Paul Thurott: Nokia is circling the drain. Surface Phone only hope.

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eortizr

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The problem here is not the 'Hardware' the Lumia 920 is a top notch device 'Hardware wise', the problem is the lack of apps and developer's support to WP8, MS is not giving any decent incentive to gain developers and that is what will eventually kill WP8, WP7 after almost 2 years in the market still lacking a lot of APPS. So what's make you think it will be any different with WP8? and with Google looking to not develop for WP8, it will be very difficult. It's sad cuz I really liked the 920 and the WP8 OS by it self, but the lack of apps is just awful. I hate apple and currently I own an iPhone 5 just because if I need an App for something I can get it.
 

irvin792

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Have you used other phones? WP kb isn't worst but definitely not the best ive used. As for stability, my wifes Lumia 920 reboot randomly every few days I tried reflashing but it still does the random reboots after portico update. I can say her Galaxy S3 stock never experienced this...

my Nokia has never randomly rebooted. And I have a friend with a GS3 that he has to reboot often and lags at times, he hates it . Tech will always have hiccups and different people will experience different things, that is just the nature of the beast.

But honestly you cannot argue the fact that it took android "project butter" and massive hardware to even get close to the fluidity of wp7 on antiquated hardware.

And yes I have used other phones lol. I wouldn't be so naive to make a statement if I had no experience in what the statement was about. Everyone will like different things, I find the WP keyboard to be the most accurate and easy to type on virtual keyboard that I have used. That goes without saying that I obviously have not used all keyboards on all phones. Its just my opinion, not law by any means :)
 

brmiller1976

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Nokia completely botched the launch of the 820 and 920, but part of that was Microsoft's fault in delaying WP8 and the WP8 SDK.

I do agree with the premise that relying entirely on Nokia to push the ecosystem forward isn't a good idea. There need to be multiple options. Fortunately, HTC has stepped up to the plate, but that's also not enough -- Samsung needs to get serious and there needs to be a wide range of WP options.

Let's face it -- the 920 is a specialty phone for people who don't mind exchanging weight and thickness for a OIS camera and lower contract price.

It's not really a "mainstream" phone.
 

brmiller1976

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Nokia is circling the drain and rim is that little bit of gunk just holding on for dear life.

Sorry to be Donald Downer here, but RIM is doing rather well, both compared to Nokia and compared to expectations. It just announced a quarterly profit on the continued strength of BlackBerry 7 device sales this past quarter, and expects to post a small loss this quarter due to ramp-up costs.

It generated almost a billion dollars in cash in the quarter, and has no debt.

If BlackBerry 10 is even a modest success, that will be enough to catapult RIM back to sustained profitability AND maintain third place in the global market. Plus, technically, BB 10 looks amazing. And, unlike WP8, it will be supported by every major carrier in the US and worldwide.

I wouldn't count RIM out.
 

thyttel

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^^ Google don't mind slashing the prices of the Nexus line as the consumer will make up the difference (and some) once they're caught in the web of privacy data collection.


Sorry to burst your bubble but Google only slahes the price of the nexus line for the US Market and the extreme few markets who can purchase it directly from them. The rest of the world has to pay the same price for the nexus line as any other top phone is priced.
Sent from my RM-821_eu_denmark_251 using Board Express
 

brmiller1976

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Google's aim to gain and maintain plurality or majority share in the US market, where most mobile innovation is happening these days.

The reason that Apple gets "the cool apps" first isn't because of global share, it's because of US share. Since 80% of successful mobile developers are US-based, plurality share for iOS in the USA ensures that the "cool apps" get released for iOS first. Google is aiming to take big losses on hardware sales to flip that dynamic to its advantage.

Unfortunately for Google, Android really, really sucks and delivers an awful user experience (even in "pure JB" form). They're betting that a focus on deep discount pricing plus hardware specs will make up for that, but I'm not yet convinced it will.
 

xFalk

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Paul makes a lot of good points but this is one that I have to disagree with. Although windows phone is doing better, I think we can all agree it CAN do better if Microsoft focuses more. WP getting the top 47/50 apps from other platforms can be celebrated but why not get ALL 50? For that, I blame Microsoft. The entire WP platforms lacks some appeal because of a very few apps that general consumers look for - mainly instagram. On Nokia's end, I think they failed to execute on 2 fronts, one of which I don't think I can blame them for. The first is the name of their phones causes some confusion to general consumers. This reminds me of the galaxy s II story. That phone had so many different version with so many different names. What happened when the gsIII released? They kept the same name for the same phone throughout. Nokia should've taken a page out of samsungs book in this regard with the start of WP8. The second thing, which I don't blame them much for, is the distribution. The Lumia 920 was a hot item for like the entire month of November, but whenever you walked in the store they were sold out. I'm sure many ppl lost patience and just said to themselves "f**k it, it's just a phone, and it doesn't even have instagram" then went on to buy an iPhone or android phone. Not entirely sure if nokias to blame for this.

