will live tiles ever update more frequently than every 30 minutes?
- Thread starter NatKingColeslaw
- Start date
Ofcourse, it was a rethorical question. I was saying as how come they can't make the tiles for clock and battery status work like that upper clock?
It never about the options. Having all the options in the world resulted in windows being number one target for viruses(users where lame and clinged to the "option" stuff and refused to make limited accounts, all of them were running rampant with admin privileges that windows was paradise for viruses). Users can't make choice without education and they don't care actually because they are lazy and don't really want security. You must push security by force as history showed(UAC from windows Vista that still a lot of users were disabling the features because the security limited their "option" to get infected).
The new IOS 7 still does not have true multitasking. It's the same hat with different paint on it but as usual the apple did manage to market it as a feature. Android Jelly Bean 4.2.2 lags more than L 1020 (seen it after 1 week of usage by average educated user who installed all the crap in the world).
MS does listen to customers but again they learned from the past that security must be imposed by force(the UAC example not to mention the way users were using windows xp). Seams that people forget that the last batman game on android has permission to kill all other apps and services just to keep the framerate. This should not be allowed on a device you claim to be secure. People forget that android is the only really personal device you carry everywhere with you that needs an antivirus. People forget the security experiment on android when an app disguise as a game stole and bought on amazon without users knowing. People not living in rusia forget about the real theft of money from users on android devices. People forget that apps like instagram are allowed on android to see what app you are using, what apps you are running and how often you run them.
Listening is one thing. Allowing users to suppress the concept of security because they are lazy and gaining a reputation of a bad and insecure product mostly because of users is another thing.
Sorry Chmar, you've made sense and had good points up until now, but now you just talk nonsense sorry.. What viruses on Android? Nevery had them in 3 years. UAC? The thing that asks me if i'm sure i want to minimize the window? C'mon now..
fwaits
New member
Not necessarily. You'll notice that some of your apps don't show up in the background tasks list unless you go to 'advanced'. Those can activate an agent without your ability to control blocking it from there. You MAY be able to go into that app and turn it off if they have an option, but some don't.
Look for percentage of android malware on google or bing or whatever. See how you dismiss the UAC
. Everyone does this. Today viruses are not like 1980 viruses that deleted your files or block your computer from running. And seriously look for that article on the security experiment where an malware in disguise was able to buy in user name from amazon. I know it sounds crazy but is all real and I believe that if you spend 10 minutes looking for it you will find all the info you need. The batman and instagram examples are exactly my point on how legit apps (legit meaning apps by big companies) have more power over your device than they should be allowed. If you are up for the challenge allow me 3 days to make an android app (game or what you like) and allow me to by myself something from amazon. And I will show you how easy it is to abuse of your money. Or just allow me to post on your facebook account that I own you
The agent you mention here that can't be easily blocked are in 3 categories:
1. Background audio agent(usually used as a hack so you won't get option to turn it off)
2. GPS background agent(idem)
3. Resource intensive tasks used only when the device is on power with 90%+ battery to do cloud synchronization
Some great responses so far, thanks. I certainly understand more about things than I did when I first started the thread.
seriously, what are you talking about. We are talking about notifications here. Android lets you control them how you like it, you know it gives me options. iOS 7 lets apps continue to notify and update in real time, I have a dev copy on my iPad. MS sticksyou with crap restricted push notifications. Even the little back door work around don't always work for the devs. Additionally, my response is not a "how I love android" response its just a comparison from my experience. The amount of lag and battery drain is due to the amount of crap you put on your device. My first week with 1020 lagged a bunch cuz I was installing a bunch of to see what was good. Now that I have it the way I want it it runs smooth same for my Android and iOS devices.
BTW, as I type this response and try to make edits my 1020 using the WP Cenral App starts to lag all over the place. Go figure.
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a5cent
New member
I suspect you are misunderstanding ChMar. Push Notifications and Background Agents are entirely different and unrelated concepts.
If everything works as intended, then push notifications arrive as expected within seconds. So if, as you say, we are talking about push notifications, then there is absolutely no value in providing any user configurable options. If you insist, we could invent two options and call them (1) "work as intended" and (2) "act as if broken by delaying", but that is obviously ridiculous.
I'm not saying that MS' push notification system is 100% bug free and always works perfectly. Unfortunately, there are instances where the system doesn't work. However, this has nothing to do with the restrictions that are being discussed in this thread (30 minute delay etc). Push notifications aren't subject to any such restrictions. Local notifications are subject to some restrictions, but that is another issue entirely.
The solution here hasn't got anything to do with providing more options. The solution should be to fix the issues that are preventing notifications from being delivered quickly and reliably. I suspect that in most cases (almost all?) it is the apps that are at fault rather than the OS (WhatsApp is the prime example).
