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09-20-2012 10:47 AM
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  1. Garrett92C's Avatar
    Why is Microsoft pushing Nokia out of the spotlight and replacing them with HTC?

    "HTC is unveiling its flagship Windows Phone 8 handset today, the Windows Phone 8X. The branding might sound Microsoft-like, but there's a good reason for that the two companies have joined forces on a marketing campaign that will make HTC the face of Windows Phone 8." -source

    "In fact, Microsoft's influence on these new devices is so strong, it literally named them for HTC. Putting "Windows Phone" right in the name of the smartphones sends a clear message to consumers: if you want a Microsoft smartphone, this is where you go. Microsoft has committed to a heavy promotion of HTC's new devices, and it's even gone so far as to call them the "Signature of the Windows Phone 8 brand."" -source


    The Verge just posted a new article going into more detail. It's an interesting read. I always expected Microsoft to favor Nokia since they are all-in with WP8. I guess not?
    09-19-2012 06:41 PM
  2. paulishuku's Avatar
    I think it all boils down to the fact that Microsoft wants WP8 to be a huge success. They want Nokia and HTC to both succeed. Im sure Ballmer would have went to Samsung's press release too if the whole Apple vs Samsung lawsuit wasn't a media spectacle at the time.

    I mean MS worked closely with both companies developing a perfect Windows Phone 8, and I think both phones will do exceptionally well. And I bet that's how Microsoft see's it as well.
    Garrett92C and cedarlog like this.
    09-19-2012 06:49 PM
  3. brmiller1976's Avatar
    Windows on the desktop, and MS-DOS before that, didn't go big by focusing on "just one premiere partner." It went big when lots of hardware OEMs played to win.

    Frankly, I think Nokia's expectation of super-favorable treatment has made them a bit lazy. HTC is hungrier and that hunger has translated into a much more effective launch for their products.
    09-19-2012 07:29 PM
  4. paulishuku's Avatar
    Windows on the desktop, and MS-DOS before that, didn't go big by focusing on "just one premiere partner." It went big when lots of hardware OEMs played to win.

    Frankly, I think Nokia's expectation of super-favorable treatment has made them a bit lazy. HTC is hungrier and that hunger has translated into a much more effective launch for their products.

    I definitely agree. Although not sure what you mean by Nokia being lazy? They have innovated with design for sure. If you're referring to release dates and carriers, I think there's some behind the scenes work being done on carriers, plans, dates, etc and nothing can officially be said yet about it.
    09-19-2012 07:37 PM
  5. brmiller1976's Avatar
    Nokia's engineers aren't lazy, but their marketing, product planning and distribution people seem to be.

    HTC's event was more professional, gave more details about pricing and availability, and even talked about an early November ship date.

    Nokia's stuck in "look at our cool stuff" mode. Their head of marketing keeps tweeting "#switchtolumia." How? You can't buy one. You can't even say for sure if your carrier will support the model you want, or how much it will cost, or when you can buy it.
    09-19-2012 07:40 PM
  6. Garrett92C's Avatar
    I definitely agree. Although not sure what you mean by Nokia being lazy? They have innovated with design for sure. If you're referring to release dates and carriers, I think there's some behind the scenes work being done on carriers, plans, dates, etc and nothing can officially be said yet about it.
    Yea, Nokia put together quite a nice device. HTC did as well. I'm really happy that WP finally has some good hardware to run on. :)
    cedarlog and alpinestars1z like this.
    09-19-2012 07:42 PM
  7. BotanicalStig's Avatar
    Frankly, I think Nokia's expectation of super-favorable treatment has made them a bit lazy. HTC is hungrier and that hunger has translated into a much more effective launch for their products.
    I disagree. When Nokia announced the 920, they gave us a handful of things no smartphone has ever had before- hardware image stabilization, a multi-touch display that can work with gloves, etc. The Nokia event felt like an old school apple announcement. We all expected a nice new phone, but they threw features at us that no smartphone has ever had before it.

    HTC, on the other hand, gave us two beautiful phones. They run WP8, have a normal smartphone camera, a normal smartphone screen, etc. Nothing was new. The products that were announced today were great, and I may get one over the new lumia, but there was zero innovation. How can you say Nokia is lazy, and that HTC is hungrier?
    cedarlog likes this.
    09-19-2012 07:47 PM
  8. independentvolume's Avatar
    Agreed. I also think Microsoft isn't too happy about the 920 most likely being an exclusive device. If I were Microsoft I would want my signature phone widely accessible. Makes that advertising dollar stretch a lot farther.
    09-19-2012 07:48 PM
  9. paulishuku's Avatar
    Nokia's engineers aren't lazy, but their marketing, product planning and distribution people seem to be.