There's a few other things that bothered me that wasn't nokias fault, but I'm sured it stole some thunder from their phones. When you walked to an att store to play with the Lumia, if you wanted to test the camera, it was virtually impossible. Att puts their security thing right in front of the camera....that has to be one of the stupid ways for you to display a hot item. It just leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

Somebody has an obvious thing for Instagram. And if you want to try the camera out so bad all you would do is ask and they'll unhook the phone for you. Can't balme everything on MS and Nokia.
 

rmichael75

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Because "making an Android phone" has made HTC bundles of money, right?

:|

Frankly, a ton of pple have talked about this.. I would say that If Nokia releases Andriod phone, they will compete with Samsung and not HTC.. HTC is a ok Group. Same as LG.. But Nokia is hardware king. Well once the Lumia line is established, i think Nokia will look into Andriod.. I think MS is not serious or fast enough for taking on Android. WP8 and all its bugs..
 

gibbyhome

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I would disagree with Paul, Nokia is not circling the drain, and if they were, MS should Step up and stop it right away. Because if it wasn't for Nokia, they would have no buddy pushing windows phones. They have done and excellent job at it .. I even think with the 920 and China, now I can see HTC trying to copy some of nokia with the different color phones, and It looks like Samsung will try something with windows phones soon. seeing android reaching as high as they can go at this point, something new like windows phone would be a good start thanks to NOKIA..
 

brmiller1976

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I would say that If Nokia releases Andriod phone, they will compete with Samsung and not HTC.. HTC is a ok Group. Same as LG.. But Nokia is hardware king.

Sorry, but HTC makes by far the best Android phone on the market.

And Nokia's current hardware form factor ala the 920, as an Android device, would sell poorly -- especially if Nokia made it a "carrier exclusive handset."

Nokia's Android volume would be closer to Sony's than to HTC's, let alone Samsung's.
 

brmiller1976

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I would disagree with Paul, Nokia is not circling the drain, and if they were, MS should Step up and stop it right away.

The stock market would utterly destroy Microsoft if it stepped in to bail out a failed Nokia. Look at how the market is hammering Google for Motorola's poor financial performance. It would be the end of the Ballmer CEOship.

Microsoft wants to sell services and devices. If Nokia cannot sell enough Windows Phones to make it, Microsoft will let it fail, and either sell its own Surface phone, or support the other WP OEMs for as long as there's profit in licenses.

They're also working to make Office for Android and iOS, as well as a host of other services. Windows "dominating" matters less today than it did in the past. Sad to say, but it's true.
 

Jazmac

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What Microsoft isn't doing is dictating the terms of the debate as it relates to mobile. Of all the things they do right, and they have done a lot in a very short period of time. But what they have not done or is not doing is steer the mobile community on a course they will want to be on. Not us, but those on the fence on other platforms. I for one cannot believe that with as much clout in the industry as they have could be dictated to by the likes of google. In my opinion, the jury is still out on Windows Phone; IE, there is time. Lots of fits and starts but it is pushing into the mobile space and I'm pleased. However, once there, they will need to focus on creating an "enjoyable" mobile environment. The kind of environment that invites development rather that critics.

The WP software has got to become more powerful doing basic things that those already using mobile are accustomed to. Like setting ringtones, message tones and notification. My pet peeve, finding a decent eBook reader for my Surface & Kindle, Freda a name a couple, are just wrong for the RT. You don't read an eBook like the way they present it. The design language of the RT isn't for everything. Period. Page turns or single pages only. But I digress.

How do you convince an android user to give up on those basic mobile staples to step backward?

I don't care a lot for Thurott's opinion as some of you already know but it Microsoft does have time to right the mobile ship but it has to leave the desktop mindset to those focused on the desktop.
Desktop is not mobile. I don't care how much Balmer is convinced it is or can be.
 

crystal_planet

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The stock market would utterly destroy Microsoft if it stepped in to bail out a failed Nokia. Look at how the market is hammering Google for Motorola's poor financial performance. It would be the end of the Ballmer CEOship.

Microsoft wants to sell services and devices. If Nokia cannot sell enough Windows Phones to make it, Microsoft will let it fail, and either sell its own Surface phone, or support the other WP OEMs for as long as there's profit in licenses.

They're also working to make Office for Android and iOS, as well as a host of other services. Windows "dominating" matters less today than it did in the past. Sad to say, but it's true.
Well, Nokia is doing rather well for a company that was on life support previously. When Windows Phone is mentioned outside of this forum, it is always with the same breath as Nokia. People that know Windows Phone barely exists, talk more about the 920. Not the 8X. Not the Ativ. Like it or not , to the general public, Nokia is Windows Phone 8.

