And the less capable models don't get all of the improvements from the OS and/or firmware. Same thing is happening with WP. MS just came out and finally cleared it up by saying Denim is the same as Cyan on the Models that don't have the power to use the new camera features. This also means if you already have Cyan just install Preview for Developers and you are at "Denim" on all devices except the 1520, Icon and 930. This could be why VZW was semi quick to release Denim in the US (except for the Icon) because they never released Cyan. AT&T has very little to gain by releasing Denim on most models (all except the 1520) because the users can already get 100% of the features by simply installing PfD.
This fragmentation of Lumia Denim is confusing!
- Thread starter rory753
- Start date
And the less capable models don't get all of the improvements from the OS and/or firmware. Same thing is happening with WP. MS just came out and finally cleared it up by saying Denim is the same as Cyan on the Models that don't have the power to use the new camera features. This also means if you already have Cyan just install Preview for Developers and you are at "Denim" on all devices except the 1520, Icon and 930. This could be why VZW was semi quick to release Denim in the US (except for the Icon) because they never released Cyan. AT&T has very little to gain by releasing Denim on most models (all except the 1520) because the users can already get 100% of the features by simply installing PfD.
yes. the lumia 830 as far as I know is unable to download camera 5.0 due to the firmware not being there when shipped. or something. If I'm wrong, please correct me and point my to the right place, but as far as I can tell from what others have posted and my experience, a lumia 830 with denim needs a further denim update.
but, they all get the updates(even if they are lesser), and at the same time as the newer models, and they know what they got.
The DP is good, but when there are actual hardware upgrades needed, such as miracast or Bluetooth LTE, etc, we need the updates to complete the update experience(8.1DP broke Bluetooth 4.0 until cyan came back and fixed it). and there is really no reason the firmware shouldn't be tied into the DP, especially since lumias are part of Microsoft now.
this is also an aside from what my original whine about how lumia denim is now fragmented from a firmware perspective.
xandros9
Active member
and Apple has the clout to bypass carriers completely, as well as only have one manufacturer (itself) to deal with.
but please, this Denim "fragmentation" is a non-issue. Some phones have more features than others, but that isn't really "fragmentation."
Can you please explain why this is a non-issue? Lumia camera 5.0 is not available for people who have the lumia 830 with denim, and when people tried to upgrade it, it asked them to update their phone? to me, this seems that they have fragmented denim. Or there is a problem with the app. either way, there is an issue. and denim appears to have been fragmented for owners of the lumia 830.
Apple doesn't bypass the carriers, but they give them a strict deadline to have the update ready. The last I heard, WP is installed on over 100 devices, and Android is on at least 1,600 different devices. This obviously creates an update nightmare. That's why Microsoft and Google cannot push the updates themselves.
Apple updates their phones for 3 years after release. The iPhone 4 did not get updated to iOS 8, but the 4s did. The 4s will not get iOS 9 if they follow their current pattern.
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realwarder
New member
What would probably help is if Microsoft drop the whole 'firmware version' and 'OS version' and 'firmware name' and just call it 8.2. Or 10.0 from here on.
Sure, DP could have 10.0.12345.1 etc. but for real Releases, just keep it simple.
In the background phones may get extra firmware updates in a Release, but hide it like it's hidden for iOS users. People don't care and get emotional when they feel they're missing out, despite not even understanding what the difference between it all is.
Sure, DP could have 10.0.12345.1 etc. but for real Releases, just keep it simple.
In the background phones may get extra firmware updates in a Release, but hide it like it's hidden for iOS users. People don't care and get emotional when they feel they're missing out, despite not even understanding what the difference between it all is.
realwarder
New member
Yes. The difference is Apple has the power to lead. Contractually I suspect if they don't test and release on time they get dropped as a carrier. Simple motivation.
For WP, carriers care a lot less, and also to be fair, there are a LOT of Lumia variants because of carrier customizations. Microsoft really need to separate the carrier options from the OS update to simplify the process. E.g. carrier apps and logo shouldn't be in the image making each one unique but rather be installed once active on the network from a central MS server.
I wonder why they can't update like this. After all, this is exactly how Windows is updated.
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realwarder
New member
fiveaces01
New member
this whole issue could have been sidestepped if MS would release a new phone with some quality hardware, instead of all these junk phones they are flooding the low end of the market with. None of those devices will be able to run all the features that MS will be advertising...like the Hey Cortana and the Camera features that really set the Nokia line apart. No one wants to buy a Flagship that is already over a year old and will be soon also left behind if how they are treating the 920 is any indication
a5cent
New member
I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding you, but such apps aren't in the OS image. They are downloaded on initial setup from the store. The OS image contains absolutely nothing carrier specific. Carrier logos are configured as part of the firmware...
