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11-25-2014 11:40 AM
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  1. Rodrigo Mendes's Avatar
    I'm wondering why JPEG have such a bad compression on Lumia devices. The color accuracy is just awful and contrast level too (it's too much on daily shots). Only noise reduction works well on Lumia JPEG treatment.

    The picture below is a JPEG from Lumia. The second picture is a DNG exported to JPEG on Lightroom (without any treatment). Look the huge difference between them.





    I really hope for changes on Denim Update. Because for now my JPEG pics are useless. I always need to convert on Lightroom or use RAWER app (it's not perfect, don't have the correct Lumia profile for DNG pics like Lightroom).

    ps.: Lumia 930.
    11-23-2014 04:21 PM
  2. Dot Matrix's Avatar
    Denim is supposed to bring better image algorithms. When I first bought my 920, images were 100x times worse than they are now, and were processed with extremely high ISO, causing severe graininess.

    If your camera doesn't support shooting in RAW format, you're pretty much stuck with the processing algorithm.
    11-23-2014 04:27 PM
  3. EspHack's Avatar
    you can shoot in RAW with the 930
    11-24-2014 09:39 AM
  4. Rodrigo Mendes's Avatar
    @Esphack Did you actually read what I wrote?

    I know 930 can take DNG/RAW pics and that's exactly what I used on comparison above.

    I just want my JPEG pics looks exaclty like the DNG ones, but with noise reduction only.
    11-24-2014 11:21 AM
  5. jojoe42's Avatar
    @Esphack Did you actually read what I wrote?

    I know 930 can take DNG/RAW pics and that's exactly what I used on comparison above.

    I just want my JPEG pics looks exaclty like the DNG ones, but with noise reduction only.
    I usually set the white balance manually, and then leave the rest on auto in Lumia Camera. Works perfectly.
    11-24-2014 11:57 AM
  6. Rodrigo Mendes's Avatar
    I usually set the white balance manually, and then leave the rest on auto in Lumia Camera. Works perfectly.
    WB is not the problem. Look the huge difference between color accuracy in pictures below. The couple on the right side have really bad color compression on JPEG and looks beautiful and accurate on DNG.
    jojoe42 likes this.
    11-24-2014 01:44 PM
  7. RumoredNow's Avatar
    I think you are comparing apples and oranges. Jpg is jpg and DNG is... well RAW on the Adobe standard.

    How about Lumia jpg vs Samsung jpg vs iPhone jpg at the same MP level. Then try Lumia DNG vs Samsung DNG vs iPhone DNG (oh wait... my mistake on that second one; they both can only convert jpg to RAW with post shot processing).
    11-24-2014 02:00 PM
  8. Rodrigo Mendes's Avatar
    I think you are comparing apples and oranges.
    I don't see any problem on this comparison. DNG is a raw picture, so JPEG need to be almost accurate as DNG. It's expected some treatment or even quality loss on JPEG process, but not like we can see on this comparison. It's just too much.
    11-24-2014 04:54 PM
  9. iamtim's Avatar
    so JPEG need to be almost accurate as DNG
    ...whaaaaaat?

    DNG is a lossless format, JPG is a lossy, compressed format. How can you possibly have "almost" equally accurate results between a lossless, non-compressed format, and a lossy, compressed format?
    11-24-2014 05:02 PM
  10. fishfacemcgee's Avatar
    ...whaaaaaat?

    DNG is a lossless format, JPG is a lossy, compressed format. How can you possibly have "almost" equally accurate results between a lossless, non-compressed format, and a lossy, compressed format?
    Well, given how the second image is a JPG (just originally captured as a RAW image), that's how. He even says himself that he expects there to be some compression artifacting, but there's overall picture quality differences (color accuracy/white balance/etc.) that shouldn't be only due to the compression.

