1. MSFTisMIA's Avatar
    So...would love to hear from the forum on this one. How should Nokia improve its mid range offerings?

    I know that there are many happy 620, 720, 820, 822 and a few contented 810 users out there. As a 810 user for the past 9 months, the phone has been admirable to use as a daily driver. However, my thought has been based on Nokia's latest offerings and how they launched the mid range line, I think they goofed big time, especially with the 8xx line.

    My feeling has always been that the 8xx, 9xx and the new 10xx are the high end lines. In fact, price point wise, I've seen the 820 sell at the same price as the 8X and Ativ S - at least on one website I use to get unlocked models in the US. So far from what I've read, it appears that the Lumias have been holding their value, which means that their prices haven't shifted much since launch. This means that if Nokia wants to offer better value in the mid range, they need to make changes to 7xx and 8xx line in particular to keep them viable.

    The 820 was a mistake for my taste, in that it should have been a 16GB internal + 1800mah battery model. If you split the Lumia lines in 2 and say that the 1020, 920, 720, and 520 are one line and the 620 and 820 are the other, you'd have to think that the differences in the 620 and 820 aren't as clearly laid out as in the other line. In the other line you get edgy designs, and a clear upgrade in experience at each price point as you go up. From 520 to 720, you get a improved camera, bigger battery, more storage. From 720 to 920, you get improved camera, more storage, more RAM, bigger screen. From 920 to 1020 you get more RAM, improved camera and a better fitting screen. Looking at the 620 to 820, yes you get bigger screen and more RAM...but that's all. As we've seen, the differences between 720 and 820 are so minute that you're better offer getting a 720 in most cases.

    I like what Nokia is doing, overall. I think they should make the 6xx and 7xx lines the focus of their mid range, and either kill the 8xx line or just keep it as a high end concept line with 16GB internals 1GB RAM and memory card slot as it standard features and mess with screen size and all the other stuff here.

    What do folks think? Is Nokia's mid range game fine for now, or does it really needs some serious work to make it stand out like its high end 9xx line or the killer low end 5xx series?
    08-24-2013 05:34 AM
  2. Huime's Avatar
    I would say you probably missed it since you did not mention the timeline factor and the other being the fact that fixed cost plays a dominant factor in today's mobile business.

    About the timeline factor. 920 and 820 was a pair of offering at the time they launched. 8series made it clear as a water downed 9 series but gets the mSD as a selling point. The next came along was the 620 which was a full compromised in hardware but in return gets the full Nokia app package. Then 720 and 520 came with the 7 taking benefit of the latest n9-ish design progress and 520with the 620-ish snap cover design but this time tradeoff the Nokia exclusive with even lower price point.

    Then comes the fix cost. Basically all models shares the same architecture minus three obvious differences, LCD, CPU and ram. If you looked into the part in the aftermarket you will find that there is no way that 920 can cost almost twice as the 620 was. So basically Nokia crippled each lower model with a package offering to made up the differences. Its the only way to squeeze in 6 models within the $400 price range.
    08-24-2013 07:38 AM
  3. WanderingTraveler's Avatar
    Well, I'd be content with the future 8xx devices being smaller and slightly slower versions of the 9xx line.

    Why? Because the so-called 'Mini' versions of the flagships (Galaxy S4 Mini, HTC One Mini, etc.) are simply crippled versions of their larger counterparts, nothing more.

    I see Nokia potentially striking gold here.
    MSFTisMIA likes this.
    08-24-2013 08:05 AM
  4. MSFTisMIA's Avatar
    I would say you probably missed it since you did not mention the timeline factor and the other being the fact that fixed cost plays a dominant factor in today's mobile business.

    About the timeline factor. 920 and 820 was a pair of offering at the time they launched. 8series made it clear as a water downed 9 series but gets the mSD as a selling point. The next came along was the 620 which was a full compromised in hardware but in return gets the full Nokia app package. Then 720 and 520 came with the 7 taking benefit of the latest n9-ish design progress and 520with the 620-ish snap cover design but this time tradeoff the Nokia exclusive with even lower price point.

