Why apps need 1GB RAM in WP when it can run on 512MB on other OS?

[monzki]

Why are we fighting with each other?
We are on the same team and nothing we say here is going to change the current state of things . I also have a 620(512 mb ram) and also hope that support comes soon. Lets all hope for the best.

For me, maybe I just got annoyed when people asked TS to upgrade when it is very unnecessary since Temple Run 2 can run on a 256mb device.

 

[Dantekai14]

I am little confuse here

Is WP 130MB or 150MB RAM(whatever) restriction is responsible for this problem or
Developers laziness or
Developers aren't interested making apps for WP because they think WP isn't worth their time and hard work?

I think these all things are combined responsible for this problem. Now it's becoming a trend in WP that all new apps/games support first 1GB RAM devices then after few months it will come for 512MB RAM devices and I think budget we should get prepare even for worse because we might see many apps which will never comes on 512MB RAM devices.
Anyway I'll soon leave WP(may be in next 3-4 months) because it didn't stand on my expectation. WP is my first smartphone may be it's time I'll give a try to Android or iOS.

One more question if anyone knows - is Joe Belfiore is somehow involved in developing this apps?

@TheNet Avenger - about your second point ,You should check Temple Run on iPhone 3gs and WP 512MB RAM devices. You'll notice that you are wrong about this.

 

[Binoya Mathews]

I am little confuse here

Is WP 130MB or 150MB RAM(whatever) restriction is responsible for this problem or
Developers laziness or
Developers aren't interested making apps for WP because they think WP isn't worth their time and hard work?

I think these all things are combined responsible for this problem. Now it's becoming a trend in WP that all new apps/games support first 1GB RAM devices then after few months it will come for 512MB RAM devices and I think budget we should get prepare even for worse because we might see many apps which will never comes on 512MB RAM devices.
Anyway I'll soon leave WP(may be in next 3-4 months) because it didn't stand on my expectation. WP is my first smartphone may be it's time I'll give a try to Android or iOS.

One more question if anyone knows - is Joe Belfiore is somehow involved in developing this apps?

@TheNet Avenger - about your second point ,You should check Temple Run on iPhone 3gs and WP 512MB RAM devices. You'll notice that you are wrong about this.

Here you can find more about the app memory cap restrictions App memory limits for Windows Phone 8
Yep, its got to do with all of those reasons ,but the memory cap has been put there to ensure it doesn`t lead to any lag on the phone. At the same time having more RAM for an application in the case of iOS would ensure smoother operation. So, it needs to be increased IMO but as I said there won`t be too many 512 MB devices in the future, so that just about solves it.
Joe Belfiore beta tests the big app releases. AFAIK he did that with Vine. So possibly he may be doing it in the case of a few apps esp. games when like this which may need work on optimisation.
And well,if you are in fact switching, i hate to say this but even now iOS is the best option, thank you Microsoft for being so late to take the mobile world seriously

 

[iamtim]

Clearly you are not answering anything here

Yes, I am. So are many other people. You're just not a developer so you don't understand the process. You're also very impatient and you want everything NOW.

Clearly it's WP fault that they are not able to make this OS interesting for developers in 3 years.

So with Vine and Instagram and Gameloft and all the other apps coming to WP in the last few months, you're going to sit here and say that it's a developer interest issue? You just don't get it... it's a market share issue. Without the market share, developers aren't going to spend a whole lot of time porting and optimizing their apps. Now that the market share is arriving, we're getting more apps and as the market share grows they'll get more and more optimized. Any developer worth their salt IS interested in spreading their apps to every platform available, but it has to be worth their time.

Clearly early adopter are paying the price for it.
Clearly WP users(own 512MB RAM devices and which is majority also) aren't happy with this.
Clearly WP developers have to do something about this instead of making users wait more.

I don't necessarily disagree with this. You just need to relax and let the developers do what they do. It's not as easy as you think.

One more question if anyone knows - is Joe Belfiore is somehow involved in developing this apps?

He's the "Microsoft guy". He's not involved with the actual development of non-Microsoft apps, but he is very much "in the know". So, like, he's probably the guy who interfaced with Instagram and Vine and Gameloft to get their development on WP going.

 

[anon(7900571)]

Ok let me do some quick test on ios , how it manages ram while playing a simple game like subway surfers. Will post the screen shoot soon. This will clear how ios is different from window phone and android. I will be using my ipad 3 which have a dual core CPU with 1GB ram and quad core graphics and still lags a lot due to latest ios 7 bugs lol.

 

[anon(7900571)]

Specifications of my iPad


All applications are closed. Nothing was running in the background and it was using 626 MB of ram idle(ios7 does uses more ram ,services like game centre icloud can't be closed similar to windows phone background services like email,xbox,skydrive etc )


Played subway surfers


Subway surfers alone took 241 MB of ram all alone as you can see. And it was lil laggy sometimes but when compared to my Lumia 920. Lumia 920 wins this race.


Moral :- when we compare two different os, they have different types of ram management ,they handle stuffs differently.windows phone is by far the best os as it requires less ram,resources (don't compare android here hehe).
People asking for games on 512MB. I will say just wait for few days, let the developers re build the app for 512mb ram. It does require lot of time,energy to compile the codes.its confirmed that everyone will get these games as said by joe ( creator of WP) on twitter.so patience is what I can say. As of now 1gb ram users are like bet testers. There are bugs in temple run 2 which will be fixed slowly in commimg updates with support for 512mb devices.

Happy holidays and merry Christmas xxx




Sent from my iPad using WPCentral Forums mobile app

 

[greedypnguin]

Off topic but has anybody successfully used the proxy trick after gdr3 dev preview

 

[a5cent]

Well, wasn`t aware of that. If that is so,it is again a restriction , don`t feel it`s going to be changed though because 512 MB devices are being phased out of the market.

WP has always worked like that, from the very first day.

What you and others don't quite yet grasp (which is completely understandable if you lack a background in software development), is that this is neither a glitch nor an arbitrary restriction. This is a conscious design decision, that has benefits as well as trade-offs. Those who interpret this is a sign of WP requiring more "optimization", just don't understand software to the depth required to make sense of what is going on. This is actually an optimization! It is simply optimizing other aspects of the system; aspects which most probably aren't aware of.

This memory management scheme allows WP to reduce memory heap fragmentation and increase the speed of memory allocation operations, compared to the scenario where no assumptions about maximal memory usage can be made. This also allows WP to guarantee that a predetermined amount of RAM will always be available to every app, every time. That makes app development "easier" and more robust. This represents a vast simplification compared to scenarios where developers can never quite be sure about how much RAM they have at their disposal, particularly for apps that make heavy use of the heap (as opposed to more static runtime memory management) and that could make good use of large amounts of RAM.

IMHO WP's memory management scheme is very good, and particularly well suited for a smartphone that must work reliably and deterministically without virtual memory and memory swap files. Is it perfect? No. But no memory management scheme is. It is a more robust scheme than what iOS and Android offer.

What I do think MS should reconsider, is how they rely on RAM capacity to segment the market. RAM is cheap, but almost all WP devices ship with only 512 MB RAM, except for the highest end devices. I think that should be switched around, so that almost all WP devices come with at least 1GB or RAM, except for the lowest end devices (probably only the L520/L525). If at that point someone still buys a device that has too little RAM for the games they want to play, I'd say they have only themselves to blame. Expecting the cheapest device to be as capable as the most expensive is obviously obtuse. As it is now, there are too many mid range devices with the same low memory limitations, and you'll never get people to understand or think about the consequences of choosing the 512 MB device over the 1GB device. That is what MS needs to think about changing... the memory management scheme itself is fine.

 

[Dantekai14]

Thanks! for the answer.
So, WP allot less RAM(180MB) to apps/ games.

Then I curious about how Android works. I checked two less RAM phones Xperia U and Galaxy S advance. Android actually employ less RAM for OS. For application it show 368MB RAM(Xperia U) or 555MB RAM(Galaxy S Advance). That means Android is better for apps/games because where WP force developers to use less RAM or resources.

Am I right here? or may be it was graphic.

So, which OS employ more resources? which OS is better for apps?

 

[anon(7900571)]

Thanks! for the answer.
So, WP allot less RAM(180MB) to apps/ games.

Then I curious about how Android works. I checked two less RAM phones Xperia U and Galaxy S advance. Android actually employ less RAM for OS. For application it show 368MB RAM(Xperia U) or 555MB RAM(Galaxy S Advance). That means Android is better for apps/games because where WP force developers to use less RAM or resources.

Am I right here?

na android is a resource hungry os, it requires quad core chipsets,1/2gb ram. even if the phone have 1gigabyte of ram it consumes 50-60% of it rest is remained for the games.there are many background task running by google(framework,syn,backup,playstore services. same applies to ios gamecentre,icloud,backup,dynamic wallpapers,etc).

 

[FinancialP]

View attachment 52579
Specifications of my iPad

View attachment 52580
All applications are closed. Nothing was running in the background and it was using 626 MB of ram idle(ios7 does uses more ram ,services like game centre icloud can't be closed similar to windows phone background services like email,xbox,skydrive etc )

View attachment 52581
Played subway surfers

View attachment 52582
Subway surfers alone took 241 MB of ram all alone as you can see. And it was lil laggy sometimes but when compared to my Lumia 920. Lumia 920 wins this race.


Moral :- when we compare two different os, they have different types of ram management ,they handle stuffs differently.windows phone is by far the best os as it requires less ram,resources (don't compare android here hehe).
People asking for games on 512MB. I will say just wait for few days, let the developers re build the app for 512mb ram. It does require lot of time,energy to compile the codes.its confirmed that everyone will get these games as said by joe ( creator of WP) on twitter.so patience is what I can say. As of now 1gb ram users are like bet testers. There are bugs in temple run 2 which will be fixed slowly in commimg updates with support for 512mb devices.

Happy holidays and merry Christmas xxx




Sent from my iPad using WPCentral Forums mobile app

That's a real fair comparison huh? A tablet with a 9.7 inch screen, vs a phone? Sure....

Here is subway surfers on a iPhone 3GS(yes a phone from 2009 is playing 2013 games just fine) with 256mb of RAM running just fine.

http://youtu.be/uriRl85buhc

Give the developers time.

 

[anon(7900571)]

That's a real fair comparison huh? A tablet with a 9.7 inch screen, vs a phone? Sure....

Here is subway surfers on a iPhone 3GS(yes a phone from 2009 is playing 2013 games just fine) with 256mb of RAM running just fine.

subway surfer rome on iphone 3gs - YouTube

Give the developers time.

hahah since I don't have iPhone (sold and get a new Lumia 920 last year ) , I was only left with my new iPad.I wish I would have opted Microsoft surface :/

 

[FinancialP]

na android is a resource hungry os, it requires quad core chipsets,1/2gb ram. even if the phone have 1gigabyte of ram it consumes 50-60% of it rest is remained for the games.there are many background task running by google(framework,syn,backup,playstore services. same applies to ios gamecentre,icloud,backup,dynamic wallpapers,etc).

Which version of android are you talking about, Gingerbread? You can't be talking about Jelly Bean, or kit kat.

Why would you even throw iOS in the mix with Android?

 

[anon(7900571)]

Which version of android are you talking about, Gingerbread? You can't be talking about Jelly Bean, or kit kat.

Why would you even throw iOS in the mix with Android?

I didn't mentioned the version, I have used galaxy s4 couple of times and whenever I open up the task manager it eats 60% of memory. Have to clean up the ram to make the phone back on its speed.i guess its not android to do, scamsung has customized it with its own so called touch wiz UI which is itself lagy,even on a quad core phone with 2gigs of ram.

 

[FinancialP]

hahah since I don't have iPhone (sold and get a new Lumia 920 last year ) , I was only left with my new iPad.I wish I would have opted Microsoft surface :/

Lol, I'm making the same face. I missed the original Surface RT $169 sale.

I might have to bite the bullet and pay full price.

 

[anon(7900571)]

I missed the original Surface RT $169 sale.

whoa that was a nice deal. I am not investing in apple's ios or google android. you know where I want to invest (WP by Microsoft) I trust them, some folks call Microsoft a slow poison but I love their hard work for new innovations that surprises me from past 15 years

 

[Binoya Mathews]

That is what MS needs to think about changing... the memory management scheme itself is fine.

Well, I never said that it was a glitch. I clearly mentioned it was for optimisation. About windows phone memory management being better than the one Apple has, well ,I don`t feel so.

.

 

[a5cent]

Well, I never said that it was a glitch. I clearly mentioned it was for optimisation. About windows phone memory management being better than the one Apple has, well ,I don`t feel so.

Not you called it a glitch, but a poster a bit above you. I was just being lazy and included references to others in my reply to you. Sorry.

If you'd also explain why you feel Apple's indeterminate approach is superior, which requires all kinds of mechanisms be in place to ensure stability in low memory situations, I'd be happy to hear them.

 

[a5cent]

Thanks! for the answer.
So, WP allot less RAM(180MB) to apps/ games.

Then I curious about how Android works. I checked two less RAM phones Xperia U and Galaxy S advance. Android actually employ less RAM for OS. For application it show 368MB RAM(Xperia U) or 555MB RAM(Galaxy S Advance). That means Android is better for apps/games because where WP force developers to use less RAM or resources.

Am I right here?

No, you are wrong, or at least you aren't always right, as it will ultimately depend on each individual game. A lot of games don't even get anywhere close to requiring 180 MB, in which case the limit is completely irrelevant.

Furthermore, WP devices offer an app different amounts of memory, based on the device's total RAM capacity. From 1GB models, apps can request and receive up to 380 MB. Based on the fact that you mentioned only the 180 MB limit, you are apparently considering only 512 MB WP devices, but you are comparing them to a Galaxy S advance, with 768 MB RAM. You're not making an apples to apples comparison!

Finally, you're making the assumption that using more RAM is always worse and using less RAM is always better. That is such an extreme oversimplification that it's just completely wrong. At least just as important, if not more so, is how that occupied RAM is being put to use. If that sentence means nothing to you, I'd recommend finding an article describing the space-time trade-off as defined by computer science. In a nutshell, it shows how the performance of almost any algorithm can be improved by using more RAM, or get by with less RAM if you are willing to have an algorithm that is computationally more intensive for the CPU. This is a very typical scenario encountered in computer programing, which begs the question whether it might be better to be less frugal with RAM in order to gain higher performance (putting it to good use). If such design choices lead to an overall more efficient system, which also benefits games, is the higher RAM usage then good or bad? My point is really just this: looking only at RAM consumption without understanding what it is being used for, tells you little to nothing.

In closing, I'll again mention that this limitation is optimizing other aspects of the OS. For example, on a WP device, you'll never encounter a game for which your device meets the minimal requirements, but other background tasks won't allow that game to run properly due to their own RAM consumption. A game on WP will also never crash due to encountering an out of memory exception, nor will your WP device suddenly start stuttering in game, due to the OS having to unload apps from memory to make more room for your game. These are all realistic scenarios on Android devices, but you seem happy to just ignore aspects like these entirely. IMHO such aspects deserve to be counted towards making a device good for gaming... IMHO there is much more too it than just your very narrow view of the topic.

Explaining how memory management works on Android is far to involved for a forum post. Google is your best bet (here), but you can always return with specific questions.

Far more important than the restrictions being discussed here, is that games are ported to WP more as an afterthought. If games were developed for WP first and iOS and Android second, you'd see the exact same phenomenon just in reverse. Thankfully, the remedy is easy: buy a device with at least 1GB of RAM!

 

[anon(7900571)]

A5cent you know much about developing apps. It's great to hear such comments from members on wpcentral. Thanx for sharing such informative about ram management xoxo