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10-27-2014 01:26 PM
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  1. MikeX74's Avatar
    I see it as another chicken-and egg situation(like apps, developers and market share) for Microsoft and WP. They don't have the clout that Apple and Samsung do(because carriers know their phones will sell in great numbers), but in order to get that clout, WP devices have to sell in great numbers. Without the clout that other OEM's have, Microsoft HAS to accept whatever terms carriers put forth in order to get carriers to sell them. If the numbers(sales and revenue) become meaningful to carriers, MS would have more clout, but right now, the carriers have all of the leverage. Having said that, Microsoft isn't entirely to blame for exclusives, but the are to blame for, IMO, not giving enough people a compelling reason to either switch from another platform, or to buy a WP device over something else. Carriers need a reason a compelling reason to promote WP devices as much, or more than they promote other devices, and so far, their isn't one.
    realwarder likes this.
    10-17-2014 09:07 AM
  2. Immortal Lobster's Avatar
    I have sent the following email to Verizon, once I find a reliable contract email for MS and HTC, I will send copies. I understand this is probably all for not, but I feel somebody needs to know beyond the sales staff.:


    To whom it may concern



    Id like to bring to the attention of Verizon of its pushy, and in-your-face sale staff at a local store. Full disclosure, Im an AT&T customer with no intention of switching to Verizon, and especially after experiencing what I went through yesterday. I entered the corporate store in Rockwall Texas off I30, in order to investigate the HTC M8 for Windows, a phone that HTC corporate negotiated an exclusivity deal with. AT&T is slated to get the phone in November, probably late, but I have some reservations to switching to it from a Lumia, so a co-worker of mine suggested I go by a Verizon store and play with it. Upon entering the store, I immediately felt put on the defensive, it was like walking onto a used car lot, all the sales staff eyes were upon me. I was greeted with a friendly hello, and can we help?, to which I responded, no just looking today, but you can direct me to the M8 for windows., The salesperson immediately took me over to the Android M8. I exclaimed thats not why I came in, I wanted to play with a Windows version, and she informed me that [She] hates windows, and would much rather have an Android, I exclaimed, thats nice, but I like Windows. She exclaimed; You actually like windows?. She eventually took me to the device after some continued discussion, which wasnt far away. My intent was to play with the device, get a feel for it, instead the sales person hovered, continued asking questions of me as to how I could possibly like windows phone.



    This concerns me personally, and I feel it should concern Verizon corporate. Someone in the supply chain negotiated a deal with MS and HTC to have exclusive rights to that phone, and probably guaranteed a certain number of sales. If people arent legitimately buying the phone because its not what they want, than so-be-it, but when the sale staff is doing everything in its power to dissuade people from purchasing the WP version over the Android version, for no reason than their own personal preferences, than thats a problem. I recently heard news that Verizon has chosen to retire the Nokia Lumia Icon due to poor sales. My carrier, and others in the US cannot carry the 930 because of the Icon exclusivity deal; and that would be fine if Verizon were making sales. Instead the attitude expressed my local store is essentially taking a wrecking ball to the choices of all Americans on their phone choices. I cant get a 930 on AT&T to replace my 920, because of the Icons exclusivity deal. Again, Id be ok with this attitude if Verizon sales people made an effort.



    The failure on Verizons part here is; I went in a store, asked to see a particular model of phone, with a particular OS, with the intention of spending time with it. I was not closed to the idea of possibly switching carriers, although it would have been unlikely due to coverage provided (or not provided) at work. Instead, I walked in, was hassled right off the bat, was told what I wanted, and it wasnt what I said I wanted, and upon being showed the device, I tried politely to say I just want to play with it, thanks for showing me the device, the sales person continued to hover in close proximity, making it difficult for me to explore the nuances I wanted to explore. I feel I was particularly calm, polite, and reasonable all things considered. I dont remember the particular individuals name, I dont necessarily think its a fault of hers, rather a failure on Verizons training and lack of oversight on its sales staff.