Oh, and before you label me a Nokia shill, I'll have you know my HTC 8S is on order.
 

X0LARIUM

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All this makes me wonder, if Microsoft's biggest strength is also its biggest weakness. Is the boon turning out to be a curse? The very fact that, in spite of all critics agreeing to the fact that WP is far more stable and robust than any other OS out there(wait, there are just two right....) still something is holding WP back. What is that? Is it the security? What keeps a dev away from WP development and makes the same dev make a beeline for iOS and Android.
Sometimes I even wonder if MS(Nokia in particular) should go the Damsung way...mad marketing strategies that company has. (Quick example: I went to McDonald's and there I see a Samsung counter selling, or at least booking a Note II. I mean seriously? In McDonald's? Really?)

As for Nokia circling the drain, it is anybody's guess. They cut so many jobs, they sold their HQ, they over-priced their devices for a platform that has barely taken off. IMHO, all this may just be an indication that it IS true...IMHO.

Sent from my RaZr on MIUI.
 

rmichael75

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The stock market would utterly destroy Microsoft if it stepped in to bail out a failed Nokia. Look at how the market is hammering Google for Motorola's poor financial performance. It would be the end of the Ballmer CEOship.

Microsoft wants to sell services and devices. If Nokia cannot sell enough Windows Phones to make it, Microsoft will let it fail, and either sell its own Surface phone, or support the other WP OEMs for as long as there's profit in licenses.

They're also working to make Office for Android and iOS, as well as a host of other services. Windows "dominating" matters less today than it did in the past. Sad to say, but it's true.

You guys keep saying as if , if MS releases a phone everybody will buy it.. We all know it is not going to happen.. It will be worse than what Nokia is able to do.. If Nokia fails, you can close shop for Windows phone.
 

IainWhite

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Sorry to be Donald Downer here, but RIM is doing rather well, both compared to Nokia and compared to expectations. It just announced a quarterly profit on the continued strength of BlackBerry 7 device sales this past quarter, and expects to post a small loss this quarter due to ramp-up costs.

It generated almost a billion dollars in cash in the quarter, and has no debt.

If BlackBerry 10 is even a modest success, that will be enough to catapult RIM back to sustained profitability AND maintain third place in the global market. Plus, technically, BB 10 looks amazing. And, unlike WP8, it will be supported by every major carrier in the US and worldwide.

I wouldn't count RIM out.

Well Donald, if you read between the lines,things are not quite so good at RIM.
They did make a small profit last Q (9MM I think), but that was largely because of a tax settlement of $160MM...so really they lost a lot of money.
They also lost subscribers for the first time...maybe a one-off but by most is interpreted as the beginning of a trend.
And...they did indeed improve their cash position, however that was just by reducing their inventory levels.....definately not by making money anywhere.
Finally...possibly the worst news (if you are an investor) is they are expecting most BB10 users not to use a BES solution, which means revenue per customer is expected to drop in the future.

I'm not anti-RIM at all...but to say they are generating cash and making a profit is accountant talk - not reality.
 

Michael Alan Goff

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Frankly, a ton of pple have talked about this.. I would say that If Nokia releases Andriod phone, they will compete with Samsung and not HTC.. HTC is a ok Group. Same as LG.. But Nokia is hardware king. Well once the Lumia line is established, i think Nokia will look into Andriod.. I think MS is not serious or fast enough for taking on Android. WP8 and all its bugs..

"WP8 and all it's bugs" as opposed to Android and its bugs?

But I think you missed my point. Making an Android phone doesn't automatically mean you're going to make a mountain of cash. Almost every other phone maker that isn't Samsung are doing "okay" in the market. And Samsung is doing so well because they're Samsung. They make almost every single piece of their phones. Also, it helps that they make a whole lot of phones. I don't just mean numbers, but types as well.
 

Laura Knotek

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Well Donald, if you read between the lines,things are not quite so good at RIM.
They did make a small profit last Q (9MM I think), but that was largely because of a tax settlement of $160MM...so really they lost a lot of money.
They also lost subscribers for the first time...maybe a one-off but by most is interpreted as the beginning of a trend.
And...they did indeed improve their cash position, however that was just by reducing their inventory levels.....definately not by making money anywhere.
Finally...possibly the worst news (if you are an investor) is they are expecting most BB10 users not to use a BES solution, which means revenue per customer is expected to drop in the future.

I'm not anti-RIM at all...but to say they are generating cash and making a profit is accountant talk - not reality.
That is correct wrt the tax write-off, the decline in subscribers, and the change in the service fees. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/21/t...nd-revenue-falls-48.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&
 
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