ever since Steve Jobs insulted them. Oracle hasn't. Java is if anything slower today than it was in the 90s. It also seems to be a big attack vector for malware.

I would just love for my OEM vendor web portals to do away with Java 6 (Yes 6!) dependencies....
 

wplee

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Windows Phone is over, literally. Microsoft have been working towards what is Windows 10 for a while and this is there last chance and direction at a mobile offering. Here's how I think it will be a success:

Windows 10 user base will be combined in terms of device numbers. If you think about it, Phablets have merged the phone and tablet categories, while Surface are merging the tablet and laptop categories. So Microsoft will lump all user numbers together with desktop etc and call Windows 10 an epic success.

How that relates to their hardware is another matter. It's obvious that everything with regards to a 2014 flagship has been scrapped and were now in a waiting period again, hence the odd 830 release and ported HTC One likely part funded by Microsoft. I love where Microsoft is heading and the "One Windows" vision is years ahead of Apple's combined single OS. But for now it's tough, I agree with OP that I'm not sure I can wait another 10 months for the Windows 10 Flagship.
 

Mike Gibson

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I'm just do not see, from my perspective as a corporate IT director and not as a single/individual "content consumer", much value in the "App Store" purchasing and distribution model.
Can you give me an idea of a "company store" model that would be acceptable in the enterprise? I ask because there has been some talk about MSFT widening their Store to include Desktop/Win32 programs. Many of my Win32 customers are government/military/etc. I use Fastspring.com as my reseller. They accept credit cards and POs, so that works (and they only take ~6% of sales, not 20-30% like MSFT's RT store).

It just doesn't seem like a enterprises will allow employees to have their own MSFT account (especially the military!). Without an individual account you lose much of the advantage of the "Store" approach, where the apps and settings follow you around. Win32 already does that with roaming but that's a separate thing.
 

spaulagain

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Can you give me an idea of a "company store" model that would be acceptable in the enterprise? I ask because there has been some talk about MSFT widening their Store to include Desktop/Win32 programs. Many of my Win32 customers are government/military/etc. I use Fastspring.com as my reseller. They accept credit cards and POs, so that works (and they only take ~6% of sales, not 20-30% like MSFT's RT store).

It just doesn't seem like a enterprises will allow employees to have their own MSFT account (especially the military!). Without an individual account you lose much of the advantage of the "Store" approach, where the apps and settings follow you around. Win32 already does that with roaming but that's a separate thing.

Ya, I'm curious too. Microsoft said they would allow enterprises to create a separate store of trusted apps, or company specific apps that when users are logged into the domain, could access and install independently.
 

negative1ne

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The iPhone has no problem. Make a cheap phone, mid-tier phone and a flagship. NOT 50!

Done.

no thanks!

i actually like freedom of choice, and not herded into
an illusion of what i need.

some people hate the new larger iphones (both of them).

oh well, no choice for them except stay with their current phone or switch.

later
-1
 

dkediger

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Can you give me an idea of a "company store" model that would be acceptable in the enterprise? I ask because there has been some talk about MSFT widening their Store to include Desktop/Win32 programs. Many of my Win32 customers are government/military/etc. I use Fastspring.com as my reseller. They accept credit cards and POs, so that works (and they only take ~6% of sales, not 20-30% like MSFT's RT store).

It just doesn't seem like a enterprises will allow employees to have their own MSFT account (especially the military!). Without an individual account you lose much of the advantage of the "Store" approach, where the apps and settings follow you around. Win32 already does that with roaming but that's a separate thing.

Its basically what you outlined, Mike. Consolidating/managing the purchasing expense and managing the installation environment. Having to use a CC for one time purchases on multiple machines just is a horrible experience. And everyone is account weary.

Ideally, I would like to have a store that allows me an administrative account to make purchases either using a card number stored, or even better, using "credits" purchased via PO/etc through a reseller or direct from the store. From there, I would also like to see some type of say, a device token app that would let me associate and "see" my devices in my store account. Finally, assign an app to a device, ding my account, push (or pull from the device) the install, and Bob's your uncle.

Really, a very stripped down MDM approach with a way to utilize volume purchases, but without the need for an onsite full-blown MDM. We're not really big enough (300 +/- end user devices total; 30 mobile devices) to realize value from a full MDM solution.
 

spaulagain

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Its basically what you outlined, Mike. Consolidating/managing the purchasing expense and managing the installation environment. Having to use a CC for one time purchases on multiple machines just is a horrible experience. And everyone is account weary.

Ideally, I would like to have a store that allows me an administrative account to make purchases either using a card number stored, or even better, using "credits" purchased via PO/etc through a reseller or direct from the store. From there, I would also like to see some type of say, a device token app that would let me associate and "see" my devices in my store account. Finally, assign an app to a device, ding my account, push (or pull from the device) the install, and Bob's your uncle.

Really, a very stripped down MDM approach with a way to utilize volume purchases.

From what they mentioned of the "company store" I think that's very much their goal.
 

dkediger

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Yeah, hopefully so. I think a big key will be getting away from an account the end user needs the credentials of, towards a device token that IT is in charge of and is transparent to the end user. We don't use any shared devices, so to account for that use there would need to be a device token/user ID pair I suppose.

If they can hit that, coupled with centralized purchasing, or maintaining store credits through PO/AP type purchasing methods - they would have something.
 

