01-22-2015 12:38 AM
69 123
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  1. rory753's Avatar
    but please, this Denim "fragmentation" is a non-issue. Some phones have more features than others, but that isn't really "fragmentation."
    Can you please explain why this is a non-issue? Lumia camera 5.0 is not available for people who have the lumia 830 with denim, and when people tried to upgrade it, it asked them to update their phone? to me, this seems that they have fragmented denim. Or there is a problem with the app. either way, there is an issue. and denim appears to have been fragmented for owners of the lumia 830.
    01-16-2015 04:44 PM
  2. tgp's Avatar
    and Apple has the clout to bypass carriers completely, as well as only have one manufacturer (itself) to deal with.
    Apple doesn't bypass the carriers, but they give them a strict deadline to have the update ready. The last I heard, WP is installed on over 100 devices, and Android is on at least 1,600 different devices. This obviously creates an update nightmare. That's why Microsoft and Google cannot push the updates themselves.

    Apple updates their phones for 3 years after release. The iPhone 4 did not get updated to iOS 8, but the 4s did. The 4s will not get iOS 9 if they follow their current pattern.

    Sent from whatever device I happen to be using today using Tapatalk
    Laura Knotek, aximtreo and a5cent like this.
    01-16-2015 05:41 PM
  3. realwarder's Avatar
    What would probably help is if Microsoft drop the whole 'firmware version' and 'OS version' and 'firmware name' and just call it 8.2. Or 10.0 from here on.

    Sure, DP could have 10.0.12345.1 etc. but for real Releases, just keep it simple.

    In the background phones may get extra firmware updates in a Release, but hide it like it's hidden for iOS users. People don't care and get emotional when they feel they're missing out, despite not even understanding what the difference between it all is.
    01-16-2015 08:23 PM
  4. realwarder's Avatar
    Apple doesn't bypass the carriers, but they give them a strict deadline to have the update ready. The last I heard, WP is installed on over 100 devices, and Android is on at least 1,600 different devices. This obviously creates an update nightmare. That's why Microsoft and Google cannot push the updates themselves.

    Apple updates their phones for 3 years after release. The iPhone 4 did not get updated to iOS 8, but the 4s did. The 4s will not get iOS 9 if they follow their current pattern.

    Sent from whatever device I happen to be using today using Tapatalk
    Yes. The difference is Apple has the power to lead. Contractually I suspect if they don't test and release on time they get dropped as a carrier. Simple motivation.

    For WP, carriers care a lot less, and also to be fair, there are a LOT of Lumia variants because of carrier customizations. Microsoft really need to separate the carrier options from the OS update to simplify the process. E.g. carrier apps and logo shouldn't be in the image making each one unique but rather be installed once active on the network from a central MS server.
    tgp likes this.
    01-16-2015 08:27 PM
  5. tgp's Avatar
    Microsoft really need to separate the carrier options from the OS update to simplify the process. E.g. carrier apps and logo shouldn't be in the image making each one unique but rather be installed once active on the network from a central MS server.
    I wonder why they can't update like this. After all, this is exactly how Windows is updated.

    Sent from whatever device I happen to be using today using Tapatalk
    01-16-2015 08:30 PM
  6. realwarder's Avatar
    I wonder why they can't update like this. After all, this is exactly how Windows is updated.

    Sent from whatever device I happen to be using today using Tapatalk
    Who knows. Sounds easy enough to me. Perhaps W10 will bring this. We can only dream.
    Montpbm likes this.
    01-16-2015 08:33 PM
  7. fiveaces01's Avatar
    this whole issue could have been sidestepped if MS would release a new phone with some quality hardware, instead of all these junk phones they are flooding the low end of the market with. None of those devices will be able to run all the features that MS will be advertising...like the Hey Cortana and the Camera features that really set the Nokia line apart. No one wants to buy a Flagship that is already over a year old and will be soon also left behind if how they are treating the 920 is any indication
    Montpbm and Tom Snyder like this.
    01-16-2015 09:01 PM
  8. a5cent's Avatar
    Microsoft really need to separate the carrier options from the OS update to simplify the process. E.g. carrier apps and logo shouldn't be in the image making each one unique but rather be installed once active on the network from a central MS server.