    Then comes the fix cost. Basically all models shares the same architecture minus three obvious differences, LCD, CPU and ram. If you looked into the part in the aftermarket you will find that there is no way that 920 can cost almost twice as the 620 was. So basically Nokia crippled each lower model with a package offering to made up the differences. Its the only way to squeeze in 6 models within the $400 price range.
    Glad you brought up the timeline. All those models were in production at various points close enough to each other...that's the only way Nokia could have launched them so closely (relatively speaking). So since they knew what was coming, they took a calculated gamble that the 8xx line wouldn't sell as much, especially in the US. Again, I'm not knocking their approach completely...they took the quickest way to build the brand by hitting multiple price points and staggering them in various markets. But, I still say Nokia needs good sales in its mid range to really win because it will compete against Androids and that cheap iPhone there.
    08-24-2013 08:27 AM
  5. WanderingTraveler's Avatar
    Glad you brought up the timeline. All those models were in production at various points close enough to each other...that's the only way Nokia could have launched them so closely (relatively speaking). So since they knew what was coming, they took a calculated gamble that the 8xx line wouldn't sell as much, especially in the US. Again, I'm not knocking their approach completely...they took the quickest way to build the brand by hitting multiple price points and staggering them in various markets. But, I still say Nokia needs good sales in its mid range to really win because it will compete against Androids and that cheap iPhone there.
    Nope, they took a bet that the 820 would sell well outside the US, and outside of ATT.

    It only sold well on Verizon-and with a variant at that.
    Tasha Rafiel likes this.
    08-24-2013 10:14 AM
  6. WanderingTraveler's Avatar
    Mind you, despite being two different companies, HTC and Nokia have consistently enjoyed one key strength: the Mid-Range market.

    Now, HTC wound up abandoning that market...Nokia, on the other hand, wound up with a string of successes (710, 620, 720).

    Now, as to why they're performing poorly right now, let us remember that the mid-range market is the weakest market segment on mobile.
    In the mid-range, you either get underspecced phones (Lumia 720) or old phones that have dropped in price (Lumia 800, 900).
    08-24-2013 10:23 AM
  7. MSFTisMIA's Avatar
    Mind you, despite being two different companies, HTC and Nokia have consistently enjoyed one key strength: the Mid-Range market.

    Now, HTC wound up abandoning that market...Nokia, on the other hand, wound up with a string of successes (710, 620, 720).

    Now, as to why they're performing poorly right now, let us remember that the mid-range market is the weakest market segment on mobile.
    In the mid-range, you either get underspecced phones (Lumia 720) or old phones that have dropped in price (Lumia 800, 900).
    Nope, they took a bet that the 820 would sell well outside the US, and outside of ATT.

    It only sold well on Verizon-and with a variant at that.
    Agreed on the 822's success in the US. It was aggressively priced and gave great value in comparison to the higher priced 8X on Verizon.

    Your points are noted about the mid range issues. The problem Nokia may face is that because their Lumias may not lose value, they cannot count on a 920 dropping into the mid range to give additional sales. To me, this is why the idea of the mini flagship is appealing for the 8xx line. I think they can be creative with the 7xx line and add a few premium features in there too. I'm curious to see what they come up with.
    WanderingTraveler likes this.
    08-24-2013 09:32 PM
  8. WanderingTraveler's Avatar
    Agreed on the 822's success in the US. It was aggressively priced and gave great value in comparison to the higher priced 8X on Verizon.

    Your points are noted about the mid range issues. The problem Nokia may face is that because their Lumias may not lose value, they cannot count on a 920 dropping into the mid range to give additional sales. To me, this is why the idea of the mini flagship is appealing for the 8xx line. I think they can be creative with the 7xx line and add a few premium features in there too. I'm curious to see what they come up with.
    In my opinion, despite the horrible execution, the Nokia WP7 strategy was the best.
    Why?

