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01-22-2015 12:38 AM
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  1. Mr Lebowski's Avatar
    Another example please?

    Also, it has been also discussed (mainly on another places). Paul Thurott at least agrees that 830 will receive a further update to be able to use the Lumia Camera. What's the problem?
    and who cares what Paul Thurott says. MS also said all Nokia Lumia 8 will receive OS updates for 2 years...that never happened...that a was a promise made of bs.
    01-18-2015 02:01 PM
  2. a5cent's Avatar
    and who cares what Paul Thurott says. MS also said all Nokia Lumia 8 will receive OS updates for 2 years...that never happened...that a was a promise made of bs.
    MS never made such a promise. That was never more than a rumour, primarily based on false understandings of MS' lifecycle policies. That falsehood was repeated so many times that it, in many forums, eventually came to be accepted as true, although it never was.
    Last edited by a5cent; 01-18-2015 at 05:42 PM. Reason: spelling
    sahib lopez likes this.
    01-18-2015 03:14 PM
  3. Silviu Bogusevschi's Avatar
    and who cares what Paul Thurott says. MS also said all Nokia Lumia 8 will receive OS updates for 2 years...that never happened...that a was a promise made of bs.
    I guess everybody except you does care.

    By Lumia 8 you mean Lumias on WP 8? If you are the one on Sprint or you have an Icon or whatever, then ask your carrier, not MS, since the software is available for LITERALLY every single WP8 Lumia.

    I don't see any reason to argue with you whatsoever unless you will learn more about the updating process, knowledge is always helpful.
    01-18-2015 03:18 PM
  4. gMaesterUK's Avatar
    By Lumia 8 you mean Lumias on WP 8? If you are the one on Sprint or you have an Icon or whatever, then ask your carrier, not MS, since the software is available for LITERALLY every single WP8 Lumia.
    I think he meant the Lumia 800/810 (win 7/7.5/7.8) and similar range, which were built off the old CE kernel which wasn't updatable. MS moved to the NT kernel for the new (win 8) range.

    G.
    01-18-2015 03:37 PM
  5. Mr Lebowski's Avatar
    I guess everybody except you does care.

    By Lumia 8 you mean Lumias on WP 8? If you are the one on Sprint or you have an Icon or whatever, then ask your carrier, not MS, since the software is available for LITERALLY every single WP8 Lumia.

    I don't see any reason to argue with you whatsoever unless you will learn more about the updating process, knowledge is always helpful.
    I know how updates are normally provided. I meant WP8 AND when MS said ALL Window Phones 8 would be supported for 2 FULL years they knew that not ALL carries provide currant OS updates, They mean MS would make sure, there were no caveats or * with footnotes saying otherwise. MS said ALL current WP8 phones WILL be supported. Full Stop. If they meant "only if such and such happens...then they were playing clever which makes them even more suspect
    Last edited by Mr Lebowski; 01-18-2015 at 11:32 PM.
    01-18-2015 10:18 PM
  6. a5cent's Avatar
    when MS said ALL Window Phones 8 would be supported for 2 FULL years they knew that not ALL carries provide currant OS updates
    No. wrong. MS said nothing about promising updates for a full two years (what would that even mean? 1 update? 20 updates? 0 updates?)

    MS said two things:

    a) all devices will be upgradable. That is true, as the OS can run on any WP8 device. However, saying every device is upgradable is not the same as saying every device will be upgraded. MS only ever mentioned the former, which some people took to mean the later.

    b) MS will support each version of WP, for a duration of about two years, after release. That is true, because during the lifecycle support period, MS has staff on hand that are ready to help OEMs upgrade their devices to that latest version of WP. However, that promise is directed towards OEMs and how they would be supported in using that particular WP update. The lifecycle support period has nothing to do with end users and their desire for updates.

    MS chose their words carefully (although they could have elaborated a bit more). As always, people just heard what they wanted to hear, rather than what MS actually said. The internet rumour mill did the rest.
    Last edited by a5cent; 01-19-2015 at 11:44 AM. Reason: improved wording + formatting (no change to conetent or meaning)
    01-19-2015 02:29 AM
  7. Mr Lebowski's Avatar
    No. wrong. MS said nothing about promising updates for a full two years (what would that even mean? 1 update? 20 updates? 0 updates?)

    MS said two things:

    a) all devices will be upgradable. That is true, as the OS can run on any WP8 device. However, saying every device is upgradable is not the same as saying every device will be upgraded. MS only ever mentioned the former, which some people took to mean the later.

    b) MS will support each version of WP, for a duration of about two years, after release. That is true, because during the lifecycle support period, MS has staff on hand that are ready to help OEMs upgrade their devices to that latest version of WP. However, that promise is directed towards OEMs and how they would be supported in using that particular WP update. The lifecycle support period has nothing to do with end users and their desire for updates.

    MS chose their words carefully (although they could have elaborated a bit more). As always, people just heard what they wanted to hear, rather than what MS actually said. The internet rumour mill did the rest.
    Perhaps I was wrong, and perhaps you could post the EXACT link showing me where you are correct ?
    AND the numbers of APOLOGISTS for MS is astounding, they lie, mislead and outright fabricate press releases in order to boost sales.
    The Lumia 830 fiasco is a perfect example and I'm not going to show you, they still have the same drivel on their Windows Mobile site.
    01-19-2015 01:18 PM
  8. a5cent's Avatar
    ^ I wouldn't go so far as to say you were wrong. Most likely you were just repeating popular opinion.

    However, it's impossible to prove a negative, meaning it's both theoretically and practically impossible to prove that NO promise was made. Trying to is an utter waste of time. All anyone can prove is that MS did in fact make such a promise, which coincidentally should be trivial if it actually occurred. That's what I'd invite you to try. I have. I couldn't. All you can find are blogs misinterpreting MS' statements in that way, but nothing coming directly from MS.
    Last edited by a5cent; 01-19-2015 at 03:45 PM. Reason: last scentence
    Laura Knotek and sahib lopez like this.
    01-19-2015 02:14 PM
  9. Mr Lebowski's Avatar
    "MS' statements" ?????

    You can't even show links to "MS' statements" so why even reply, just to be contrary ?

    Apologists need not (re) apply
    Good luck :roll eyes: :roll eyes:
    01-19-2015 04:32 PM
  10. bijak_riyandi's Avatar
    I understand what is the root of this rant: misunderstanding in concept of updates, misreading in description, and impatience.

    Have some patience, dude...
    01-19-2015 04:53 PM
  11. Silviu Bogusevschi's Avatar
    "MS' statements" ?????

    You can't even show links to "MS' statements" so why even reply, just to be contrary ?

    Apologists need not (re) apply
    Good luck :roll eyes: :roll eyes:
    You didn't present at least one either.
    theefman likes this.
    01-19-2015 05:10 PM
  12. poddie's Avatar
    I have an AT&T non-Denim 1520. I am on developer preview and am upgraded to the latest update available with that.

    When I uncheck the developer preview setting in the app, and then check Extras & Info, it then says I have Denim.

    I thought this was only supposed to be the case for devices that will not receive new firmware or the advanced camera features? Why does my device say I have Denim, when I haven't gotten the firmware update?

    Somebody at Microsoft made a bad decision here in their labeling of this (these?) updates... it seems to me, if no firmware update has occurred, we shouldn't see a new firmware name listed. If the camera updates are not part of Denim, why don't they have their own name or version number? If I didn't know better, I'd look at my phone, believe I have Denim, and think it did nothing for my camera performance. There's a lot of confusion here, and frankly it IS Microsoft's fault for poorly communicating what the real situation is. Of course, the lateness of the "real" Denim camera update is only exacerbating the situation.
    01-19-2015 05:15 PM
  13. Martsicky's Avatar
    I have an AT&T non-Denim 1520. I am on developer preview and am upgraded to the latest update available with that.

    When I uncheck the developer preview setting in the app, and then check Extras & Info, it then says I have Denim.

    I thought this was only supposed to be the case for devices that will not receive new firmware or the advanced camera features? Why does my device say I have Denim, when I haven't gotten the firmware update?
    It is a well-known bug. Nothing to get excited about. You're yet to receive a real Denim update for your 1520 :)
    01-19-2015 05:28 PM
  14. poddie's Avatar
    It is a well-known bug. Nothing to get excited about. You're yet to receive a real Denim update for your 1520 :)
    I know about the bug, but I thought Windows Central reported it wasn't a bug, but rather that the low end phones really were on Denim because there is no firmware update for them. So it appears not only is that true, but it is also true that there is still a bug?

    My main point is that there is very good reason for people to be so confused. :-)
    01-19-2015 06:16 PM
  15. a5cent's Avatar
    "MS' statements" ?????