    I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding you, but such apps aren't in the OS image. They are downloaded on initial setup from the store. The OS image contains absolutely nothing carrier specific. Carrier logos are configured as part of the firmware...

    That's the only reason why the PfD program works... everyone gets the same OS image.
    01-16-2015 09:42 PM
  9. Mr Lebowski's Avatar
    I'm always so amazed by how much a PHONE can ruin someone's day...Jesus Christos a bunch on people in France got slaughter by a group is sick fanatics who claim that *od ( I don't wanna be killed for just saying the word ) is on their side and "This fragmentation of Lumia Denim is confusing ! " rules the day in some peoples lives. No wonder the world is so F-up.
    Edit: nothing personal OP...
    Montpbm, xandros9 and Al4video like this.
    01-17-2015 01:33 AM
  10. colinkiama's Avatar
    You are getting your update, calm down. Some phones aren't even getting camera improvements, you should be grateful.
    Montpbm, DavidinCT and xandros9 like this.
    01-17-2015 02:02 AM
  11. realwarder's Avatar
    I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding you, but such apps aren't in the OS image. They are downloaded on initial setup from the store. The OS image contains absolutely nothing carrier specific. Carrier logos are configured as part of the firmware...

    That's the only reason why the PfD program works... everyone gets the same OS image.
    Yes... Well there is a big overlap in the OS and firmware on these devices that is unrequired. If you recover a phone you get a bunch of carrier apps installed. Apps are typically OS related. Firmware is typically radio baseband firmware and boot loader etc. It's not exactly a clean cut. When you hard reset the phone it contains the carrier apps etc. in the flash recovery image. Remove much of that and then there become many less variants of updates to manage. Probably only 2 or 3 master recovery images globally per phone type. Unlike today where there are 50.
    01-17-2015 07:40 AM
  12. jasqid's Avatar
    When the 830 was announced, many folks (including myself) griped about this device. Mainly because they were touting it as "an affordable flagship". The bottom line is that it was a lesser phone compared to what was already out. And as some of the others already mentioned, if you read the specs or any of the news about this you may have seen that this wasn't a model for you.

    IMO the 830 is one those devices that was 2 steps forward and 4 steps backward. And I smh at Nokia/MS for releasing this when the 930/1520 are better overall.
    01-17-2015 08:09 AM
  13. DavidinCT's Avatar
    Not sure what is so confusing here or the major fragmentation is.. This is going to down the road like Android and iOS have been for years. Older models will not get X feature because of it's hardware spec. This is NOT new by any means. You cant just expect magic on a software update.

    Lower models come out to meet a certain price point in the marketplace. A lot of WP devices are lower spec but, dam a good deal for the features they DO have. When they have to hit this price point, they have to take things away, in this case people are upset with no reason to be. You paid for a lower end phone, you are getting what you paid for.

    If I remember correctly, the new camera updates and "Hey Cortana" always said the 930, ICON, 1520, even when it was first announced and something in a little "*" somewhere that features would be based on hardware.

    If you have a model that does not support "X" feature, I'm sorry to hear that but, instead of crying about it, get a new phone that supports "X" feature or deal with it.
    tgp likes this.
    01-17-2015 09:27 AM
  14. realwarder's Avatar
    When the 830 was announced, many folks (including myself) griped about this device. Mainly because they were touting it as "an affordable flagship". The bottom line is that it was a lesser phone compared to what was already out. And as some of the others already mentioned, if you read the specs or any of the news about this you may have seen that this wasn't a model for you.

    IMO the 830 is one those devices that was 2 steps forward and 4 steps backward. And I smh at Nokia/MS for releasing this when the 930/1520 are better overall.
    Drifting totally OT, but... 830 would have been great with a SD800 processor. It wouldn't have undermined sales of the 1520 since people buy that for a large screen. And since the 930 isn't even available in the US, wouldn't have done anything to impact sales of that either.