    Here's why.

    The 900 was simply a larger version of the 800 with a FFC.
    While this is the opposite of what I'd like to happen (8xx should be smaller version of 9xx), this was still a great strategy.
    You had a slightly-lower-specced 8xx device with features (curved glass in this scenario, and a superior design) not found in the 9xx device, which also has exclusive features (a FFC in this case) not found in the 8xx, to justify its price markup.

    Okay, next you have the 710.
    Barring uninspiring design, this has been the perfect execution of a 7xx device.
    The specs are of the high-end (though slightly crippled if I did this), yet lacking features found in the 8xx counterpart.

    This is where I think Nokia has failed in. The 720 could've been more of a hit, but the 512 MB RAM was a miss. Throw in a Qualcomm 200 and 2 GB RAM, and you'll have a bestseller.

    The 505/510 and 610 are mirrors of the 52x and 620. Except that, you know, way better execution on the part of the 52x line.

    Release the 6xx THEN release a slightly cheaper 5xx, which is simply a crippled 6xx (no messing around with the internal storage and RAM, though. Keep them as close as possible)

    And, that is my dream Nokia strategy.

    Add 5x5, 7x5 and 9x5 devices as phablets, or even better, enterprise phones with physical keyboards, or dedicated gaming phones like the N-Gage...you get my point.