    Im sure that like all carriers, this email will probably fall upon deaf ears, so I will be sending copies to the other entities concerned here as well. Microsoft and HTC. I feel they have a right to know why their sales are slumping on Verizon, and that they should understand its not because of their devices.



    Sincerely
    Last edited by Immortal Lobster; 10-17-2014 at 09:48 AM.
    wpfan2be, satrus08 and primortal like this.
    10-17-2014 09:15 AM
  3. FinancialP's Avatar
    No...I used the same argument you made against you. You claimed that Carriers don't care what OS they sell as long as they sell? So why then are people being discouraged from buying windows phone then?

    I'd love to know what "STUDIES" you are reading and following that studies.

    While users may not know what particular version of ANDROID is on their phone, most know it is Android.

    There are many reasons why windows phone is not selling well. I never said it was 100 percent the carrier's fault. However, I said I don't BLAME Microsoft for choosing one carrier for exclusives because it is obvious the other 3 don't care much enough to help push the sales of these devices.

    Your response
    "So WPC a fan site of windows phones is a great place to take people words about what agents are saying? Hardly. "

    Is ludicrous.

    That's like someone saying "Imore isn't a great place to take people's words about the iPhone 6 opening weekend experiences."
    Because it is an iPhone fansite.

    That literally made no sense what you said. Then you said people can go elsewhere to buy the phone.....YEAH low end phones, not the phones they actually may want and see on tv such as a M8, Icon, 1520 or 1020. It doesn't change the fact that most people will go to a carrier store especially if they need to do an upgrade

    (And authorized dealers are even worse because they never have working models and their displays look like crap. Go to any Radio Shack or Wal-mart lmao...and this is not just Windows phone, I've seen them have ANDROID phones from 2 years ago out on display.)

    But you've made your "point". You don't agree it is the carrier's fault, I think it is best we move on:)
    I don't think you're comprehending. You never take biased opinions as fact.

    You wouldn't go to macrumors or imore and say iphone is great. Why? Those sites contain fans who will agree with you regardless of what you say as long as it's good.

    Now if you say iPhone sucks on those sites, you'd be ripped to pieces.

    Same here, say windows phone isn't that good, and people will defend these devices whole heartedly.

    Why?
    We are on a fan site. Of course people will defend these devices, and say simple stuff such as "it's the carriers fault", "agents trash windows phone". Because that's all they see.

    Every intelligent individual can see obvious bias.

    Verizon isn't to blame for having a exclusive device that may not sell. That's the whole reason for it to be exclusive, just to sell the few they are able to hopefully sell.
    10-17-2014 09:36 AM
  4. FinancialP's Avatar
    But sure lets blame the carriers all around the world too.

    Or maybe that's someone's else's fault as well.
    Bodeanicus likes this.
    10-17-2014 09:38 AM
  5. Toan Le's Avatar
    Saying things like
    "Nobody uses windows phone"

    "It has no apps"

    "Android OR IOS is better."

    Is a big reason these devices don't sell. While the carrier themselves necessarily don't care, the front end agents are the people who can persuade customers and there are many stories here from people on WPC, myself included, who have dealt with agents who actively will bash the phone even if it is a phone a customer has asked for.

    That's bad business/customer service.
    Hmm... I really want to say something like this to that salesman (if I was a bit older :p): "STFU, dude. I know what I'm going to buy and it isn't your business. I'm a man with phone knowledge, not someone for you to tell what to buy. Just get me the phone and that's enough", then throw a bunch of cash at his face...

    How lucky I am, that in my place, salesmen, as far as I know, never bad-mouth about a Windows Phone. I think I will get mad when a salesman bash Windows Phone like that in front of me... Then maybe I will just get out of that store and never come back. :/
    10-17-2014 10:15 AM
  6. someone2639's Avatar
    Dress up as a gentleman and explain how you like power over design :P
    10-17-2014 11:05 AM
  7. jlzimmerman's Avatar
    There's in all honesty no one to blame.