Mike Gibson

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Yeah, hopefully so. I think a big key will be getting away from an account the end user needs the credentials of, towards a device token that IT is in charge of and is transparent to the end user. We don't use any shared devices, so to account for that use there would need to be a device token/user ID pair I suppose.

If they can hit that, coupled with centralized purchasing, or maintaining store credits through PO/AP type purchasing methods - they would have something.
How should they handle program settings across devices for your users? WinRT (not WinPRT) has a "roaming" files capability (for small files) across devices. I assume that's maintained through some sort of cloud system. Is such a thing acceptable to enterprise customers knowing that potentially secret corporate data might flow across the internet? I ask because I'm trying to come up with some sort of roaming settings system for my Win32 programs so that users can transition from one device to another (relatively) seamlessly. My government customers have this already due to the built-in registry and file roaming in Windows Server (I think through AD; I don't know much about it other than it works). So, a user can login to one PC and then another and the settings xfer across.

To make that available to my non-corporate users would require storing settings and config files in their OneDrive directory (or other cross-device synchronization system) and hope they don't switch devices too quickly. I don't know the sync rate in OneDrive but it definitely isn't instantaneous.
 

dkediger

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Its a good question, and I could duck it by going strictly with my own situation in that we don't roam profiles or share devices so I don't care - but that wouldn't further the discussion. Our environment is almost exclusively offsite hosted web apps, so our portability is contained within the hosted web app itself for the most part. We have a retired legacy client/server Win32 system, but its user settings are contained in its database.

I don't have a lot of time as its the end of the day, so I'll post more later. Yeah, traditional Windows desktop files and settings can "roam" across desktops using roaming profiles where Windows and AD stores certain parts of the user's profile in a central network storage location.

We are going to be migrating to O365 during the coming year, so we will end up with Microsoft Accounts more or less. There is a single sign on protocol to link the Microsoft Account with the user's local ActiveDirectory account which will be good as I have users that sometimes don't seem to remember their own names, let alone any account logins.

I suppose Microsoft syncs Win8/WP8 through OneDrive and the user's Microsoft Account? Or do they utilize some double secret storage location - I don't know....
 

spaulagain

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How should they handle program settings across devices for your users? WinRT (not WinPRT) has a "roaming" files capability (for small files) across devices. I assume that's maintained through some sort of cloud system. Is such a thing acceptable to enterprise customers knowing that potentially secret corporate data might flow across the internet? I ask because I'm trying to come up with some sort of roaming settings system for my Win32 programs so that users can transition from one device to another (relatively) seamlessly. My government customers have this already due to the built-in registry and file roaming in Windows Server (I think through AD; I don't know much about it other than it works). So, a user can login to one PC and then another and the settings xfer across.

To make that available to my non-corporate users would require storing settings and config files in their OneDrive directory (or other cross-device synchronization system) and hope they don't switch devices too quickly. I don't know the sync rate in OneDrive but it definitely isn't instantaneous.

I'd imagine they'd handle it all through the domain. That's how most enterprises handle cross device user account synchronization. Don't see why that same technique wouldn't apply here. Microsoft already has all of this set up, they just need to extend the reach to apply to the Windows Store Apps and permissions.

The thing they need to do is make better layering of permissions. Right now you are basically an Admin, or not an Admin. As a result, any user that needs even the most basic control (like installing fonts) basically has to be given full admin access. At least that's how we have it work, and I believe it's a limitation of Windows, not our domain set up.
 

Gregory Newman

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Folks Windows phone 10 will get good new features to bring it up to par with Apple and android smart phones but the most daring thing it will get is the NEW "Universal Apps" for Microsoft Mobile and non mobile devices. it will look the same feel much the same except the new functions Windows 10 smart phones will get will make it a better Product. Universal Apps technology will help developers put their apps on more MS OS devices to help them make more MONEY
 

Mike Gibson

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Universal Apps technology will help developers put their apps on more MS OS devices to help them make more MONEY
Universal apps don't make sense in the Windows world. There's zero demand for Windows Phone apps and the Desktop is already covered by the far-more-powerful Win32 API.

Universal apps would make more sense in the iOS or Android world because those platforms have a large existing mobile userbase that needs to be brought up to the Desktop. I don't know why AAPL and GOOG haven't exploited this huge opportunity to expand their market reach (especially AAPL, since they make a ton of profit on each Mac sale).

What would make sense, imho, is for MSFT to expand Visual Studio to support creating iOS and Android apps, like Xamarin but better and cheaper. That way ISVs could target the large iOS and Android userbases and with (hopefully) minimal effort also produce Windows Phone apps.
 

jfa1

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While I don't consider this a disaster, it is pretty sad that they can't release a phone across all carriers, or at least all of the major ones. If the Icon wasn't a Verizon exclusive, there would be less problems right now. The Lumia 830 should have been released everywhere by now, across all US carriers.

As far as releasing a phone across that requires the cooperation of all major carriers. Verizon seems to continue to have a less than enthusiastic embrace on Windows Phone, Sprint's not embracing WP either and TMO doesn't seem any more enthusiastic than Verizon. So there's problems with both ends of the equation for a 4 carrier at the same time rollout of WP devices. I too would like to see it maybe Microsoft needs to be more assertive like Apple or Samsung. They certainly have market clout as to #2 size company in the world (as a whole company). Maybe they still feel they have to tread lightly as a carryover from the anti trust windows OS kerfuffle from a decade or so ago. .
 

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