    Also, rename the 1020 to the PureView series...let's say, PureView 8. It should act as the halo device.
    08-24-2013 10:23 PM
  9. Huime's Avatar
    Another factor that had been pointed out earlier, Nokia phones dont keep their value very well due to extremely fast refreshed models that pops out every 3 months. Take 920 for example. It started with $700 in China and quickly dropped to $600 in three months. Thats ok since 920 has all the value to cover that price margin. But look at 820, it started at around $600, which is in translate RMB1800, quite a noticeable difference to consumer.But three months later 820 still holds around $530, seems like they both dropped proportionally in percentage but it made so less difference in money value. Now you can pick up a brand new 920 in china at around $350, a very reasonable price for anyone that is aiming for a decent smartphone, who still wants the same old 1st gen WP8 820 anyways...
    08-25-2013 12:05 AM
  10. WanderingTraveler's Avatar
    Another factor that had been pointed out earlier, Nokia phones dont keep their value very well due to extremely fast refreshed models that pops out every 3 months. Take 920 for example. It started with $700 in China and quickly dropped to $600 in three months. Thats ok since 920 has all the value to cover that price margin. But look at 820, it started at around $600, which is in translate RMB1800, quite a noticeable difference to consumer.But three months later 820 still holds around $530, seems like they both dropped proportionally in percentage but it made so less difference in money value. Now you can pick up a brand new 920 in china at around $350, a very reasonable price for anyone that is aiming for a decent smartphone, who still wants the same old 1st gen WP8 820 anyways...
    You forgot to point out yet another thing: this is simply the way Nokia has always done stuff, except now, we're not really getting a flood of new phones.
    08-25-2013 12:19 AM
  11. MSFTisMIA's Avatar
    Another factor that had been pointed out earlier, Nokia phones dont keep their value very well due to extremely fast refreshed models that pops out every 3 months. Take 920 for example. It started with $700 in China and quickly dropped to $600 in three months. Thats ok since 920 has all the value to cover that price margin. But look at 820, it started at around $600, which is in translate RMB1800, quite a noticeable difference to consumer.But three months later 820 still holds around $530, seems like they both dropped proportionally in percentage but it made so less difference in money value. Now you can pick up a brand new 920 in china at around $350, a very reasonable price for anyone that is aiming for a decent smartphone, who still wants the same old 1st gen WP8 820 anyways...
    Actually, in most places Lumias have kept their value well...as in the price drops haven't been as significant and they have settled into each of their intended price point. That's been one of my issues with the 8xxx line. In some markets, the 820 is the same price as the 8X and Ativ S, which no matter how great Nokia OEM support, it loses to both on the hardware front. The key phones here are in the 7xx and 8xx lines. I think Nokia will be creative here, but right now, they're off to a sluggish start.
    WanderingTraveler likes this.
    08-25-2013 11:24 AM
  12. windows mobile rocks's Avatar
    I am very happy with my 810. I like everything about it ( except the 8gb storage). The micro SD would make it perfect if I could just install apps on it. This device feels like a flagship. Its fast, powerful, no lag, takes great looking pictures( I have smart cam and pro camera). I had doubts, but after amber update, I still think this is a premium device, as a matter of fact it was the best my carrier had to offer.
    08-25-2013 11:42 AM
  13. MSFTisMIA's Avatar
    I am very happy with my 810. I like everything about it ( except the 8gb storage). The micro SD would make it perfect if I could just install apps on it. This device feels like a flagship. Its fast, powerful, no lag, takes great looking pictures( I have smart cam and pro camera). I had doubts, but after amber update, I still think this is a premium device, as a matter of fact it was the best my carrier had to offer.
    I do like my 810, EXCEPT for the 8GB storage. It could be lighter, but that's just nitpicking. That's why I think the 822 got the best of the 820 variants...big internal storage, LTE, big battery.
    08-25-2013 12:11 PM
  14. Huime's Avatar
    Actually, in most places Lumias have kept their value well...as in the price drops haven't been as significant and they have settled into each of their intended price point. That's been one of my issues with the 8xxx line. In some markets, the 820 is the same price as the 8X and Ativ S, which no matter how great Nokia OEM support, it loses to both on the hardware front. The key phones here are in the 7xx and 8xx lines. I think Nokia will be creative here, but right now, they're off to a sluggish start.
    I guess you probably shouldnt compare those two other phones. It is clear to the mass consumer, after a 8 months race, a Lumia is probably the best choice for the moment. Supply demand at work here.
    08-25-2013 06:16 PM
  15. MSFTisMIA's Avatar
    I guess you probably shouldnt compare those two other phones. It is clear to the mass consumer, after a 8 months race, a Lumia is probably the best choice for the moment. Supply demand at work here.
    Ultimately, thats a problem for the platform. At least when WP8 was launched, you saw ads for the 8X and the 920. Now, all you see are 1020 ads and the occasional 928 ad. Guess when AT&T gets the 925 we will see some ads there, because you hardly see ads for that (talking about US TV ads here). MSFT wants to be like Google in that you think of MSFT FIRST when you think of WP, not Nokia and Lumia. If HTC or Samsung out half the effort or Nokia into WP, Nokia has to double its efforts to be the leading WP OEM.
    The comparisons are still valid. The mass consumer on a budget will still pick the device that best suits their needs. Personally, I know how to use my hardware, so "OEM support" doesn't bother me...hence I can own a 8X or Ativ S and not "miss out" on Nokia's offerings. For a user like me, Nokia has nothing compelling in the mid range at this point. Not everyone upgrades alot. Many use their phones for the 2 years over the course of their contract.
    WanderingTraveler likes this.
    08-25-2013 06:44 PM

Similar Threads

  1. Nokia Lumia 925 and HDMI
    By NinjaGrinch in forum Nokia Lumia 925
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 05-22-2014, 12:29 PM
  2. Allow bing search from lock screen not working.
    By hsn97 in forum Nokia Lumia 620
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 09-17-2013, 07:36 AM
  3. Can the 928 be made to work on ATT
    By sph0308 in forum Nokia Lumia 928
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 08-25-2013, 02:10 PM
  4. Nokia message tone problem
    By Eblermeister in forum Nokia Lumia 920
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 08-23-2013, 11:26 PM
  5. [FREE APP + Optional Purchase] Nokia Colection
    By Dustin Hodges in forum App Spotlight
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 08-23-2013, 10:07 PM
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD