1. sp3ci4lk's Avatar
    The purpose of today's WP8 event was not to announce the new OS's end-user features but to discuss the "plumbing" being developed to enable them. I understand that current handsets not getting WP8 in all its glory is a bummer, but Microsoft made the decision they felt they had to for the greater good -- to give the forthcoming OS the wings it will need to really fly. The new kernel, aligned with W8 and W8 RT, will bring a real synergy to the table that the Windows platform -- nor any other -- has ever had. It will mean more cross-platform apps and games of higher-quality, a far more seamless user experience, and the ecosystem growth it will need to properly compete with Google and Apple over the next 10 to 20 years.

    As far as the new Start screen is concerned, I love it. I thought the negative space to the right of the home screen was cute and hip for a while, but I soon grew to feel robbed of my screen's God-given real estate. I also like the new small tiles. It's an option I didn't have before, and it's not like they're being forced upon me, so I can keep things exactly as is should I choose to do so. Chances are, there're a number of yet-to-be-seen new goodies in store (such as the ability to read a preview of a text's contents in a "double-wide" Messaging tile). Personally, I hope they add some type of "folders" functionality, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

    Everyone seemed to be expecting Skype to be "integrated" with WP8. Well, they didn't, so now everyone is poo-poo'ing them for it. The truth is, they did one better by integrating VoIP, which means that any app developer (Skype, Tango, Google or otherwise) can now "plug in" and take advantage. Sure, the carriers probably won't be thrilled, but the idea is -- again -- that the WP8 development team have been busy working toward ENABLING the new platform, which I personally think is a super, super smart move.

    Adopting Nokia's NAVTEQ mapping tech into WP8 Maps? Awesome! Bing maps aren't all that great, and Nokia's Drive is, in certain ways, a more sophisticated and more comprehensive system. Hopefully, by combining they two (Bing Maps meets Nokia data), WP8 Maps will offer a very compelling set of mapping tools, complete with off-line maps and navigation, turn-by-turn directions, traffic, transit, and more. Further, giving developers full access to the new mapping system will be key to achieving a more integrated experience.

    I'm excited. Though I doubt they will, given their alignment with Nokia, I'd love to see them announce a Surface for Windows Phone 8! If my software's gonna' match, why shouldn't my hardware, also? *pant pant pant* :)
    Last edited by sp3ci4lk; 06-20-2012 at 09:04 PM.
    06-20-2012 08:54 PM
  2. cckgz4's Avatar
    They're not trying to hear it, tbh
    06-20-2012 09:10 PM
  3. jfa1's Avatar
    Some peoplle are just like that the glass is half empty instead of half full!
    06-20-2012 09:29 PM
  4. eric12341's Avatar
    Correction: Skype is integrated in WP8 as will other VoIP services if the dev wishes,otherwise great post. The negative threads are still coming tho.
    06-20-2012 09:43 PM
  5. ninjaap's Avatar
    It doesn't even matter anymore. When many of us here on the boards tried to convince others to just accept the fact that you may not get WP8 with current devices, they just ignored the warning and wah wah wah for months.

    I said it a couple months ago, I'll say it again: the same people whining now about not getting WP8 will be the same people whining just as loud or louder when they realize they won't get WP9, 2 years from now.
    cckgz4 and vp710 like this.
    06-20-2012 09:44 PM
  6. mmmatthew's Avatar
    The only thing I am upset about is if 7.8 doesn't get the VOIP integration. The fact is that this is solely software. I completely understand giving WP8 the freedom to do whatever and not tie it down to backwards compatibility. However, you could still develop for both! If you look at Windows 8, they've got two different versions of the OS. ARM is the future for Windows tablets, but they're not gonna leave x86 in the dark either.
    06-20-2012 10:26 PM
  7. sp3ci4lk's Avatar
    Correction: Skype is integrated in WP8 as will other VoIP services if the dev wishes,otherwise great post. The negative threads are still coming tho.
    Actually, it's not...