    HTC's event was more professional, gave more details about pricing and availability, and even talked about an early November ship date.

    Nokia's stuck in "look at our cool stuff" mode. Their head of marketing keeps tweeting "#switchtolumia." How? You can't buy one. You can't even say for sure if your carrier will support the model you want, or how much it will cost, or when you can buy it.
    I understand what you're saying. I can imagine its very frustrating for someone who's on, say, Verizon waiting to know if they'll even be able to buy the 920. And why get excited for a phone you may not even be able to buy? But what Nokia is doing is just trying to stay in peoples newsfeeds. I mean, to be honest with all these recent launch events (Samsung, Nokia, Apple, and now HTC) I have completely forgotten about Samsung's ATIV. Samsung is now pretty much only talking about the S3.

    Nokia, I'm almost positive, is trying to secure spots in other carriers at this point. If they weren't they would have surely announced AT&T exclusivity.
    09-19-2012 07:52 PM
  10. brmiller1976's Avatar
    How can you say Nokia is lazy, and that HTC is hungrier?
    HTC has given ship times, carriers and pricing -- none of which is available from Nokia.

    HTC is shipping on every major carrier -- Lumia 920 is "yet another exclusive" (e.g. the easy way out).

    HTC is playing for share and volume with an A-level handset. Nokia is playing for volume with a "meh, good enough" 820 and saving the high-end stuff for a handset that the vast majority of Americans won't be able to purchase due to carrier exclusivity.

    HTC is being ambitious. Nokia is playing it safe.

    I totally agree with IndependentVolume about Microsoft's likely reaction to high-end exclusivity as well. Microsoft wants Windows EVERYWHERE. High-end, kick-***, take names phones on every possible carrier. Easily available, easy to buy, even on prepaid.
    09-19-2012 07:52 PM
  11. Mitlov's Avatar
    If I was Nokia, I would feel incredibly betrayed. Nokia has promoted the **** out of its WP8 products (Nicki Minaj in Times Square anyone?), whereas HTC has let its WP devices play second-fiddle to its Android lineup. Nokia has played a huge role in the aesthetic of modern MS devices. Not only the 8X, but does nobody else remember the Nokia Blue touch cover that was used when the Surface was unveiled?

    It'd be one thing for Microsoft to say "we're going to support HTC with equal enthusiasm as Nokia and any other OEM who shows interest in WP8"...but to place them on a pedistal HIGHER than Nokia? That's plain ol' betrayal.
    cedarlog likes this.
    09-19-2012 08:53 PM
  12. Mitlov's Avatar
    HTC has given ship times, carriers and pricing -- none of which is available from Nokia.

    HTC is shipping on every major carrier -- Lumia 920 is "yet another exclusive" (e.g. the easy way out).

    HTC is playing for share and volume with an A-level handset. Nokia is playing for volume with a "meh, good enough" 820 and saving the high-end stuff for a handset that the vast majority of Americans won't be able to purchase due to carrier exclusivity.

    HTC is being ambitious. Nokia is playing it safe.

    I totally agree with IndependentVolume about Microsoft's likely reaction to high-end exclusivity as well. Microsoft wants Windows EVERYWHERE. High-end, kick-***, take names phones on every possible carrier. Easily available, easy to buy, even on prepaid.
    If HTC had said the 8X would be available on US Cellular and a bunch of other carriers, instead of just three carriers (Verizon, AT&T, T-Mobile), this argument would be a lot more compelling.
    09-19-2012 08:55 PM
  13. a5cent's Avatar
    Good thread guys! A few additions:
    HTC is shipping on every major carrier -- Lumia 920 is "yet another exclusive" (e.g. the easy way out).
    Windows on the desktop, and MS-DOS before that, didn't go big by focusing on "just one premiere partner." It went big when lots of hardware OEMs played to win.
    I don't think Windows and WP can be compared in that way. Both carry the name Windows, but the markets they "play" in are completely different, carrier control and involvement being one example.

    Anyway, the iPhone also started out as an AT&T exclusive. Verizon, scrambling to defend themselves against the iPhone onslaught, ended up massively backing the "Droid" (also an exclusive), which set Android on it's own path to fame. I suspect Nokia is trying to emulate that path to victory.