    Oh well. Perhaps we'll see some more high end phones soon.
    01-17-2015 10:05 AM
  15. a5cent's Avatar
    Yes... Well there is a big overlap in the OS and firmware on these devices that is unrequired. If you recover a phone you get a bunch of carrier apps installed. Apps are typically OS related. Firmware is typically radio baseband firmware and boot loader etc. It's not exactly a clean cut. When you hard reset the phone it contains the carrier apps etc. in the flash recovery image. Remove much of that and then there become many less variants of updates to manage. Probably only 2 or 3 master recovery images globally per phone type. Unlike today where there are 50.
    I think I understand what you're saying now, but I suspect your likely thinking about it in the wrong way.

    It doesn't make sense to approach the issue by asking yourself if apps are more OS related than they are firmware related. The answer to that question is quite arbitrary and of no practical relevance. What does matter is who is responsible for packaging/configuring those apps. That can only be either MS or the OEM (carriers don't directly participate in that type of work). Anything that carriers or OEMs may want to configure, which MS thinks they should be able to configure, is configurable via configuration files that are contained as part of the firmware image. None of that is part of the OS. That allows MS and OEMs to work independently of each other, thereby preventing overlap. That approach is also what makes the PfD program viable, because if carrier or OEM apps were bundled with the OS, MS would have a whole new level of pain to deal with when distributing those updates to PfD users.

    With that said, I've never encountered a single carrier or OEM app that was directly embedded into the firmware image on the phone. Maybe that is different in the U.S. but every device I've ever helped setup has only ever included links to apps in the WP store, from where it was downloaded during initial setup. Just encountering a carrier's or OEM's app in your app list, after doing a hard reset, doesn't prove that the app resides on your device.

    Anyway, in summary:
    Packaged/Configured by OEM = in firmware image
    Packaged by MS = in OS image
    I think that denotes a very clear line without any overlap, or at least I don't see where the unrequired overlap exists.
    xandros9 likes this.
    01-17-2015 12:42 PM
  16. Silviu Bogusevschi's Avatar
    830 should receive pretty much the same features for the camera as 930/1520 (except 4k). If you can't use it yet, then it's a temporary thing (or issue?).
    Anyway there should be no confusion at all if you listen to MS carefully. If they said that 830 will receive the features, then it will receive.
    01-17-2015 01:41 PM
  17. Zulfigar's Avatar
    I wonder why they can't update like this. After all, this is exactly how Windows is updated.

    Sent from whatever device I happen to be using today using Tapatalk
    Because OEMs and carriers like having their phones different in some manor. That's why each phone (not just Lumias) has a different firmware, while the OS stays the same.
    01-17-2015 02:55 PM
  18. Nabkawe5's Avatar
    I am sure also many other people have the same feelings about the 830 "advertisement". Let's hope that this was a first but also last "trick"
    I agree, there was very little explanation about the feature set of the 830, Lumia Camera should have never been advertised on the 830 only to come 3 months later to its users, I truly think 4k should've not been included in the demo.
    01-17-2015 03:53 PM
  19. BiggishTuba558's Avatar
    I am confused and frustrated by the lumia denim update.

    Microsoft has said that certain features would become available with lumia denim, particularily imaging would be vastly improved. softpay would be available, if you're carrier supports it, and some other minor improvements. When I bought the lumia 830, I was under the impression that since it had denim, I would have these updates.

    I was wrong.

    I expected the lack of softpay ability, and I accepted that this would be due to carriers not supporting the platform for some reason or another. What I didn't know was that Microsoft had fragmented Denim. Apparently, lumia denim which is the firmware update for Nokia/Microsoft lumias for when they upgrade to 8.1.1, was broken up. so apparently, my brand new lumia 830 has 8.1.1.1, but I have to get 8.1.1.2 in order for lumia camera 5.0 to work.

    This was not clear when they released denim. this was not clear when they talked about lumia camera 5.0. I feel Microsoft should not have advertised these features if they did not actual include them in denim. To me, this is true lying to the consumer in order to sell a device. I'm probably going to give Microsoft a pass, because let's face it, theres still enough there to like. but f*ck, I'm not recommending this device or others to friends.