That's the only reason why the PfD program works... everyone gets the same OS image.
Mr Lebowski
New member
I'm always so amazed by how much a PHONE can ruin someone's day...Jesus Christos a bunch on people in France got slaughter by a group is sick fanatics who claim that *od ( I don't wanna be killed for just saying the word ) is on their side and "This fragmentation of Lumia Denim is confusing ! " rules the day in some peoples lives. No wonder the world is so F-up. 
Edit: nothing personal OP...
Edit: nothing personal OP...
colinkiama
New member
You are getting your update, calm down. Some phones aren't even getting camera improvements, you should be grateful.
realwarder
New member
Yes... Well there is a big overlap in the OS and firmware on these devices that is unrequired. If you recover a phone you get a bunch of carrier apps installed. Apps are typically OS related. Firmware is typically radio baseband firmware and boot loader etc. It's not exactly a clean cut. When you hard reset the phone it contains the carrier apps etc. in the flash recovery image. Remove much of that and then there become many less variants of updates to manage. Probably only 2 or 3 master recovery images globally per phone type. Unlike today where there are 50.
jasqid
Member
When the 830 was announced, many folks (including myself) griped about this device. Mainly because they were touting it as "an affordable flagship". The bottom line is that it was a lesser phone compared to what was already out. And as some of the others already mentioned, if you read the specs or any of the news about this you may have seen that this wasn't a model for you.
IMO the 830 is one those devices that was 2 steps forward and 4 steps backward. And I smh at Nokia/MS for releasing this when the 930/1520 are better overall.
IMO the 830 is one those devices that was 2 steps forward and 4 steps backward. And I smh at Nokia/MS for releasing this when the 930/1520 are better overall.
Not sure what is so confusing here or the major fragmentation is.. This is going to down the road like Android and iOS have been for years. Older models will not get X feature because of it's hardware spec. This is NOT new by any means. You cant just expect magic on a software update.
Lower models come out to meet a certain price point in the marketplace. A lot of WP devices are lower spec but, dam a good deal for the features they DO have. When they have to hit this price point, they have to take things away, in this case people are upset with no reason to be. You paid for a lower end phone, you are getting what you paid for.
If I remember correctly, the new camera updates and "Hey Cortana" always said the 930, ICON, 1520, even when it was first announced and something in a little "*" somewhere that features would be based on hardware.
If you have a model that does not support "X" feature, I'm sorry to hear that but, instead of crying about it, get a new phone that supports "X" feature or deal with it.
Lower models come out to meet a certain price point in the marketplace. A lot of WP devices are lower spec but, dam a good deal for the features they DO have. When they have to hit this price point, they have to take things away, in this case people are upset with no reason to be. You paid for a lower end phone, you are getting what you paid for.
If I remember correctly, the new camera updates and "Hey Cortana" always said the 930, ICON, 1520, even when it was first announced and something in a little "*" somewhere that features would be based on hardware.
If you have a model that does not support "X" feature, I'm sorry to hear that but, instead of crying about it, get a new phone that supports "X" feature or deal with it.
realwarder
New member
Drifting totally OT, but... 830 would have been great with a SD800 processor. It wouldn't have undermined sales of the 1520 since people buy that for a large screen. And since the 930 isn't even available in the US, wouldn't have done anything to impact sales of that either.
Oh well. Perhaps we'll see some more high end phones soon.
a5cent
New member
I think I understand what you're saying now, but I suspect your likely thinking about it in the wrong way.
It doesn't make sense to approach the issue by asking yourself if apps are more OS related than they are firmware related. The answer to that question is quite arbitrary and of no practical relevance. What does matter is who is responsible for packaging/configuring those apps. That can only be either MS or the OEM (carriers don't directly participate in that type of work). Anything that carriers or OEMs may want to configure, which MS thinks they should be able to configure, is configurable via configuration files that are contained as part of the firmware image. None of that is part of the OS. That allows MS and OEMs to work independently of each other, thereby preventing overlap. That approach is also what makes the PfD program viable, because if carrier or OEM apps were bundled with the OS, MS would have a whole new level of pain to deal with when distributing those updates to PfD users.
With that said, I've never encountered a single carrier or OEM app that was directly embedded into the firmware image on the phone. Maybe that is different in the U.S. but every device I've ever helped setup has only ever included links to apps in the WP store, from where it was downloaded during initial setup. Just encountering a carrier's or OEM's app in your app list, after doing a hard reset, doesn't prove that the app resides on your device.
Anyway, in summary:
Packaged/Configured by OEM = in firmware image
Packaged by MS = in OS image
I think that denotes a very clear line without any overlap, or at least I don't see where the unrequired overlap exists.
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