    Carriers carry the devices that sell. It's that simple.
    How do you expect to sell WP's when your own sales people tells customers to stay away, even if those customers are interested in WP?????????
    Tom Snyder likes this.
    10-17-2014 11:27 AM
  8. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Well if nobody sees fit to ask the obvious question, I will. Does Microsoft negotiate the deals with the carriers or is it done directly with the OEMs? No guesses, I'd like to hear facts from someone who knows for sure. For all we know, we're bashing the wrong company. Personally, I would imagine Nokia, Samsung and HTC make their own arrangements with the carriers. It's their name, their device being pushed out there.
    10-17-2014 11:49 AM
  9. Llordy's Avatar
    But sure lets blame the carriers all around the world too.

    Or maybe that's someone's else's fault as well.
    Its is amazing to just read the discussions of the members, here. How can one ask for the opinion of someone and then reply that their opinion is not true. Its an opinion. It can be about fact or fiction, but an opinion cannot be wrong unless that person is untruthful about their feelings.

    This thread was started because a member felt that, "US carriers played a significant role in Windows Phone's under performance. The facts made out in the opinion may be up for debate, but the opinion of itself is not invalid simply because another person feels that their opinion holds more truths to the circumstances.

    What get's me mad is the fact, when people try to make themselves or their products look better, they feel the need to trample on everyone else. Why must I listen to someone ramble on about how awesome they are, only for them to insult and disrespect me and my opinions. Even though what others may say may be fact, it is not a great experience nontheless. It is true that Windows Phone lacks apps and games but that is not going to stop me from using it, and I will not be bullied by one's arrogance that I am "foolish, or ignorant" for my preference.

    Windows Phone is well all over the world, save for the US. So I think that there is some merit to the statement that carriers are too blame. The US is one of the most competitive markets in the world, so most sales tactics involve a more, "destroy the enemy" approach in my opinion. Android and iOS became popular for a reason: Some few "fan boys" would have started using it and then most likely they would tell their friends about it. That's how I got into Android back when I was moving from Windows Mobile. In the case of consumers going to carrier stores, they have not decided what they wanted yet so their decision rests on the rest they have in the opinion of the sales clerk. that's where the problem lies, they are being led by someone who doesn't care about want that person wants or needs, they are concerned with selling what is most profitable. I know older people who are sold Android phones even though they find them to be very complicated and laggy. But when I hand them a Windows Phone and show them how fluid and simple it is to use they love it instantly.

    I personally believe that is things were done differently (perhaps a few greased hands) Windows phone would been doing much better than it is today. But Because of the harsh adversarial tactics of sales in the US (imo), sales for a competing product pounce on its weakness. Does #Bendgate ring a bell? Think about all the attacks Apple has received over the years. When King-of-the-Hill everyone is trying to justify themselves by pointing out the other's weaknesses. In the case of Windows Phone, those weaknesses have become an age old mantra of sorts.

    My point is, everyone has their bias. It is what gives us life. When we try to be truly unbiased, that is when things can get boring. Because I am not given reasons for something or against it. The best way to gauge a product is to hear from the "fan boys" and the "haters". That way you can see the strengths and weaknesses of each argument. If you really want something enough no one can persuade you other wise. I remember that I wanted the LG Optimus One so badly despite reviews for it claiming that it had a hardware issue with the touch screen, I still went a bought it.

    The sooner we realize that people are always going to judge, and stop trying to please everyone other than ourselves, we will live happier and more peaceful lives.
    Last edited by Llordy; 10-17-2014 at 12:23 PM.
    10-17-2014 12:00 PM
  10. fatclue_98's Avatar
    I remember that I wanted the LG Optimus One so badly despite reviews for it claiming that it have a hardware issue with the touch screen, I still went a bought it.
    Don't feel bad, I have the LG Intuition, which is easily the most trashed phone by reviewers ever, and I love it. It has the same exact width as the 1520 yet "it's too wide, who would want this" is a typical ******** point. Go figure.
    10-17-2014 12:19 PM
  11. colinkiama's Avatar
    lol it doesn't make sense in the US. Carriers agree to sell a device exclusively than the salesman says oh no don't by a windows phone? It makes no sense! Maybe Microsoft should just focus on other countries instead. so you can't really blame Microsoft for a biased salesman.
    10-17-2014 12:44 PM
  12. tgp's Avatar
    lol it doesn't make sense in the US. Carriers agree to sell a device exclusively than the salesman says oh no don't by a windows phone? It makes no sense! Maybe Microsoft should just focus on other countries instead. so you can't really blame Microsoft for a biased salesman.
    The ones who decide which devices to carry are not the same ones actually selling (or not selling!) to the customers.

    Sent from whatever device I happen to be using today using Tapatalk
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    10-17-2014 12:50 PM
  13. RobinPaul's Avatar
    I blame Microsoft a little too. Cause if you look at there apps, like outlook, bing, office, onenote & SKYPE. they are way more superior on Android than there own OS. I know this cause i switch from a HTC 8X to a Samasung Galaxy S4 and Skype especially is 10 times better than on WP. Microsoft prefers to make better apps on other platforms than on there own.
    techiez and Bodeanicus like this.
    10-17-2014 02:38 PM
  14. tgp's Avatar
    I blame Microsoft a little too.
    I agree with this. Microsoft is at least partly to blame for not making an OS that is a must-have. In order to compel users of other platforms to switch, it must be a lot better, not merely match. For the most part users of iPhone & Android are content, which doesn't make it any easier to draw them away.

    Not that Microsoft could do a lot better than they are. Apple & Google are both at the top of their game, and to blow them out of the water would be extremely hard to do. And considering the head start they had, it's a tough act to follow. All 3 of them are at the cutting edge of current technology. One might excel in one area, while another has a different strength. But overall, taking all things into consideration, they're roughly equal.
    MikeX74 likes this.
    10-17-2014 02:55 PM
  15. Visa Declined's Avatar
    Apple & Google are both at the top of their game, and to blow them out of the water would be extremely hard to do. And considering the head start they had, it's a tough act to follow.
    Microsoft has been making Phone operating systems longer than both Apple AND Google.
    10-17-2014 10:13 PM
  16. tgp's Avatar
    Microsoft has been making Phone operating systems longer than both Apple AND Google.
    That's true. I had WP7 in mind as the starting point since it was the beginning of Microsoft's modern mobile OS. But yes, Microsoft was in mobile long before that.
    10-17-2014 10:42 PM
  17. poddie's Avatar
    Microsoft has been making Phone operating systems longer than both Apple AND Google.
    Anyone who doesn't recognize that the iPhone was a quantum leap forward has their head in a bag. That was definitely the starting point of this generation of phone operating systems.

    I used Windows Mobile for many years. It was definitely not ideal... though I enjoyed using it for what it was.
    10-17-2014 10:45 PM
  18. Paul Verizzo's Avatar
    Well maybe the agent is speaking from experience? Just a thought.

    A carrier doesn't care what OS or what item it sells, as long as it sells. It's pure business.

    If people were clamoring for Blackberry devices then carriers would carry more Blackberry items.
    Everyone has biases. And that's w/o things you may never know about like sales promotions for particular items.

    If you worked in a phone store, would not your bias lead people to the WP's?

    Of course.

    Like religions, biases have little to do with fact. More with legend and mythology.
    10-18-2014 08:27 AM
  19. Paul Verizzo's Avatar
    And then there's the odd model overlap of the 925, sold by both ATT and TMO. Yet very different in data bands and Wifi Calling (none on the ATT.)

    Prepurchase of Nokia by MS, I think all the contracts were between the carriers and MS. Remember, WP is the operating system, just like Android is. Android does not contract with carriers.