Background Agents do have limitations. However, this isn't an OS limitation per se, but a deliberate design decision that makes it impossible for certain apps (or a combination of certain apps doing arbitrary amounts of background processing) to screw up user's fluid smartphone experience and battery life. MS would say that this is a feature, not a limitation. Carrier support staff would certainly agree, as would I. This is a good thing and should be guaranteed to stay that way. Hence, it also shouldn't be configurable.
Maybe MS needs to rethink when live tiles are updated? Possibly we should be able to update a live tile through some type of tile interaction, without requiring us to launch the app at all? Maybe live tiles should start updating only after the device is unlocked (show a "refreshing" animation on the affected live tiles) and only while the user is on the start screen? Maybe we should be able to shake our smartphone (or use some other gesture), causing it to update all live tiles? I don't know what the best solution is, but there are certainly many possibilities beyond just letting apps do whatever they want whenever they want.
Notifications and Background Agents are both related to the topic of live tile updates. In contrast to that, the ability to interact with live tiles in more ways isn't directly related to live tile updates, but I would find it more important right now. For example, I would appreciate the ability to scroll through my list of appointments directly on the large calendar live tile.
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Dadstar0410
New member
Dude! Put this as a suggestion in the Windows Phone Idea blog (I forget what it's called, but it allows you to post ideas for future updates to Windows Phone)
MikeSo
New member
In all of these discussions, we have to remember this: when designing Windows Phone, Microsoft has put security first, second, third, and fourth. Fifth comes a smooth, lag-free user experience. EVERYTHING else comes a distant sixth.
Was this the correct choice? I don't know, but they probably looked at Apple and Android (and Windows Mobile), and made the bet that what the general consumer public wants more than options and freedom is the ease of use and security that iOS provides, rather than the openness and customization of Android. Now, I would argue that iOS is in a position to use this approach because the benefits outweigh the drawbacks, and I'm not sure WP is. But that's the choice Microsoft made, like it or not.
So when we complain that live tiles can't constantly run code in the background (at least not for every little app there is - as mentioned, there are Microsoft-approved ways of achieving more frequent updating), or that there are no 3rd party browsers or keyboards, we have to accept that this is the price we pay for security and user experience. If we don't want to pay this price, WP is simply not the OS we need - Android is. That doesn't mean that Microsoft won't come up with new implementations of the live tiles that will allow for more functionality, but it does mean that if they do, it will still have to abide by their basic rules, and it won't be just "let apps run as they want in the background".
Was this the correct choice? I don't know, but they probably looked at Apple and Android (and Windows Mobile), and made the bet that what the general consumer public wants more than options and freedom is the ease of use and security that iOS provides, rather than the openness and customization of Android. Now, I would argue that iOS is in a position to use this approach because the benefits outweigh the drawbacks, and I'm not sure WP is. But that's the choice Microsoft made, like it or not.
So when we complain that live tiles can't constantly run code in the background (at least not for every little app there is - as mentioned, there are Microsoft-approved ways of achieving more frequent updating), or that there are no 3rd party browsers or keyboards, we have to accept that this is the price we pay for security and user experience. If we don't want to pay this price, WP is simply not the OS we need - Android is. That doesn't mean that Microsoft won't come up with new implementations of the live tiles that will allow for more functionality, but it does mean that if they do, it will still have to abide by their basic rules, and it won't be just "let apps run as they want in the background".
Lenin17301
New member
I agree that an update every second is silly, but 30 minutes is too much, an app like CNN or Paper Boy should have at maximum a 10-15 minute gap between updates, and Tiles that obtain local data (Calendar, SMS, Battery, etc) should have even less of a gap between updates (5-10 minutes). In fact, lets be honest here, Android sucks b*lls on the reliability front, but the freedom to customize core aspects of the OS is to be commended and even copied to a certain degree, what I'm saying is: if I want to fry my phone's battery and eat away my data plan by having Tiles update themselves every second, I should have that freedom, simple as that.
People, i've had Clock widget, weather widget and one time a battery percentage widget on the home page of my ancient Android (HTC Wildfire), and none had any influence on the battery. It lasted me aproximately 3 days.
So no i won't accept that MS and devs can't make it work like that, all those widgets updated instantly (except weather which was set to one hour refresh), i mean c'mon seriously, i couldn't believe it when i looked through the store that there isn't any big clock tile so i don't have to hurt my eyes looking at that little one in the upper right corner..
And none of those ever gave me any problems by getting stuck in the background or something..
So no i won't accept that MS and devs can't make it work like that, all those widgets updated instantly (except weather which was set to one hour refresh), i mean c'mon seriously, i couldn't believe it when i looked through the store that there isn't any big clock tile so i don't have to hurt my eyes looking at that little one in the upper right corner..