    Presumably, the JPG-from-raw image doesn't look dramatically different from the original DNG. I imagine Rodrigo's thinking is that the Lumia should be functionally similar to capturing as RAW and saving to JPG without processing.
    Rodrigo Mendes likes this.
    11-24-2014 05:19 PM
  11. sisqo88's Avatar
    I think he means the color accuracy. The old Nokia N Serie cameras like the Nokia N8 and 808 got really accurate colors and the pictures looks so good. After Daimin Dinig leaves Nokia and the Lumias came the pictures getting oversaturated not right colored, to yellowish or to green and and and.
    11-24-2014 05:36 PM
  12. RumoredNow's Avatar
    I don't see any problem on this comparison. DNG is a raw picture, so JPEG need to be almost accurate as DNG. It's expected some treatment or even quality loss on JPEG process, but not like we can see on this comparison. It's just too much.
    Even if the software used to open the jpg and the dng the same, doesn't the dng by it's very nature receive some interpretive processing?
    11-24-2014 05:51 PM
  13. blue1k's Avatar
    I think he means the color accuracy. The old Nokia N Serie cameras like the Nokia N8 and 808 got really accurate colors and the pictures looks so good. After Daimin Dinig leaves Nokia and the Lumias came the pictures getting oversaturated not right colored, to yellowish or to green and and and.
    Exactly.

    I think most of you are missing the OP's focus here. Why are the jpeg algorithms ruining white balance. I can take same photo on another phone using same iso, exposure, and have much better white balance in the produces jpeg. This is a big problem I have the current Cyan firmware. White balance is terrible indoors compared to an iPhone, S5, or Z3. I really hope MS does a good job in correcting this in Denim.

    But I disagree on the compression. I think the jpegs have a good processing algorithm with very little aberrations. Look at an S5 jpeg and you can see how bad the jpeg processing with noise reduction and over sharpening really is
    BatteryLife likes this.
    11-24-2014 06:32 PM
  14. Mr Lebowski's Avatar
    Color balance for accuracy ? no just tonal correctness - 1 click

    wp_jpega.jpgwp_jpegb.jpg
    11-24-2014 07:59 PM
  15. techiez's Avatar
    I think you are comparing apples and oranges. Jpg is jpg and DNG is... well RAW on the Adobe standard.

    How about Lumia jpg vs Samsung jpg vs iPhone jpg at the same MP level. Then try Lumia DNG vs Samsung DNG vs iPhone DNG (oh wait... my mistake on that second one; they both can only convert jpg to RAW with post shot processing).
    is this comment even worth posting? OP is talking abt image processing algos of Nokia y bring samsung n iphone into this, btw iphone does much better job at color reproduction than lumias, also assuming both samsung n iphones are worse than Lumia stillif lumia is bad then its bad, thats wat op is saying, by bringing in samsung n iphone to compare u r digressing.
    11-24-2014 08:02 PM
  16. Rodrigo Mendes's Avatar
    ...whaaaaaat?

    DNG is a lossless format, JPG is a lossy, compressed format. How can you possibly have "almost" equally accurate results between a lossless, non-compressed format, and a lossy, compressed format?
    You know................. Both pics are JPEG here.

    So... Yes, the JPEG could have the same quality of DNG if you using the correct tools.

    I think he means the color accuracy. The old Nokia N Serie cameras like the Nokia N8 and 808 got really accurate colors and the pictures looks so good. After Daimin Dinig leaves Nokia and the Lumias came the pictures getting oversaturated not right colored, to yellowish or to green and and and.
    Exaclty. The JPEG from Lumia have washed colors, looks like ISO 3200 shot. It's not right. The compression process should not have this huge quality loss.

    Exactly.

    I think most of you are missing the OP's focus here. Why are the jpeg algorithms ruining white balance. I can take same photo on another phone using same iso, exposure, and have much better white balance in the produces jpeg. This is a big problem I have the current Cyan firmware. White balance is terrible indoors compared to an iPhone, S5, or Z3. I really hope MS does a good job in correcting this in Denim.

    But I disagree on the compression. I think the jpegs have a good processing algorithm with very little aberrations. Look at an S5 jpeg and you can see how bad the jpeg processing with noise reduction and over sharpening really is
    S5 compression process is awful too. Even worst than any other device I ever put my hands on. The sharpness treatment is too much and noise reduction is bad too. The last update just turn the things worst than never for S5 owners.

    Bad Auto WB is on Lumia since my first one, Lumia 710. So I don't think it will be better. But that is not what I talking about here. It's not bad WB. It's the bad compression processing and I hope Denim bring better results for us.