    You can't even show links to "MS' statements" so why even reply, just to be contrary ?

    Apologists need not (re) apply
    Good luck :roll eyes: :roll eyes:
    You already felt you had no other option than to make this personal? :-/ Ah well, I'll help you regardless:

    Bloggers incorrectly interpreting Microsoft's support lifecycle policy is the root cause for most of these misunderstandings, and it's also where the whole "but MS promised support for x years" issue comes from, so I'll quote that. The first sentence is the main culprit:

    "Microsoft will make updates available for the Operating System, including security updates, for a minimum of 36 months after the lifecycle start date."

    source


    Note that "make updates available for the Operating System", is not the same as "make updates available for devices" or better yet "develop and deploy OS updates to consumer's devices". The last take is what MS actually promising updates would have looked like.

    What MS is actually saying is that they will make OS updates available to OEMs. Microsoft isn't even saying that they will make updates at all. They are only saying that if they do make an OS update, OEMs can count on MS keeping both the update and staff that can support it on hand (available) for the duration of the support lifecycle....

    I can't do this type of thing for the dozens of documents and occasional blurb from an MS official, which somebody mistook as promise to them, from MS, that their personal device will be updated. I'd end up writing a book. It would be far easier for you to just find what you think clearly represents MS making such a promise and be done with it...

    I hope we can move on...
    dkediger, tgp and sahib lopez like this.
    01-19-2015 07:02 PM
  16. DavidinCT's Avatar



    Windows is an OS, firmware are the drivers, so No, this is not how windows is updated.
    Almost right, Sure think of the update as Windows Update on a PC when they add new features and fixes (AKA W 8 to 8.1), The FIRMWARE would be more like a BIOS update than drivers.

    This enables features device wide, the OS has the support for it, but, the phone itself does not have the features enabled at the lowest level
    01-20-2015 11:33 AM
  17. rory753's Avatar
    My original post was to point out the lumia 830 is advertised to come with lumia denim. Lumia Camera 5.0 is described to work with lumia denim. Lumia Denim is the update to Lumia Cyan.
    Here's the takeaway I get from this discussion:
    1. Yes, there are updates coming to WP8.1. even denim.
    2. Yes, apparently there is an update needed to enable lumia camera 5.0 on the lumia 830. This is the point that I think is missing from any discussion about lumia camera 5.0, or lumia 830.
    3. Yes, iOS updates go to the respective idevices, whether they're good or not. one thing I think is good about there update system is they do have an option to roll back the update(at least last time I checked).

    If anyone at Microsoft Mobile Devices is reading this, I hope they see that there is a way to improve the update process, and that any update process is far from ideal.
    01-20-2015 02:12 PM
  18. a5cent's Avatar
    If anyone at Microsoft Mobile Devices is reading this, I hope they see that there is a way to improve the update process, and that any update process is far from ideal.
    MS doesn't really need us to tell them this. They know. Back in 2011, MS was hoping to take the same approach to updates that Apple has. They tried, but couldn't get U.S. carriers to play along.
    Out of that ill fated approach was born the PfD program.
    Once MS can also distribute firmware as part of the PfD program, which they are allegedly working on, WP's update process will be technically very similar to Apple's, but only for those of us that have enrolled in the PfD program.
    It will be interesting to see in how their "Windows Insider program" for mobile devices pans out, and whether they'll be better at managing expectations this time around (are these beta updates or not?).
    01-21-2015 04:54 AM
  19. bijak_riyandi's Avatar
    My original post was to point out the lumia 830 is advertised to come with lumia denim. Lumia Camera 5.0 is described to work with lumia denim. Lumia Denim is the update to Lumia Cyan.
    Here's the takeaway I get from this discussion:
    1. Yes, there are updates coming to WP8.1. even denim.
    2. Yes, apparently there is an update needed to enable lumia camera 5.0 on the lumia 830. This is the point that I think is missing from any discussion about lumia camera 5.0, or lumia 830.
    .
    Remember that Lumia Camera 5.0 was not yet available at the time Lumia 830 released. They said that the Lumia Camera 5 will be available along with the global Lumia Denim rollout.

    About the allegedly needed update, the only way to confirm it is to compare the firmware version between the 830 used in the demo video back then and the current available firmware for 830.

    If that wasn't the case, maybe Microsoft blocked the Lumia Camera 5 to be downloaded from an 830 for some other reason. Possibly optimization...
    01-22-2015 12:38 AM
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