And none of those ever gave me any problems by getting stuck in the background or something..
a5cent
New member
You belong to a large majority proclaiming consumers should have the right to fry their phone if they so desire. Simultaneously, there also exists a large majority of consumers that will complain, whine and curse at manufacturers and software developers for delivering an OS that isn't 100% deterministic in its behaviour, intuitive and lag free. This is inconsistent and logically flawed behaviour! I'm not saying that you personally are inconsistent, but as a whole, consumers are incredibly so. The saying "with great power comes great responsibility" also applies to computing devices. The thing is, 95% of the population simply doesn't want that responsibility.
It is simply impossible to have a device that is extremely flexible while also being fool proof. As a result, MS, Apple and Google must decide where their product should lie on the flexibility / reliability+simplicity spectrum. As it is now, Android is on one side, while iOS and WP are on the other.
I personally do not want a computer in my pocket. I want a 100% reliable device. That is why I would prefer iOS and WP over Android. I'm willing to spend some time maintaining my PC hardware, but I'm not willing to fiddle around with my phone. It just has to work. I do not think WP is there yet. It's still too immature. But it is getting there.
You are missing the point. Obviously, it is possible to provide an API on WP that allows for a continually running and live tile updating clock (without killing the battery). The point is that when you make such an API available to everyone, then it becomes usable by any app, not just clocks. That doesn't mean any app using that API will kill your battery, but it does introduce the possibility for apps to do so. The point is that people using WP shouldn't have to worry about such possibilities. At least that is the stated goal.
Look for percentage of android malware on google or bing or whatever. See how you dismiss the UAC
If you are up for the challenge allow me 3 days to make an android app (game or what you like) and allow me to by myself something from amazon. And I will show you how easy it is to abuse of your money. Or just allow me to post on your facebook account that I own you
Don't be silly, you only get Android viruses by pirating applications.
Google has done a great job at cleaning up the play store and has some strong checks in place to prevent malware.
The point is i've had 3 extreme drainages in like 40 days with that bulletproof restriction.. Before someone else say it's a hardware issue, just don't, look closely on this forum, or the web..
This is popular belief that you get viruses by pirating apps
. It's not so. Google cleaning process and the checks are based on feedback from security companies and the users reporting apps. It's not security it's like a wall with most wanted criminals that already committed crimes not a system that tries to prevent the criminals.I can describe to you all how easy is to abuse of your data and steal your money. It's simple and efficient but it's not the topic here.
The way notifications works now I consider to be a good compromise. Push notifications are small packets of data that do not require multiple http connections or transferring http headers needlessly. In practice I can say now that I'm content(not happy obviously as I consider there are still some points where the system can benefit from adjustments) of how push notifications system works. I get real-time push notifications in whatsapp (most of the time it has some hit and misses) and IM+ works excellent by using those notifications.
As for CNN updating the live tiles on a 10-15 minutes as I stated it's completely possible. They only need to take advantage of push notifications and not the background agent and they can have live tile updates as frequent as they wish.
a5cent make some very good points about where the system can be improved. But I don't see how this will work. Allowing apps to update fast when screen is turned on will mean that all apps will abuse this so it's no better than unrestricted background access. But I'm sure something suitable will come around those lines.
About the abuse the apps do because they can I can tell you that in my country(Balkans) I cannot sell a single app to customers until I make the point that they can steal the user contacts and use them for spam. After I make this point they are all thrilled. The concept of communicating with users from the app does not matter for them their business methods are around 1990 using email spam. All the apps I made for companies in my country are actually disguised malware (it's not like I'm proud or anything but this is the world I live in). They are also thrilled if you let them spam users with emails and push notifications when the users are passing in front of the competition establishments or their establishment with coupons and other advertisement. Also a spam machine and a battery drain. Do users know they are actually installing a malware? Nope. And I believe they don't care either.
I know many stuff said here deviate from the topic of the live tile notifications. But the issue is about security and conserving the resources of the phone. And I do hope the system remains with those restrictions to prevent abuse. Because there will always be abuse and not from hackers only.
It's not bullet proof. It's better than nothing. And it is not mostly OS fault but apps fault. If a server used by some apps goes down you get increased usage of data and so increased battery drain. When you have intermittent data connection you also experience the same increased drain. 3g data usage is more taxing on the battery than Wi-Fi in practice so in an area with fluctuating signal you will get additional connection to the 3g towers and increase battery drain. Now imagine what will happened if the same hardware was not having an OS with some restrictions.
Some manufacturers are at fault here. HTC 8x uses a 1800 mah battery. This is so low for a phone made as a high end phone. In contrast the Lumia 720 has a 2000mah battery for a middle range phone with cheaper CPU and smaller screen resolution. I can't beat 1 day with my htc phone where people with lumia 720 get 2 days with their phone. In the end I came to the conclusion that I choose the wrong phone for me.
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