    Well, given how the second image is a JPG (just originally captured as a RAW image), that's how. He even says himself that he expects there to be some compression artifacting, but there's overall picture quality differences (color accuracy/white balance/etc.) that shouldn't be only due to the compression.

    Presumably, the JPG-from-raw image doesn't look dramatically different from the original DNG. I imagine Rodrigo's thinking is that the Lumia should be functionally similar to capturing as RAW and saving to JPG without processing.
    Yes, that's excaclty what I mean.

    Lumia JPEG should looks just like the second JPEG. Should not have washed, inaccurate and poor colors like we have on first one.
    Last edited by Rodrigo Mendes; 11-24-2014 at 08:41 PM.
    11-24-2014 08:29 PM
  17. realwarder's Avatar
    I think you're missing the fact that one is a RAW file and the other a JPG. And yes, I know you're saying that, but the point of the RAW file is to store the file before things like color temperature are applied, whereas the JPG is afterwards. That is how my Canon DSLR is anyway - the RAW file has sufficient detail to recreate the JPG when simulating what post processing the camera applied, but doesn't have to look the same.

    Here is what a website says about RAW to backup what I'm saying.

    • not an image file per se (it will require special software to view, though this software is easy to get).
    • typically a proprietary format (with the exception of Adobe’s DNG format that isn’t widely used yet).
    • at least 8 bits per color – red, green, and blue (12-bits per X,Y location), though most DSLRs record 12-bit color (36-bits per location).
    • uncompressed (an 8 megapixel camera will produce a 8 MB Raw file).
    • the complete (lossless) data from the camera’s sensor.
    • higher in dynamic range (ability to display highlights and shadows).
    • lower in contrast (flatter, washed out looking).
    • not as sharp.
    • not suitable for printing directly from the camera or without post processing.

    ...

    So while you prefer your RAW file, the JPG is the camera's guess at what the real scene was like. In this instance you don't like it as much.
    11-24-2014 08:59 PM
  18. RumoredNow's Avatar
    is this comment even worth posting? OP is talking abt image processing algos of Nokia y bring samsung n iphone into this, btw iphone does much better job at color reproduction than lumias, also assuming both samsung n iphones are worse than Lumia stillif lumia is bad then its bad, thats wat op is saying, by bringing in samsung n iphone to compare u r digressing.
    I thought it WAS worth posting...

    He's trying to compare a jpg to a dng. Lumia is fortunate to be the ONLY smartphone to capture dng. My little dig at Samsung and iPhone was meant to illustrate that the superior format will look better and why slam Lumia for offering him a means to compare these apples and oranges?

    If Samsung or iPhone did the same, the dng there would make the jpg look poor by comparison. It is circuitous logic, but self-contained and germane, IMHO.

    BTW the dng is straight from the sensor and at 16 or 19MP (depending on aspect ratio). The jpg is 5MP and oversampled. They will never look the same. Does an apple look the same as an orange?
    iamtim and jmshub like this.
    11-24-2014 09:16 PM
  19. Mr Lebowski's Avatar

    Lumia JPEG should looks just like the second JPEG. Should not have washed, inaccurate and poor colors like we have on first one.
    I hate to be the one that breaks the news to you, but not everyone sees color balance or saturation alike, including you.
    Out of curiosity which picture of yours that I posted do you "like" or think is more "accurate" ?
    Last edited by Mr Lebowski; 11-24-2014 at 10:16 PM.
    RumoredNow likes this.
    11-24-2014 10:04 PM
  20. iamtim's Avatar
    BTW the dng is straight from the sensor and at 16 or 19MP (depending on aspect ratio). The jpg is 5MP and oversampled. They will never look the same.
    So much this. The idea that they should be the same is... ludicrous.
    11-25-2014 12:18 AM
  21. a5cent's Avatar
    OP
    - What are the file sizes of the two JPGs, and at what quality level was the JPG in Light Room saved?
    - Is it correct that the JPG pulled from the camera remained completely unaltered, i.e. was never saved by an image processor?

    I don't think the colour is necessarily a problem, as that can all be corrected in post. The main problem I see is the loss of detail in dark areas, and I'm wondering if that is a result of compression or something else.
    11-25-2014 12:38 AM
  22. sisqo88's Avatar
    The first big PureView battle: Nokia 808 vs Lumia 1020
    Here wo go guys. Look how extremely different the color reproduction and white balance are on both phones.
    I think if Damian Dining still were in Nokia than the Lumia Series would have a better white balance. He loves natural and real colored pictures.
    11-25-2014 02:20 AM
  23. Rodrigo Mendes's Avatar
    I'm realizing that having bring this discussion was just a big waste of time. A BIG.

    So I ask for moderation to close this topic.

    I don't think people are prepared to understand and discuss about image quality here. Clearly most don't have sufficient knowledge to discuss and it's meaningless continues this crazyness.

    I hate to be the one that breaks the news to you, but not everyone sees color balance or saturation alike, including you.
    Out of curiosity which picture of yours that I posted do you "like" or think is more "accurate" ?
    Yeah, probably I have a ET monitor technology or something. Or my eyes have powers like superman.

    Anyway, if you don't see any difference between theses pictures, probably I don't have much to discuss with you.

    So while you prefer your RAW file, the JPG is the camera's guess at what the real scene was like. In this instance you don't like it as much.
    Absolutely not. The colors on JPEG from Lumia are washed out. I don't have superman vision, but I really don't think I see washed colors in real world.


    BTW the dng is straight from the sensor and at 16 or 19MP (depending on aspect ratio). The jpg is 5MP and oversampled. They will never look the same. Does an apple look the same as an orange?
    OMG, there's nothing to do with megapixel or resolution.

    I know my english is not that good, but looking at the posts here, I think I'm wrinting in german, latin or japanese.

    OP
    - What are the file sizes of the two JPGs, and at what quality level was the JPG in Light Room saved?
    - Is it correct that the JPG pulled from the camera remained completely unaltered, i.e. was never saved by an image processor?

    I don't think the colour is necessarily a problem, as that can all be corrected in post. The main problem I see is the loss of detail in dark areas, and I'm wondering if that is a result of compression or something else.
    1) Image quality and accuracy have nothing to do with size or resolution of a picture. Even on a comparison.
    2) No, JPEG will never have the same quality from DNG file. But the results of Lumia compression are just pathetic with a huge quality loss.

    The loss of detail is expected from JPEG files, specially on dark areas.
    Last edited by Rodrigo Mendes; 11-25-2014 at 05:49 AM.
    11-25-2014 05:32 AM
  24. anon(5841099)'s Avatar
    I am going to be a jerk and say that the OP has very little knowledge about photography while making claims trying to sound like a pro :). He's done it before in some other threads ;).

    The JPG is the RAW information processed by an algorithm in the phone. This algorithm is set up to hopefully appeal to the masses, with some punchy contrast and color treatment. It will not be to everybody's taste. That will be the case with every single phone. In your images, it applies a slightly different tint, does something to the highlights and saturation and more.

    It's really not a huge difference, and you have the RAW to make the image into whatever does please you. So stop over reacting :).
    11-25-2014 05:37 AM
  25. Rodrigo Mendes's Avatar
    I am going to be a jerk and say that the OP has very little knowledge about photography while making claims trying to sound like a pro :). He's done it before in some other threads ;).

    The JPG is the RAW information processed by an algorithm in the phone. This algorithm is set up to hopefully appeal to the masses, with some punchy contrast and color treatment. It will not be to everybody's taste. That will be the case with every single phone. In your images, it applies a slightly different tint, does something to the highlights and saturation and more.

    It's really not a huge difference, and you have the RAW to make the image into whatever does please you. So stop over reacting :).
    One more who don't understand nothing about photography talking about taste when COLOR ACCURACY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH TASTE..

    It's just pointless. Please close this topic. It's like talking about soccer with ping pong fans who hates soccer. Never gonna work.

    Anyway, JPEG is great on Lumia, DNG pics are bad. JPEG is very similar to DNG and JPEG is not to be similar to DNG. Great things we learned on this topic!!! LOOOOL

    Please just close this.
    Last edited by Rodrigo Mendes; 11-25-2014 at 08:32 AM.
    11-25-2014 08:20 AM
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