    Is it the best path to victory? I'm skeptical. I think Nokia is generally very unsure about how best to crack the U.S. market.
    Nokia's engineers aren't lazy, but their marketing, product planning and distribution people seem to be.
    I suspect the departments you mentioned aren't accustomed to playing in the "big leagues". Selling millions of low-cost devices in 2nd world countries won't prepare you for U.S. and European media markets... I suspect those are the bigger issues than laziness.
    HTC is hungrier and that hunger has translated into a much more effective launch for their products.
    Nokia is just as hungry. Both of these companies are underdogs and have a lot riding on the success of their WP devices. Neither is capable of fighting it out with Samsung or Apple in any way (beyond the merits of their products). Neither can survive much longer in their current form without a few successes coming their way.

    Nokia certainly is the larger animal, but both are starving.
    Last edited by a5cent; 09-19-2012 at 09:31 PM.
    09-19-2012 09:09 PM
  14. independentvolume's Avatar
    If HTC had said the 8X would be available on US Cellular and a bunch of other carriers, instead of just three carriers (Verizon, AT&T, T-Mobile), this argument would be a lot more compelling.
    Your joking right? Heck if it was only on at&t and Verizon the argument would make sense. Your more than doubling your potential market then. It's not hard math.
    09-19-2012 09:16 PM
  15. jdevenberg's Avatar
    Nokia blew its announcement. HTC nailed it. People get irritated when there is no price, release, or carrier info. Add the images and video that demoed its OIS were presented in a way that lead people to believe that the 920 had shot them, only to later reveal that they were shot on high end cameras. This leads people to doubt how effective the OIS will be on the phone.

    And you all are right, MS wants a flag ship phone that is widely available. And you do not need to be on regional carriers to be widely available. Verizon alone has more subscribers (104+ million) than carriers 4 (T-Mobile) through 10 (around 65 million) combined. The top two (Verizon and AT&T) have more customers between the two of them then all the other carriers combined by a long shot (nearly 200 million vs. 120 million tops) HTC will have their high end device on the three largest carriers that are going to support windows phone.
    09-19-2012 09:23 PM
  16. pjs37's Avatar
    If I was Nokia, I would feel incredibly betrayed. Nokia has promoted the **** out of its WP8 products (Nicki Minaj in Times Square anyone?), whereas HTC has let its WP devices play second-fiddle to its Android lineup. Nokia has played a huge role in the aesthetic of modern MS devices. Not only the 8X, but does nobody else remember the Nokia Blue touch cover that was used when the Surface was unveiled?

    It'd be one thing for Microsoft to say "we're going to support HTC with equal enthusiasm as Nokia and any other OEM who shows interest in WP8"...but to place them on a pedistal HIGHER than Nokia? That's plain ol' betrayal.
    Except MS has to keep all its OEM partners happy which is a balancing act. I am sure some of HTC/MS stuff today may be the result of HTC not being involved much with the initial WinRT device roll outs. Plus MS can only help so much. Nokia was the company that didn't want to give people any real meaningful information about their phones other than "look they are neat we just can't tell you where, when and how much yet" And HTC addressed the buy back program something both Nokia and MS have failed to do yet.

    I don't see anything MS specifically did to slight Nokia. Same CEO no new features announced through the HTC event that I am aware of, all they let them do is call it a Signature Windows Phone 8 Device.
    09-19-2012 10:11 PM
  17. Winterfang's Avatar
    Google had HTC and Samsung as the face of Android. I don't see why Nokia and HTC can't coexist =).
    09-19-2012 10:38 PM
  18. BotanicalStig's Avatar
    I don't see not announcing a shipping date as blowing an announcement, nor do I find it lazy. Nobody from Nokia has said that the 920 will be an ATT exclusive. HTC did not give a shipping date either, "November-ish" doesn't really count, does it?

    Do you guys need to rewatch the two events? Let me recap for you:

    HTC: Pretty new phone- look how pretty it is, see it? It's pretty right?. Oh and it has an acceptable camera... and beats. It should be available in November. Done in half an hour.

    Nokia: Pretty new phone, feature after feature, explaining the camera, explaining lenses, explaining the screen, explaining AR, a dab of WP8, they explained almost everything. The whole demo took an hour and a half.

    But because they didn't show up with a date, they're lazy, and don't care about the consumer/selling devices. Come on.

    The OIS demo they showed during the event was taken by a 920. It was attached to a rig holding two phones recording the same exact shot. They did a great job demonstrating just how well it worked. The girl on the bike wasn't actually part of the announcement, it was an advertisement. I'm not saying it wasn't a horrible mistake on their part, but the announcement demo was kosher.

    I love the new phones HTC announced today, they're great devices. But to say Nokia is lazy...
    09-19-2012 11:36 PM
  19. a5cent's Avatar
    Google had HTC and Samsung as the face of Android. I don't see why Nokia and HTC can't coexist =).
    That point would only make sense if HTC and Samsung actually were co-existing. As it is now, HTC is dying a slow death, as the scraps left by Samsung aren't enough to sustain it. I'm not sure as to why. My best guess is that the average consumer uses brands (Samsung, HTC, Nokia) and not operating systems (Android, WP, iOS) as their main basis on which to make purchasing decisions. Likely, after attaining a certain market share, a snowball effect kicks in and the brand becomes synonymous with the OS for most.

    If that is true, there might not be room for more than one large manufacturer per OS (in the long run). In addition to mind-share, there are also economies of scale to worry about, where currently Apple and Samsung are the only two on a level playing field.

    All speculation on my part though...
    09-19-2012 11:47 PM
  20. mmacleodbrown's Avatar
    Nokia blew its announcement. HTC nailed it. People get irritated when there is no price, release, or carrier info.
    How did they blow it, they only blew it if all the people who were getting a 920 are now going for a 8X. Im still likely to get a 920 so HTC have 'blown it' as they have released their new range and not managed to persuade me to buy one
    09-19-2012 11:54 PM
  21. cckgz4's Avatar
    I think the only reason why Microsoft is doing that is because all three carriers will have the flagship 8x
    09-20-2012 02:40 AM
  22. cedarlog's Avatar
    HTC just copied the nokia in terms of apperance, it is really a big funny, i do hope Nokia can beat up HTC, and set HTC into court.

    i don't want to see windows phone makers fight each other in court Microsoft will Never allow it
    in my eyes the design philosophy of Nokia taken from windows phone 8 design philosophy
    HTC is trying to bring windows phone 8 philosophy to the hardware level
    yes Nokia done that first and HTC followed

    if this philosophy will bring more users then let it be all i care about more users
    i want to see Nokia best selling windows phone 8 maker but i also want to see HTC as second best selling windows phone 8 maker
    Last edited by torchxit; 09-20-2012 at 06:04 AM.
    09-20-2012 05:30 AM
  23. cgk's Avatar
    Google had HTC and Samsung as the face of Android. I don't see why Nokia and HTC can't coexist =).
    They don't really co-exist in any meaningful sense, Samsung is absolutely destroying HTC (even though it is arguable that the One X was better in many ways that the GS3) in the android sphere - so I would think that HTC are hoping that WP8 takes off and they can destroy Nokia and being the biggest player in that area.


    Anyway - that microsoft is playing one off against the other is perfectly normal for Microsoft because that is how the company operates internally (right down to the individual employee level) and it represents a aspect of their organisational culture.


    Anyway as The Verge points out they both have the same problem -

    Two years on, no matter how colorful, Windows Phone has yet to prove that it can turn any of these companies a profit.
    Winterfang likes this.
    09-20-2012 05:44 AM
  24. Mitlov's Avatar
    everywhere i look everyone keeps saying HTC copied Nokia. If someone could tell me how HTC came up with the 8x and 8s in 2 weeks i would like to know. Please remember that the WP's Nokia gave us were remakes of the N9 so not a new design at all.
    The 920's aesthetic came from the 900, which came from the N9. The brightly-colored polycarbonate slab has been Nokia's signature look for a long time. It's not like the 920 was the first to have that look. That's the point...this sort of brightly-colored unibody slab has been a Nokia signature aesthetic for a while. It's not like we first saw it two weeks ago.

    As for the 8S, the contrasting-color chin was not taken from any Nokia design, but instead from Sony's signature aesthetic for the past year or so:





    I'm not saying the phones aren't good-quality hardware. But the aesthetic is derivative. It's following, not leading. Take my motorcycle, a 2002 Suzuki SV650. Brilliant piece of machinery. Best $6000 machine on the market at the time I bought it. But I don't kid myself...the aesthetic is shamelessly "inspired" by the Ducati Monster.
    09-20-2012 09:39 AM
  25. Heron_Kusanagi's Avatar
    I will say that HTC's design language were inspired by Nokia's back when the N9 was first introduced.

    Still, whatever HTC does, the real deal comes from having the phone consumers wants most. Whether be it the Nokia L920 or the HTC 8X, voting with the wallet is key. Nothing else matters. That's why investors love Apple despite an underwhelming iPhone 5. They can sell it because it is Apple. That's how insane it gets for now.
    09-20-2012 09:51 AM
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