    In the old days when voice was voice and the only difference in carriers around the world was, "Which of four bands?" one phone model could literally cover the world, especially once four band became common. Data was voice tech based, 2G and 3G on GSM. Once we moved to data exclusive frequencies and technologies, we started to need carrier exclusive phones.

    Of course, even before then, every carrier wanted their imprimatur on the phones. Boot screen, custom apps, etc.
    10-18-2014 08:37 AM
  20. techiez's Avatar
    lol it doesn't make sense in the US. Carriers agree to sell a device exclusively than the salesman says oh no don't by a windows phone? It makes no sense! Maybe Microsoft should just focus on other countries instead. so you can't really blame Microsoft for a biased salesman.
    Does MS offer any incentives to carriers who would in turn pass it onto stores and then eventually salesmen? these devices are beautiful, so its difficult to avoid them if placed on front, now why do these sales ppl push customers to Android what are the incentives?

    These are all valid questions I believe, carriers or stores dont have bias to WP specifically, they try to sell things which get them max profit, carriers might hv included WP in their line up but for stores, may be Androids are getting them more margins, WP being still in nascent stage requires MS to have a very good incentives program, WP did well in countries where Nokia used its supply chain partners to promote the phones using good incentives, In India, every reasonably mid to big store had WP specialists with colorful lumia t shirts with Nokia branding and the phones were given prime space in stores, is it the same situation in US? if not then yes MS is to be blamed.
    10-18-2014 08:49 AM
  21. Ruined's Avatar
    Microsoft has a giant pile of money. Regardless of the carriers current behavior, money can fix pretty much anything. But MS has not yet invested the big bucks they will need to in order to solve their carrier problem.
    techiez and Bodeanicus like this.
    10-18-2014 08:51 AM
  22. techiez's Avatar
    Microsoft has been making Phone operating systems longer than both Apple AND Google.
    and yet it a lot of time to bring WP at par with IOS n Android isnt it? when WP7 & WP7.5 was brought and considering MS reputation as an OS company everyone was excited, developers were interested but WP was very very closed with very limited APIs so most developers waited/couldnt develop much for WP and then slowly as API's were brought in it was clear that marketshare was gng nowwhere so developers lost interest
    10-18-2014 08:53 AM
  23. savagelizards's Avatar
    Yes, Microsoft deserves the blame for the lack of sales of its own products.

    Is that fair? Well, what about life has taught you that anything is fair? But certainly it took them until 2014 to reach parity with the other phone OSes. They squandered many chances to be the,leader along the way. They certainly have compensation in the form of patent revenue to show for their efforts, but why should any carrier bother at this point? It just makes life harder for them, especially when these poor selling phones generate so many FCC complaints from disgruntled users.

    Personally, I think Microsoft is going to cede the high-end first world market and try building market share in emerging countries where they can be the most fully-featured value player, then return with Windows 10 for another bite of the apple.

    Until then, I love my Icon, and certainly hope I can get firmware directly from Microsoft, where I bought my phone in the first place. My real worry is that in two years there will be nothing to replace it with.
    Bodeanicus and techiez like this.
    10-18-2014 11:12 AM
  24. Richard Culverhouse's Avatar
    ...Like religions, biases have little to do with fact. More with legend and mythology...
    A dig at the iCult there...? /S
    10-18-2014 11:48 AM
  25. Immortal Lobster's Avatar
    You would be correct in your analysis of my grammar if you looked at exclaim purely by its intransitive function. But I think you will find, if you look at is transitive function and definition, you will find it means to speak whilst impassioned or of strong opinion or will, or to speak with a vehement opinion.

    Before you decide to call someone out for ignorance, maybe it would be best to check that you, yourself are not also speaking from a perspective of ignorance.


    Also, I'm astounded that you looked right past the point of the emails message and decided to rather latch on to is grammar. Seriously?
    10-18-2014 02:03 PM
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