    "There's been discussion about native Skype integration," says Sullivan. "That's not really how I'd characterize this." Microsoft is building in the APIs and infrastructure to support generalized VoIP applications in Windows Phone 8, including Skype and others. "Skype largely will just be an application that you'll be able to download that will take advantage of the VoIP integration that we think will be industry leading," explains Sullivan. The integration means VoIP applications will become a full first-class app on Windows Phone 8 handsets, allowing them to integrate into the phone dialer, People Hub, and more.

    Windows Phone 8 in detail: new Start Screen, multi-core support, VoIP integration, and NFC | The Verge

    So it seems that Skype, as an app, isn't integrated into the OS, per say, but VoIP is.
    06-20-2012 10:52 PM
  8. sentimentGX4's Avatar
    Here are my issues with WP8:

    1) WP8 will feel like a completely different OS from WP 7.5.
    2) Legacy devices will not be upgraded
    3) WP8 looks NOTHING like Windows 8.

    WP8 throws simplicity out the door. I don't mind that it's complicated, but it irks me that I suddenly feel like I'll be using a completely different OS.

    I'm actually surprised how they changed the appearance of Windows Phone when they were counting on consumers associating Windows Phone with actual Windows after using Windows 8.

    I think (3) is a huge mistake and it will cause Microsoft tons of advertising dollars to convince/inform consumers WP8 is Windows when with WP7.5 the association was so evident. It is also a detriment to the success of WP.
    06-20-2012 11:40 PM
  9. InfectedPhreak's Avatar
    WP8 throws simplicity out the door. I don't mind that it's complicated, but it irks me that I suddenly feel like I'll be using a completely different OS..
    How would it feel like using a completely different OS? Just because the Start Screen is a bit more flexible and more customizable with more screen used up.... the bottom line it's still the same OS, guarantee everything other then the start screen is going to be the same. Also it's not like you have to use the very small tiles, you can use the normal sized tiles or the double wide tiles and still feel like you're staying classy.

    Maybe that's just my perspective, I want to know how and why it would feel like a different OS to you.
    06-20-2012 11:58 PM
  10. sp3ci4lk's Avatar
    Here are my issues with WP8:

    1) WP8 will feel like a completely different OS from WP 7.5.
    2) Legacy devices will not be upgraded
    3) WP8 looks NOTHING like Windows 8.

    WP8 throws simplicity out the door. I don't mind that it's complicated, but it irks me that I suddenly feel like I'll be using a completely different OS.

    I'm actually surprised how they changed the appearance of Windows Phone when they were counting on consumers associating Windows Phone with actual Windows after using Windows 8.

    I think (3) is a huge mistake and it will cause Microsoft tons of advertising dollars to convince/inform consumers WP8 is Windows when with WP7.5 the association was so evident. It is also a detriment to the success of WP.
    Can you explain how WP8 looks nothing like Windows 8? To me, they look very much alike...various-sized live tiles against a plain background. That's straight-up Metro UI. Now, if you said that iOS looks nothing like OS X, I could see that, but I don't understand where you're coming from...
    06-21-2012 12:00 AM
  11. dkp23's Avatar
    Here are my issues with WP8:

    1) WP8 will feel like a completely different OS from WP 7.5.
    2) Legacy devices will not be upgraded
    3) WP8 looks NOTHING like Windows 8.

    WP8 throws simplicity out the door. I don't mind that it's complicated, but it irks me that I suddenly feel like I'll be using a completely different OS.

    I'm actually surprised how they changed the appearance of Windows Phone when they were counting on consumers associating Windows Phone with actual Windows after using Windows 8.

    I think (3) is a huge mistake and it will cause Microsoft tons of advertising dollars to convince/inform consumers WP8 is Windows when with WP7.5 the association was so evident. It is also a detriment to the success of WP.
    helpful hint. Just use medium size tiles and have ur photo tile and calendar tiles be large tiles. You will essentially emulate wp7.5. Complexity goes out the door.
    vp710 likes this.
    06-21-2012 01:03 AM
  12. sentimentGX4's Avatar
    How would it feel like using a completely different OS? Just because the Start Screen is a bit more flexible and more customizable with more screen used up.... the bottom line it's still the same OS, guarantee everything other then the start screen is going to be the same.
    The START screen is 90% of the OS for me. What else about Windows Phone (or iOS and Android) are distinctive aside from the "home" screens? Yes, there might be less buttons/options on Windows Phone menus and it might have a peculiar love affair with scroll down menus; but that's it. The homescreen is the face of the OS.

    You can tell me the two OSes are different and they might be different under the hood; but, the GUI aspects are mostly homogeneous.

    Can you explain how WP8 looks nothing like Windows 8? To me, they look very much alike...various-sized live tiles against a plain background. That's straight-up Metro UI.
    A lot of it has to do with the sizing and the clustering of the tiles. The sizing of the tiles got a lot smaller and the grid/organization of the tile has largely changed.

    Let's get the record straight. "Tiles" and grids will never be distinctive because they are just squares and grids, some of the most design aspects around. What made Metro distinctive was that it used rigid dimensioned, oversized "tiles" on a small grid. The grid was a double column with only 4 rows visible at a time. On PCs, this number can vary; but, it's still generally 3 to 5 rows. The number of columns could vary; but, this made sense due to the wider shape of PCs displays and users had been accustomed to this horizontal continuity through Metro wallpapers.

    With WP8, the number of squares in the cluster completely changed. The smaller squares means there will be over 16 rows and 4 columns visible at a time. This change is extremely noticeable since there will be more tiles visible on the phone than the PC. Tile size and shape variation has changed as well now that the number of different shapes has increased from 2 to 4. This is double the shape flexibility. The entire grid becomes more pronounced with more black lines breaking continuity contrasting with the massive shapes/pictures of WP7 and Windows 8.

    WP8 uses a completely different grid than WP7.5 and Windows 8 and this is makes it very evident that WP8 is not Windows 8. WP7, in contrast, looks extremely similar to Windows 8 in terms of the grid.

    helpful hint. Just use medium size tiles and have ur photo tile and calendar tiles be large tiles. You will essentially emulate wp7.5. Complexity goes out the door.
    Part of the issue is just the option to resize tiles will confuse less advanced users. Organizing the tiles, I imagine, will be a nightmare regardless of what size you intend to make them. Now I have to specify tile size each time I organize them!

    Furthermore, the widget emphasis is greatly decreased now that app developers can use smaller tiles and are not forced to try to make meaningful use of huge screen real estate. This will motivate more users to use small tiles and the mix of large and small tiles does not go over well with simplicity.
    Last edited by Sentimentgx4; 06-21-2012 at 01:47 AM.
    06-21-2012 01:32 AM
  13. blehblehbleh's Avatar
    ^Wow buddy, the new tile sizing isn't that big of a problem unless you make it. By the sound of what you're saying that sounds like what you're doing. Just because it can be customized doesn't mean you have to customize them, and no doubt the default tile size will be the one you know already.

    As for your last bit, how does that even make sense? How the developer wants to use the live tile is limited only by her own imagination and design. You're argument could be made now and in the case with double sided tiles. If a developer doesn't want to use it, it's their loss and their app won't be as great as the ones that do.
    06-21-2012 05:20 AM
  14. doublebullout's Avatar
    Furthermore, the widget emphasis is greatly decreased now that app developers can use smaller tiles and are not forced to try to make meaningful use of huge screen real estate. This will motivate more users to use small tiles and the mix of large and small tiles does not go over well with simplicity.
    Your complaint is largely a matter of taste, so I won't try to convince you otherwise. FWIW, I am more excited about the start screen changes coming in 7.8 than anything I saw in the iOS6 announcement at WWDC.

