11-21-2014 11:37 AM
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  1. Ruined's Avatar
    With rumors that q4 flagship was cancelled, discontinuation of Icon, and lack of consistency across carriers, Microsoft again appears caught in an awkward transition period in the 6+ month leadup to Windows 10.

    Given the new CEOs focus on cloud and mobile, how did this occur yet again? This is similar to the void between WP7.5 and WP8. I don't understand how a company of Microsofts size can't avoid repeated PR disasters like this.... Even if MS markets the product they have very little to sell.

    While it is partially the carriers fault, Microsofts inability to manage a product portfolio with US carriers demonstrates their role in this awkward period.
    dezzilak, steve_w_7 and nadoj like this.
    10-13-2014 02:30 PM
  2. Nicholas Maguire's Avatar
    While I don't consider this a disaster, it is pretty sad that they can't release a phone across all carriers, or at least all of the major ones. If the Icon wasn't a Verizon exclusive, there would be less problems right now. The Lumia 830 should have been released everywhere by now, across all US carriers.
    10-13-2014 02:34 PM
  3. Ruined's Avatar
    I mean, they can afford to buy Minecraft for $2.5billion but they can't work out a consistent financial/promotional deal with the 4 major US carriers to ensure WP is given priority treatment with smooth product transitions? Makes no sense.
    jasqid, dezzilak, chezm and 6 others like this.
    10-13-2014 02:51 PM
  4. mj0's Avatar
    The problem here isn't Microsoft, it's that weird carrier-operator-phone maker relationship in the US. Locked networks like the ones Verizon and Sprint operate don't exist in Europe so you can basically use every phone on every network. And while exclusive deals do sometimes exist they're rare and short lived.

    Take the Lumia Icon for example, available everywhere outside the US as Lumia 930 on every network out there. It came a bit later than the Icon but it's widely available now.
    10-13-2014 03:03 PM
  5. OldMillXxX's Avatar
    The iPhone has no problem. Make a cheap phone, mid-tier phone and a flagship. NOT 50!

    Done.
    chezm, dezzilak, nadoj and 3 others like this.
    10-13-2014 04:40 PM
  6. Allen Rhodes's Avatar
    Old, THANK YOU. I have said that in so many posts. They want to be apple but are taking the android path. I don't care if they make an "affordable" sub $100 dollar phone. I want a phone that "wows" for once.
    Davey123, LumiaWorld and steve_w_7 like this.
    10-14-2014 10:24 PM
  7. theefman's Avatar
    Pro tip, Windows 10 wont change anything.
    dezzilak and negative1ne like this.
    10-14-2014 11:16 PM
  8. spaulagain's Avatar
    Pro tip, Windows 10 wont change anything.
    Why would you say that? If anything I think part of the reason they are holding off on flagships is to prepare flagship devices that ship with Windows 10. While all WP8 devices should upgrade to W10, I'm guessing there may be significant enough changes in design that the hardware will actually be a little different. Like maybe all phones will on screen buttons that are accessed by swiping up like the charms bar on tablets. Or maybe they'll add different buttons.
    10-14-2014 11:40 PM
  9. awilliams1701's Avatar
    They have a double problem. First the acquisition of Nokia causes issues as everything settles. Second the upcoming release of Windows 10 also causes issues as they may not want to develop an "obsolete" windows 8.1 phone.
    10-15-2014 10:53 AM
  10. jmshub's Avatar
    This is an area where Microsoft has an issue with their phones. They get their enthusiasts excited about the new OS, and months go by until a product is in stores. WP8 was shown to the world at the end of June, and didn't see store shelves until October or November of 2012.

    This current period is even more unusual, as we wait for Windows 10 on the phone, which probably won't see general availability until fall of 2015, with even mockups and beta test period sometime in the late spring of 2015. In the meantime, they haven't released a GSM flagship phone in the US in calendar year 2014. The 1520 came out late last year, if I'm not mistaken, and the 830 and the M8 are the only phones pending on the horizon, while Verizon has already shut down the Icon, it appears.

    Maybe this is the transition period as Nokia starts to operate entirely under Microsoft, or as I speculated elsewhere, maybe this radio silence is the new normal from Microsoft, as they can develop and produce a phone with nearly no leaks, as they even control the manufacturing with Nokia's factories...this is obviously not extremely likely unless we actually get new products announced or shipped soon.
    dezzilak likes this.
    10-15-2014 10:58 AM
  11. colinkiama's Avatar
    lol the 1525 was a lie buy the bloggers wife. It was never real in the first place!!!
    10-15-2014 12:06 PM
  12. theefman's Avatar
    Why would you say that?.
    Simply because I don't think Windows 10 itself will make much difference to how well WP sells as the OP hopes. The OS is one factor, then comes apps, biased reps, stupid carrier exclusives, USP of the phone, non-existent marketing, poor supporting bing/Xbox services, Microsoft's internal sabotage - there are lots of things that need to change to revive WP's fortunes, the OS is just one of them.
    chezm, a5cent and negative1ne like this.
    10-15-2014 02:47 PM
  13. spaulagain's Avatar
    Simply because I don't think Windows 10 itself will make much difference to how well WP sells as the OP hopes. The OS is one factor, then comes apps, biased reps, stupid carrier exclusives, USP of the phone, non-existent marketing, poor supporting bing/Xbox services, Microsoft's internal sabotage - there are lots of things that need to change to revive WP's fortunes, the OS is just one of them.

    Well, WP won't exist with Windows 10. Windows 10 will be just Windows 10. Any apps developed for the Windows 10 store will be on WP. If Windows 10 can surpass Windows 8 in success, I guarantee there will be better apps.

    And when Windows 10 is released, how will we measure the "success" of Windows Phone? Just measuring how many "phones" W10 is installed on?

    I agree there are other factors like carriers, etc. But I think with Windows 10, Microsoft will have a lot more weight to throw around and convince carriers to step up their game. Especially now that Microsoft owns the Nokia hardware division. We're already seeing evidence of that with the 830 having Qi wireless charging kn ATT.
    10-15-2014 02:53 PM
  14. Jas00555's Avatar
    Do people not understand how business works? Microsoft can't just snap their fingers and force the carriers to do as they will. As big as they are in the world, they're only 4% of the smartphone market, which is most of what carriers care about. Nokia abandoned the US market for years and had terrible carrier relations. In the few months that Microsoft has acquired Nokia's D&S, things have improved a lot. Sprint is getting their first Lumia, AT&T and T-Mobile has both got the Lumia 635, as opposed to the carrier exclusive (but basically identical) 520 and 521. Even today, after a long run of AT&T not allowing Qi, Microsoft has negotiated with AT&T to allow it to have Qi, despite AT&T's partnership with PMA.

    Some people get cranky when you tell them to wait, but these things take time, especially when they're starting from behind.

    I don't even understand what Minecraft has to do with this. Mojang is a small company consisting of 40 people while the OP is complaining about a multibillion dollar oligopoly. That comparison is just weird. You complain about McLaren, but you would've complained twice as hard if they produced some gimmick, which is all the McLaren would've been if they pushed it out now. It's important to not just look front he outside and blindly go "why can't they do XYZ?!!?" without considering all of the factors that go into it.
    mpl175 and Dave47 like this.
    10-15-2014 04:36 PM
  15. FinancialP's Avatar
    Well, WP won't exist with Windows 10. Windows 10 will be just Windows 10. Any apps developed for the Windows 10 store will be on WP. If Windows 10 can surpass Windows 8 in success, I guarantee there will be better apps.

    And when Windows 10 is released, how will we measure the "success" of Windows Phone? Just measuring how many "phones" W10 is installed on?

    .
    So what you're saying is, developers who already don't develop for Windows 8 and don't develop for Windows Phone, will develop for Windows 10?

    Why about the developers that did develop for Windows 8 but never updated their apps, just like on Windows Phone?
    10-15-2014 06:01 PM
  16. lordsnow's Avatar
    I'm kinda tired of being a Windows Phone user. Microsoft doesn't know how to work with mobile users, maybe they should kept only doing Windows on PCs and laptops.
    I'm really happy with Windows on my PC but my Windows Phone is bothering me more day after day. Microsoft support is ****, Microsoft marketing is ****, Microsoft development is ****.
    10-15-2014 06:09 PM
  17. spaulagain's Avatar
    So what you're saying is, developers who already don't develop for Windows 8 and don't develop for Windows Phone, will develop for Windows 10?

    Why about the developers that did develop for Windows 8 but never updated their apps, just like on Windows Phone?

    It's hard to say at this point. But if...

    1. Windows 10 gets better adoption than Windows 8 (which it should, hopefully a lot better, and replace W7 long term)
    2. You can develop one app and release it to Desktops, Laptops, Tablets, Phones, Watches, and Xboxes, using all the same language and APIs.

    Then you'd be a damn fool not to develop apps for Windows.

    And companies like Adobe are already shifting their apps to be touch friendly, as they continue, what's stopping them from recompiling for ARM?


    If we go by your statement, Microsoft shouldn't even bother with Windows 10. They should just kill Windows completely. Because by what you're saying, no one will ever do anything with Windows anymore. It will die with the desktop.

    That's absurd.

    Windows 10 will be the most advanced OS out there.
    10-15-2014 06:14 PM
  18. go1020's Avatar
    It's hard to say at this point. But if...

    1. Windows 10 gets better adoption than Windows 8 (which it should, hopefully a lot better, and replace W7 long term)
    2. You can develop one app and release it to Desktops, Laptops, Tablets, Phones, Watches, and Xboxes, using all the same language and APIs.

    Then you'd be a damn fool not to develop apps for Windows.

    And companies like Adobe are already shifting their apps to be touch friendly, as they continue, what's stopping them from recompiling for ARM?


    If we go by your statement, Microsoft shouldn't even bother with Windows 10. They should just kill Windows completely. Because by what you're saying, no one will ever do anything with Windows anymore. It will die with the desktop.

    That's absurd.

    Windows 10 will be the most advanced OS out there.
    Help me understand something. Windows desktop is popular across the world but not all developers make apps for desktop. I'm differentiating between apps and programs here. If a developer already has a program, chances are they don't need an app for tablets and phones. Why would they make an app with Windows 10 when there is little incentive due to little market share? You can take instagram as an example for tablets.
    10-15-2014 06:23 PM
  19. FinancialP's Avatar
    It's hard to say at this point. But if...

    1. Windows 10 gets better adoption than Windows 8 (which it should, hopefully a lot better, and replace W7 long term)
    2. You can develop one app and release it to Desktops, Laptops, Tablets, Phones, Watches, and Xboxes, using all the same language and APIs.

    Then you'd be a damn fool not to develop apps for Windows.

    And companies like Adobe are already shifting their apps to be touch friendly, as they continue, what's stopping them from recompiling for ARM?


    If we go by your statement, Microsoft shouldn't even bother with Windows 10. They should just kill Windows completely. Because by what you're saying, no one will ever do anything with Windows anymore. It will die with the desktop.

    That's absurd.

    Windows 10 will be the most advanced OS out there.
    That's not what I meant by my statement at. Thanks for taking it way out of context.

    All of the stuff you said is fine in a perfect world where people actually use apps on their desktop. In the world we currently live in, people don't use apps on the desktop.

    Apps such as Netflix, Hulu, video apps etc will do just fine. Beyond that and you're in a mess that's currently the Windows Store right now.

    The most used desktop application is the browser. It's the most used by a long shot.
    10-15-2014 06:26 PM
  20. spaulagain's Avatar
    That's not what I meant by my statement at. Thanks for taking it way out of context.

    All of the stuff you said is fine in a perfect world where people actually use apps on their desktop. In the world we currently live in, people don't use apps on the desktop.

    Apps such as Netflix, Hulu, video apps etc will do just fine. Beyond that and you're in a mess that's currently the Windows Store right now.

    The most used desktop application is the browser. It's the most used by a long shot.

    It all depends on the apps. The reason most people use the browser to access "web apps" on desktop is because they are full featured and can be windowed/tabbed easily. Where as apps generally lack both.

    With Windows 10, you can Window those apps. The only question is the features which is the devs own problem.

    I'd much prefer to use dedicated apps that integrate with other apps and the OS than a browser IF I know that half way through using the app, I won't have to open a browser anyways to access specific functionality.

    People build desktop apps for OSX even though it has less than 5% market share. So why can't the same be said for the opposite. Especially if you can write once and execute everywhere.

    Microsoft is basically building the DREAM environment for almost all app developers. iOS meanwhile is still a pain in the *** to develop for. But magically all developers will ignore Windows 10 and stick with iOS cuz iPadz!!!

    I'm tired of this doom and gloom attitude towards anything Microsoft. They could solve world hunger and people would still find ways to ***** about it or claim they didn't do it.
    10-15-2014 06:39 PM
  21. FinancialP's Avatar
    It all depends on the apps. The reason most people use the browser to access "web apps" on desktop is because they are full featured and can be windowed/tabbed easily. Where as apps generally lack both.

    With Windows 10, you can Window those apps. The only question is the features which is the devs own problem.

    I'd much prefer to use dedicated apps that integrate with other apps and the OS than a browser IF I know that half way through using the app, I won't have to open a browser anyways to access specific functionality.

    People build desktop apps for OSX even though it has less than 5% market share. So why can't the same be said for the opposite. Especially if you can write once and execute everywhere.

    Microsoft is basically building the DREAM environment for almost all app developers. iOS meanwhile is still a pain in the *** to develop for. But magically all developers will ignore Windows 10 and stick with iOS cuz iPadz!!!

    I'm tired of this doom and gloom attitude towards anything Microsoft. They could solve world hunger and people would still find ways to ***** about it or claim they didn't do it.
    Don't know why you're so angry, but I can't help you with that.

    I didn't say anything about doom and gloom, I just posted a casual statement.

    OSX app development is laughable just as the Windows Store. People rarely use them, if ever.

    I don't know why your brought iOS into this either. What does "iPadz" mean?
    10-15-2014 06:47 PM
  22. dezzilak's Avatar
    The problem here isn't Microsoft, it's that weird carrier-operator-phone maker relationship in the US. Locked networks like the ones Verizon and Sprint operate don't exist in Europe so you can basically use every phone on every network. And while exclusive deals do sometimes exist they're rare and short lived.

    Take the Lumia Icon for example, available everywhere outside the US as Lumia 930 on every network out there. It came a bit later than the Icon but it's widely available now.
    Make it pentaband, like the 1520.3? And sell it outright from your website. Damn, that reminds me of some also big company...
    10-15-2014 06:56 PM
  23. Mike Gibson's Avatar
    And companies like Adobe are already shifting their apps to be touch friendly, as they continue, what's stopping them from recompiling for ARM?
    Are the Adobe programs WinRT or Win32? Touch-friendly != WinRT. I can use the Win32 touch APIs to get smooth panning, zooming, drawing, etc.
    10-15-2014 07:03 PM
  24. Mike Gibson's Avatar
    Well, WP won't exist with Windows 10. Windows 10 will be just Windows 10. Any apps developed for the Windows 10 store will be on WP. If Windows 10 can surpass Windows 8 in success, I guarantee there will be better apps.
    That's not true. Devs will have to "tailor" their apps to the various screen sizes which leads to different versions for different devices (see the techrepublic.com interview). Plus, using phone-specific APIs will throw exceptions (which is stupid from an OS API viewpoint).

    MSFT threw away all of their decades of Win32 effort, and decades of ISV Win32 effort, when they created WinRT. As expected, it failed miserably and will continue to fail ... just like any totally new mobile OS would do these days. It will turn out to be the most expensive blunder in business history (including the Nokia purchase the total must be around $10B already and that's not counting the unknown billions of $$$ of lost Win32 users in the future).
    10-15-2014 07:27 PM
  25. spaulagain's Avatar
    That's not true. Devs will have to "tailor" their apps to the various screen sizes which leads to different versions for different devices (see the techrepublic.com interview). Plus, using phone-specific APIs will throw exceptions (which is stupid from an OS API viewpoint).

    MSFT threw away all of their decades of Win32 effort, and decades of ISV Win32 effort, when they created WinRT. As expected, it failed miserably and will continue to fail ... just like any totally new mobile OS would do these days. It will turn out to be the most expensive blunder in business history (including the Nokia purchase the total must be around $10B already and that's not counting the unknown billions of $$$ of lost Win32 users in the future).
    Tweaking the UI is not that big a deal for most apps. It's just like building a Responsive website which basically every legit sire/company has done. 90% of the code is the same, just some code to tweak the UI on top.

    Also, they've also said that they will provide tools sets that will automatically scale the UI if the app uses standard controls, etc.

    It's clear you just have a vendetta.
    10-15-2014 08:55 PM
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