    If you want a platform with a true, transparent update schedule and routine, go with iOS. for everything else, there's android and windows phone.
    If you want... a phone which can't be updated (unless you want it becomes unusable), go with iOS.
    hprvez likes this.
    01-17-2015 05:48 PM
  20. Mr Lebowski's Avatar
    830 should receive pretty much the same features for the camera as 930/1520 (except 4k). If you can't use it yet, then it's a temporary thing (or issue?).
    Anyway there should be no confusion at all if you listen to MS carefully. If they said that 830 will receive the features, then it will receive.
    I don't believe in fairy tales although sometimes they are entertaining and I believe less in those who have promise things but never delivered = Microsoft Windows Phone division.
    01-17-2015 07:50 PM
  21. Noahma's Avatar
    I had the home screen folders with P4D -- that is not a Denim feature.

    Does the 830 have the camera hardware necessary to run Camera 5.0??
    Yes, they demo'd the 830 with Camera 5, the only difference is no 4k recording. All other features that are with Camera 5 are going to the 830 as well.

    I wonder why they can't update like this. After all, this is exactly how Windows is updated.

    Sent from whatever device I happen to be using today using Tapatalk
    Windows is an OS, firmware are the drivers, so No, this is not how windows is updated.
    With PC's the drivers are all written by the respective hardware companies to work with the OS.



    You can look at it this way. Windows phone 8.1 or 8.1.1 etc. is the software
    (colored named update) is the firmware. Firmware is the driver package needed to run the hardware in the device.

    So what the 830 has now is Windows phone 8.1.1 with essentially Cyan (although Microsoft added the confusion with putting the Denim name over Cyan for devices not compatible with the new driver package (firmware))

    The Denim (driver package aka firmware) has to go through carrier approval / modification for the networks here in the US. My best guess is that Microsoft knowing the speed of the carriers pushed the 830 out before Christmas knowing it would not have access to camera 5 to get it out for holiday sales.
    A simple "*some features may not be available at time of release* would have sufficed. That is where all the confusion is coming from.

    This is not fragmentation, its older hardware not having the physical hardware to produce the results with the firmware. Fragmentation in Android happens because Google pushes the update to the manufacturers, who then write their customization of their version of android, and then push to the phones. The manufactures can have many devices on the market so they choose which ones they want to spend time and money to produce their flavor of android for. This generally leaves the low cost handsets out in the wind to rot, while the high end devices get the update for a period of time.
    01-17-2015 11:21 PM
  22. Julian Lee2000's Avatar
    Do you know if updates go through the same approval process for carriers in Canada? (Fido)
    01-18-2015 12:17 AM
  23. a5cent's Avatar
    Windows is an OS, firmware are the drivers....
    Again, no. This notion is misleading and has caused some confusion.

    Firmware is not "only" drivers.

    It also includes all the software and configurational information that changes between variants of the same device. That includes carrier and oem related images (branding), dozens of configuration files, and also includes software that users directly interact with, such as entries in the settings menu, or even entire carrier/oem specific apps.

    It's a lot more than what many think about when they hear "firmware".
    hprvez and xandros9 like this.
    01-18-2015 02:12 AM
  24. Silviu Bogusevschi's Avatar
    I don't believe in fairy tales although sometimes they are entertaining and I believe less in those who have promise things but never delivered = Microsoft Windows Phone division.
    Another example please?

    Also, it has been also discussed (mainly on another places). Paul Thurott at least agrees that 830 will receive a further update to be able to use the Lumia Camera. What's the problem?
    xandros9 likes this.
    01-18-2015 06:00 AM
  25. Citizen X's Avatar
    I know that they have 1 OS to maintain, but isn't the hardware different from the iphone 3 to the iphone 4 to the iphone 4s to the iphone 5 to the iphone 5s and iphone 5c to the iphone 6 and iphone 6 plus? wouldn't those require similar firmware updates?
    Have you even bothered to see how the latest iOS performs on iphone 3, 4 and even 5?

    My girlfriend's wifi stopped working entirely after update. No recourse. There are a million and one posts on the internet about those types of problems. I wonder why you are pretending those complaints don't exist.
    phirefly likes this.
    01-18-2015 11:09 AM
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