    But your complaint about tile size and developer effort is simply untrue. According to the explanation and demoes we got yesterday, the new tile sizes are automatically generated by the OS. The developer doesn't have to do anything to enable the smaller size, and the standard medium and large sizes will still be available anyway. Your fears that developers will just use the small size out of laziness are completely unfounded.
    06-21-2012 06:40 AM
  15. johnmcd348's Avatar
    I'm looking at this all as someone who is fairly new to WP, but came over from WM and was a long time user since the days of CE. I don't look at the lack of upgrade to WP8 different than the lack of upgrade from WM6.5-7. Will MS continue to introduce an OS every couple of years that's not upgradable with the earlier hardware? I thought the whole reason of moving away from the CE versions and creating this whole new WP OS was to give more control to the creator(MS) to upgrade and continue to improve/advance smartphone technology. I first pictured it similar to the way we upgrade our PC's at home. When Windows comes out with a new OS, we don't always have to buy a new computer. We may need to upgrade a few items, but, even that is only on a very outdated computer hardware wise.

    I felt a bit burned by MS when they announced they were moving away from WM and creating WP. Being a loyal user since the days of PDA's, before smartphones, and building my software library around my needs, only to be told they would not be supported any longer. I had literally $100's of software I used daily in my job that I relied upon and to this day, has really not had much in the way of replacement apps found on WP. I have found some work arounds, others, I have had to do without completely or rely on a desktop to make up the difference. Thankfully, we have gone to computerized charting at the hospital so I am always in front of an internet capable computer.

    Now, with the introduction of tablets, they now have 2 separate OS's for 2 separate versions of the same thing. This isn't like buying the Desktop OS and having to choose between Basic, Premiere, Home, Super-Ultimate Deluxe versions and 32-64 bit. Those all run the same programs no matter what. You buy a program and it will run on any Win7 computer. Depending on what you buy and when you buy it, you may have to buy 3 separate programs in order to truly be mobile. 1 for work at home, 1 for your tablet(RT) and 1 for your Phone(WP8).

    I'll continue using Windows. I really have no major problem with that. I just don't rely wholly on it any longer like I had for years prior.
    cckgz4 likes this.
    06-21-2012 01:33 PM
  16. eric12341's Avatar
    Wow lighten up people WP8 is shaping up to be everything we wanted and more but we're complaining about it?
    06-21-2012 02:20 PM
  17. selfcreation's Avatar
    Some peoplle are just like that the glass is half empty instead of half full!
    my glass is always 1/4 empty... but im HAPPY! cant wait for the new UI!!!!

    :D:D:D

    its also funny how we still know next to NOTHING about WP8.. they told us about 8 features for god sake (6 of witch we already knew a bout ) ... and people still back flip off cliffs.
    eric12341 likes this.
    06-21-2012 02:37 PM
  18. 4ny0n3's Avatar
    I'm actually looking forward to the 7.8 update. I'm not disappointed per se. However, I do understand how others feel. I just got a Lumia 800 with a 18 month contract and my phone is pretty much "legacy" already. That's just one of the so many times mentioned reasons.

    My main concern is the lack of native apps for WP7. I'm an avid Twitter user and I like my twitter apps to be as "official" as possible. We all know that the official Twitter app for WP7 is the most incomplete out of all the other official versions. Now, what if Twitter releases a complete and great Twitter App for Windows 8 and they don't release it for Windows Phone 7.8 just because the latter doesn't support native apps and porting is a pain in the ***?

    My example with the Twitter app is just one of the many possible situations that will/may arise with the release of Windows Phone 8.

    AFAIK Microsoft hasn't said anything concrete that will make us WP7 users rest assured that we won't face the possibility of not enjoying better versions of apps we already have and know just because these versions will be WP8 only.
    06-21-2012 02:50 PM
  19. cp2_4eva's Avatar
    No matter what big companies do to make their devices or products better, there is always a buzzkillington out there to T_T about something. They do it to themselves. Let them bicker and miss out on all the good things. The rest of the buyers can rejoice when they finally have something with comparable hardware. The glass is 3/4 full here. My 1/4 is how I'm bummed about not getting the WP8 on my Lumia 900.

    Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express
    eric12341 likes this.
    06-21-2012 03:06 PM
  20. vp710's Avatar
    The 1/2 part of my glass is I'm going to have to wait to get a Surface and a WP8 phone.
    06-21-2012 03:21 PM
  21. ngc891's Avatar
    i dont even have a glass, i'm licking it off the kitchen worktops.
    06-21-2012 04:26 PM
  22. dkp23's Avatar
    The START screen is 90% of the OS for me. What else about Windows Phone (or iOS and Android) are distinctive aside from the "home" screens? Yes, there might be less buttons/options on Windows Phone menus and it might have a peculiar love affair with scroll down menus; but that's it. The homescreen is the face of the OS.

    You can tell me the two OSes are different and they might be different under the hood; but, the GUI aspects are mostly homogeneous.

    A lot of it has to do with the sizing and the clustering of the tiles. The sizing of the tiles got a lot smaller and the grid/organization of the tile has largely changed.

    Let's get the record straight. "Tiles" and grids will never be distinctive because they are just squares and grids, some of the most design aspects around. What made Metro distinctive was that it used rigid dimensioned, oversized "tiles" on a small grid. The grid was a double column with only 4 rows visible at a time. On PCs, this number can vary; but, it's still generally 3 to 5 rows. The number of columns could vary; but, this made sense due to the wider shape of PCs displays and users had been accustomed to this horizontal continuity through Metro wallpapers.

    With WP8, the number of squares in the cluster completely changed. The smaller squares means there will be over 16 rows and 4 columns visible at a time. This change is extremely noticeable since there will be more tiles visible on the phone than the PC. Tile size and shape variation has changed as well now that the number of different shapes has increased from 2 to 4. This is double the shape flexibility. The entire grid becomes more pronounced with more black lines breaking continuity contrasting with the massive shapes/pictures of WP7 and Windows 8.

    WP8 uses a completely different grid than WP7.5 and Windows 8 and this is makes it very evident that WP8 is not Windows 8. WP7, in contrast, looks extremely similar to Windows 8 in terms of the grid.

    Part of the issue is just the option to resize tiles will confuse less advanced users. Organizing the tiles, I imagine, will be a nightmare regardless of what size you intend to make them. Now I have to specify tile size each time I organize them!

    Furthermore, the widget emphasis is greatly decreased now that app developers can use smaller tiles and are not forced to try to make meaningful use of huge screen real estate. This will motivate more users to use small tiles and the mix of large and small tiles does not go over well with simplicity.
    Unless you are four years old, i dont see how a user can be confused on how to resize tiles or move them. Once they do it once, they will know how to do it. Press and hold the tile, press the bottom right to resize. Press hold down the tile, move them as you please, you dont have to resize a tile if you do it once unless you want to change it.

    iPhone icons, you move them by pressing hold and dragging, same thing goes with wp7 now and will for wp8. Only difference is changing the size, if you change the size of your messaging tile to large, you cant move all you want all over the place with one hand eye closed and drinking a coca cola and it will remain the same size.
    06-21-2012 05:09 PM
  23. alpinestars1z's Avatar

    Part of the issue is just the option to resize tiles will confuse less advanced users. Organizing the tiles, I imagine, will be a nightmare regardless of what size you intend to make them. Now I have to specify tile size each time I organize them!
    Wait, what? First people ask for more customization, and Android users make fun of us for Windows Phone's lack of customization, and now that we have it, people are complaining?
    06-21-2012 09:23 PM
  24. cckgz4's Avatar
    If I want a new wp8 device, I'll grab the low end HTC newly announced one.
    06-21-2012 10:25 PM
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD