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01-19-2014 09:32 PM
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  1. MSFTisMIA's Avatar
    People talk about updates. Firstly, you cannot ingore the carriers. Please don't mention Apple because Apple negotiated tighter deadlines for carriers to address their firmware issues, have less devices to support and have the number of users that behooves carriers to stick to the script and approve stuff quickly. Plus, the whole "frequency update" and "fragmentation" was stuff from Apple. Reason being that a lot of the initial updates in iOS were adding welcomed features to mature the OS. Now they are down to a couple of major updates annually, the rest being bug fixes. But with that mindset cultivated, it is a bunch of hype and excitement for no real reason with each Apple software update.

    Google is the same too, but because OEMs skin the OS to make money, their software turn around times is longer. Added to that the carriers have more leverage, that honestly, it may be better from a carrier POV to eat a phone and put its successor out with the lastest software than to support it. We've seen many examples of this. It is not like t-mo orders 10 million S4s at once - they order a batch, once it starts to sell well, they know how many to order to subsequently to get them into consumers' hands.

    MSFT was trying to straddle that line but had no clout with the carriers to push through timely updates - because the carriers worked closer with the OEMs. Now that MSFT is starting to have the user base with more people buying WP, perhaps they can negotiate better turn arounds. People forget that the Lumia 900 was a dead in the water phone used to really open the doors of the US market to WP in a fresh way. I say so because MSFT and Nokia already knew when WP8 was coming out and that it wouldn't get it.

    My point is that I'd rather a mix of both - quicker updates from MSFT for the major releases, sprinkled in with OEM related improvements. They don't HAVE to be at the same time, as how Nokia has chosen to do it. Perhaps that is where another OEM can come in to give the consumer the feel of "constant updates like Apple"...
    01-13-2014 12:30 PM
  2. Citizen X's Avatar
    I only see two phablets for Andriod... both Samsung.
    Um HTC and Sony both have android phablets as well.
    Never seen either in an at&t store nor in the wild.
    01-13-2014 12:32 PM
  3. Citizen X's Avatar
    What Apple does is that it uses its hardware and OS to fulfill one goal: have users consumer content, and be able get profits from doing so.
    Apple makes most of its profits from selling overpriced hardware... which is mostly phones and ipads.
    James8561 and snowmutt like this.
    01-13-2014 12:35 PM
  4. amrut_m's Avatar
    Today whatever WP is is because of Nokia, Live with it or deny the fact.

    If it was'nt for Nokia, MS and WP would be dead already.
    MS saw what Nokia did with WP8,it took WP8 to new heights,
    with 920 launch,it was the most sold WP device that time,later they introduced 520,720 to capture the market.
    Later launched 1020 and showed that they are still the best when it comes to Cameras. So MS bought Nokia,it ws like Nokia needed MS and MS needed NOKIA.
    Nokia Knew and Knows How to Capture market,but they are a bit lacked out by the Carrier System and Marketing side.

    More OEMs will help WP to Rise even further,would be able to capture market by 2x-3x forcr,it will encourage developers to build apps.
    01-13-2014 12:52 PM
  5. etad putta's Avatar
    People talk about updates. Firstly, you cannot ingore the carriers. Please don't mention Apple because Apple negotiated tighter deadlines for carriers to address their firmware issues, have less devices to support and have the number of users that behooves carriers to stick to the script and approve stuff quickly. Plus, the whole "frequency update" and "fragmentation" was stuff from Apple. Reason being that a lot of the initial updates in iOS were adding welcomed features to mature the OS. Now they are down to a couple of major updates annually, the rest being bug fixes. But with that mindset cultivated, it is a bunch of hype and excitement for no real reason with each Apple software update.

    Google is the same too, but because OEMs skin the OS to make money, their software turn around times is longer. Added to that the carriers have more leverage, that honestly, it may be better from a carrier POV to eat a phone and put its successor out with the lastest software than to support it. We've seen many examples of this. It is not like t-mo orders 10 million S4s at once - they order a batch, once it starts to sell well, they know how many to order to subsequently to get them into consumers' hands.

    MSFT was trying to straddle that line but had no clout with the carriers to push through timely updates - because the carriers worked closer with the OEMs. Now that MSFT is starting to have the user base with more people buying WP, perhaps they can negotiate better turn arounds. People forget that the Lumia 900 was a dead in the water phone used to really open the doors of the US market to WP in a fresh way. I say so because MSFT and Nokia already knew when WP8 was coming out and that it wouldn't get it.

    My point is that I'd rather a mix of both - quicker updates from MSFT for the major releases, sprinkled in with OEM related improvements. They don't HAVE to be at the same time, as how Nokia has chosen to do it. Perhaps that is where another OEM can come in to give the consumer the feel of "constant updates like Apple"...
    You have convinced me, my next phone will be a nexus device, as will my tablet.
    01-13-2014 12:59 PM
  6. MSFTisMIA's Avatar
    But i don't want to choose between 2 or 3 different half arsed phones. Is it too much to ask to have them make a quality device as in the top fruit or green guy flagships? More isn't better, better is better. Sometimes i feel as though Nokia had people who had ADHD (no harm meant to those with it, i take my meds).
    I get you, but you, and some other folks here still missing where I'm coming from. It isn't about one aspect of the business model, in this case the hardware from OEMs, it is about the entire ecosystem.

    With the Android OS, each OEM has an opportunity to sell its own version of the Android Experience and tie into services into it. So OEMs can make money from the carriers who buy their phones, and users who buy into the OEMs services.

    Remember Apple gets 30% from each paid app. If you have 10 people buy an app that costs $1, of that $10 in sales, Apple gets $3. That's one revenue stream. Apple then gets money from each of those consumers buying an iDevice, and Apple licensed accessories. That's another revenue stream. Then I am sure Apple gets a cut from music, movies, shows purchased in the iTunes store. Again, more money for Apple. This is the Apple model everyone, including MSFT wants to emulate. Why did you think Apple fough Amazon so hard for the Apps store branding? Why did you think Jobs hated Android so much? It's about profits.

    So yes, as a consumer, I want the best possible hardware out there to choose from. I don't want 3 half assed phones as options. But OEMs aren't going to wow consumers unless the carriers and software designers - in this case MSFT - doesn't give them a way to get money too.
    01-13-2014 01:02 PM
  7. MSFTisMIA's Avatar
    You have convinced me, my next phone will be a nexus device, as will my tablet.
    If that works for you, good for you. My point was to merely point out the bigger things that are happening in place that may play in why it takes a large group of corporations to move quickly on anything. I will still use Windows and WP for my needs because they are the best fit for me - limitations included. I don't care what OEM has the hardware I want, as long as it has the OS i want and the hardware can do the tasks i need it to do, I will buy from HTC, Nokia, Samsung, etc.
    01-13-2014 01:06 PM
  8. MSFTisMIA's Avatar
    Today whatever WP is is because of Nokia, Live with it or deny the fact.

    If it was'nt for Nokia, MS and WP would be dead already.
    MS saw what Nokia did with WP8,it took WP8 to new heights,
    with 920 launch,it was the most sold WP device that time,later they introduced 520,720 to capture the market.
    Later launched 1020 and showed that they are still the best when it comes to Cameras. So MS bought Nokia,it ws like Nokia needed MS and MS needed NOKIA.
    Nokia Knew and Knows How to Capture market,but they are a bit lacked out by the Carrier System and Marketing side.

    More OEMs will help WP to Rise even further,would be able to capture market by 2x-3x forcr,it will encourage developers to build apps.
    I don't disagree here because Nokia had good mindshare in the eyes of consumers, better than HTC and Samsung who were trying (and still are) to conquer Android space. So MSFT partnered with them to get things done. But as we know, great hardware and ****ty software makes a phone not sell. It is still on MSFT to mature the OS as if the user experience is crap, no one will buy it...
    01-13-2014 01:08 PM
  9. Greywolf1967's Avatar
    HTC in truth has not made a good Windows Phone since the HTC HD2, I know as I had one. It turned out to be one of the most flexible and highly mod'd phones around.

    It Ran WinMo 6.5, Windows Phone 7, Android in many flavors, Meego, Windows Phone 8 started to blink to life, and even Windows RT got hacked onto the device ( The Dark Forces Team ).

    After the HD2, HTC just didn't put the same into the devices.....HD7, HD Surround, Titan and Titan II, all were basic clones of the HD2 but with no passion. The Radar was a Step in the right direction.
    It took it style from a smallish HTC Android Tablet, but they really made a good phone with that, but left it as a mid to low end phone.

    I am sorry but the HTC 8x and 8s were just a half hearted attempt to cash in on Nokia's style and flair from the launch of the L700, L800 and L900, which at the time caused a buzz because Nokia had phones with wild color and new body shells.

    Nokia made every mobile builder sit up and take notice. Just look at the Androids that are now hitting the market.......Oh Android now wants to be colorful. Apple even chumpped Nokia style with the ipod mini or nano's that looked like a Nokia Lumia.

    What were the color options before Nokia????? White/Black/Grey/Silver in fact I think only Samsung was the odd one out, as they had a Windows Phone that was a Blue/Black tint of a plastic chrome.

    Even Apple now has the 5c in color options.

    So Nokia only looks to be a monopoly, but until they pushed the edges of design no one even noticed they were still alive. They have banked their future on 2 markets WP and Asha.....which is pulling them back from the dead.

    HTC on the other hand looked to Android to keep them alive, and sadly they have lost much of their market as even in their Android line they have lost inspiration.
    Attached Thumbnails ipodnano7g-sizecompare.jpg  
    Muessig and snowmutt like this.
    01-13-2014 01:19 PM
  10. neo158's Avatar
    At this point I'd rather there just be one, Nokia or soon to be Microsoft. The 8X is a gorgeous phone. But HTC hasn't done a phone since. And Samsung's phones are ugly Android second hand phones.
    I disagree, competition is good but if you want to spend 1000/1000/$1000 on your smartphone then that's fine but I don't think anyone else would!!
    01-13-2014 02:03 PM
  11. neo158's Avatar
    Android 4.4 (KitKat) was released in November 2013 and it's had 2 updates already. iOS 7 was released in September 2013 and has had 4 updates so far. And as far as I know WP8 has had 2 official updates since its release in October 2012. And if you want to count updates to Android & iOS since WP8 was released, Android has had 8 updates and iOS has had 12 by my count.

    So no, it doesn't hold a candle to what Google and Apple put out...
    Those two updates to KitKat added no new features to the OS whatsoever. By comparison Microsoft have added features with pretty much all three GDRs!!

    So yes, it does hold a candle to and surpasses anything that Google and Apple have put out...
    01-13-2014 02:10 PM
  12. MSFTisMIA's Avatar
    HTC in truth has not made a good Windows Phone since the HTC HD2, I know as I had one. It turned out to be one of the most flexible and highly mod'd phones around.

    It Ran WinMo 6.5, Windows Phone 7, Android in many flavors, Meego, Windows Phone 8 started to blink to life, and even Windows RT got hacked onto the device ( The Dark Forces Team ).

    After the HD2, HTC just didn't put the same into the devices.....HD7, HD Surround, Titan and Titan II, all were basic clones of the HD2 but with no passion. The Radar was a Step in the right direction.
    It took it style from a smallish HTC Android Tablet, but they really made a good phone with that, but left it as a mid to low end phone.

    I am sorry but the HTC 8x and 8s were just a half hearted attempt to cash in on Nokia's style and flair from the launch of the L700, L800 and L900, which at the time caused a buzz because Nokia had phones with wild color and new body shells.

    Nokia made every mobile builder sit up and take notice. Just look at the Androids that are now hitting the market.......Oh Android now wants to be colorful. Apple even chumpped Nokia style with the ipod mini or nano's that looked like a Nokia Lumia.

    What were the color options before Nokia????? White/Black/Grey/Silver in fact I think only Samsung was the odd one out, as they had a Windows Phone that was a Blue/Black tint of a plastic chrome.

    Even Apple now has the 5c in color options.

    So Nokia only looks to be a monopoly, but until they pushed the edges of design no one even noticed they were still alive. They have banked their future on 2 markets WP and Asha.....which is pulling them back from the dead.

    HTC on the other hand looked to Android to keep them alive, and sadly they have lost much of their market as even in their Android line they have lost inspiration.
    What's interesting about the HD2 is that as far as running WM 6.5, it was OK. Once the hackers got to it, it was the best dev phone in the past few years. That's where the legend started.

    Agreed with the Radar. Good little phone. But, at the end of the day, the existing were not able to differentiate to make money because the user base was smaller in comparison to Android. Nokia saw an opportunity and did the best thing for them - use a Symbian based design (N9) to add WP in a good package. It wasn't an original design and one can argue that the design is now starting to age. Remember too, Nokia did a lot of the transition with MSFT's $. Without it, they'd have been RIM esque in their death.

    Personally I don't think HTC got uninspired. They gambled on the Apple high end style approach and lost. Now, they're struggling to consolidate. Their WP8 models weren't terrible (and their WP7 ones weren't too). The OS wasn't up to snuff in terms of its hardware support either.
    01-13-2014 02:27 PM
  13. xchange's Avatar
    Don't forget Sony, it will come this year.
    Sony IMO really stepped up their game last year to the point where I think their rendition of android is far better, more refined, better engineered and well thought out than HTC, LG, Samsung. If anyone were to make a WP now, they would be who I would want.
    Dadstar0410 likes this.
    01-13-2014 09:03 PM
  14. stephen_az's Avatar
    I love Nokia's support and their hardware. But I am tired of them being the only maker of hardware for WP8. That's why I got an HTC 8X at launch and will probably avoid Nokia in the future. My next phone will be another Windows Phone OEM just because I want them to get my money as support for future hardware. Who's with me? Anyone else feel the same way?
    So you love Nokia's hardware and support but will avoid Nokia? No offense but to say there is a lack of logic is an understatement. It is also the equivalent of an Apple buyer saying they won't buy Apple products because only Apple makes them. Stating that they are the only maker of hardware for WP8 so you will buy from another OEM next time is also lacking in logic. I am sorry but this certainly seems to be a case of complaining just to complain. Buy whatever you want but to say you have issues with the successful company you like because they make the best stuff and that there are no other choices so you will buy another brand sounds like someone has been spending too much time in Colorado's pot shops....
    Nogitsune Micah likes this.
    01-13-2014 09:25 PM
  15. Dadstar0410's Avatar
    So you love Nokia's hardware and support but will avoid Nokia? No offense but to say there is a lack of logic is an understatement. It is also the equivalent of an Apple buyer saying they won't buy Apple products because only Apple makes them. Stating that they are the only maker of hardware for WP8 so you will buy from another OEM next time is also lacking in logic. I am sorry but this certainly seems to be a case of complaining just to complain. Buy whatever you want but to say you have issues with the successful company you like because they make the best stuff and that there are no other choices so you will buy another brand sounds like someone has been spending too much time in Colorado's pot shops....
    I'm quite offended by this. It's actually far more trivial than you think. I like Nokia's hardware, but I want to be different. My whole life I sought to be different, because being against the in-crowd fills me with satisfaction. Sure I like Nokia's hardware and their support, but I just feel like someone else like Sony it LG could make the platform even better. Enough that I will buy their products and support them with my money. And given the number of comments on this thread, this is in no way "lacking in logic" like you state because, well, this sparked a conversation, did it not? Please, I do not want to read this kind of disrespectfulness on my thread. With all due respect, contribute positively to this discussion. Thank you.
    01-13-2014 09:38 PM
  16. tungha's Avatar
    count me in, the only reason I'm using Nokia devices is that they're the one who support this platform very well; however, i'm ready to jump the ship to other OEM if they're taking serious in supporting this OS
    Himanshu Chowdhary likes this.
    01-13-2014 09:40 PM
  17. thatotherdude24's Avatar
    I like that Nokia is the primary device manufacturer for WP. I always hoped MS would enter a devices and services era like Apple has been. MS I feel will always have the better hardware for the software note because MS makes the hardware and software therefore everything in theory should work very well together

    Sent From My Woven Black and Yellow Moto X
    Nogitsune Micah likes this.
    01-14-2014 12:33 AM
  18. AngryNil's Avatar
    HTC in truth has not made a good Windows Phone since the HTC HD2, I know as I had one.
    That only qualifies you to speak to about your own personal experience of the HD2, not on the entirety of HTC's Windows Phone range. Your opinion is your opinion, and nothing more that that.

    HTC completely carried WP7's launch lineup. They pushed for 4G support in Tango and released a device alongside Nokia. They built the 8X and 8S in collaboration with Microsoft and still seem to be the ones pushing out updates on day one. They have continued to prove to be capable of producing world class hardware through devices such as the 8X, favoured by many as the nicest WP8 launch device, and the One, which is one of the few devices lauded as iPhone-like in fit and finish.

    Nokia's hardware design is neat, but I think other OEMs have caught up. Years have passed and Nokia's best work is still some permutation of the N9 design. They struggle to keep their devices down in size compared to competitors, despite packing similar or worse internals with often undersized batteries. They have fat devices like the 920 and 620, and their attempt at thinning down led to the awkward, plastic-backed 925 (which has a bunch of other odd concessions, like the lack of built-in wireless charging). Then you've got stuff like this. Ultimately I do give the nod to Nokia, but that's more to do with their work on cameras and mapping.
    eric12341 and cckgz4 like this.
    01-14-2014 12:46 AM
  19. cckgz4's Avatar
    Those two updates to KitKat added no new features to the OS whatsoever. By comparison Microsoft have added features with pretty much all three GDRs!!

    So yes, it does hold a candle to and surpasses anything that Google and Apple have put out...
    The straw grasping is strong in this topic. Thank you for clearing up that the competition hasn't released SIGNIFICANT updates
    01-14-2014 12:49 AM
  20. windoors's Avatar
    There is no monopoly but Nokia will always be on top of the WP charts!
    amrut_m, metalchick719 and sumton like this.
    01-14-2014 01:13 AM
  21. Greywolf1967's Avatar
    That only qualifies you to speak to about your own personal experience of the HD2, not on the entirety of HTC's Windows Phone range. Your opinion is your opinion, and nothing more that that.

    HTC completely carried WP7's launch lineup. They pushed for 4G support in Tango and released a device alongside Nokia. They built the 8X and 8S in collaboration with Microsoft and still seem to be the ones pushing out updates on day one. They have continued to prove to be capable of producing world class hardware through devices such as the 8X, favoured by many as the nicest WP8 launch device, and the One, which is one of the few devices lauded as iPhone-like in fit and finish.

    Nokia's hardware design is neat, but I think other OEMs have caught up. Years have passed and Nokia's best work is still some permutation of the N9 design. They struggle to keep their devices down in size compared to competitors, despite packing similar or worse internals with often undersized batteries. They have fat devices like the 920 and 620, and their attempt at thinning down led to the awkward, plastic-backed 925 (which has a bunch of other odd concessions, like the lack of built-in wireless charging). Then you've got stuff like this. Ultimately I do give the nod to Nokia, but that's more to do with their work on cameras and mapping.
    Not fully true. I was a long time user of HTC going back to when they made phones branded to other Name Tags. My old Audiovox SMT 5600 (HTC Typhoon). You are right it is my opinion only, but it is the opinion of a long time HTC Fan.

    I don't like to slag a company, but I still feel the 8X and 8S were less then inspired. I did trial an 8X and just did not like it. I did love my Radar, and had they made 1 or 2 other models in a line like that I would have stuck with them. HTC needed a bumped up version of the Radar to put into the Premium Market. However they didn't follow it up. Then a year almost after Nokia launches the 700, 800, and 900....along came the 8X and 8S. ( 2011 and 2012 respectively ).

    The N9 issue was the hardware was awesome, the OS was not. No worry Add WP to the N9 line and a winner is made, as is the Asha line with the software of the N9. Nokia got their act together.

    Nokia is a creature of habit, the Lumia line does match that of the old days when all older Nokia's were had to tell each other apart. However they did have a good market share in the old days, and they are starting to recap some traction again with the Lumia line. However this will come to an end if they do not find something to add to the line.

    My hope would be that HTC will find a direction and design to pin them back on the market, even if they do the Surface Phone that is being whispered about quietly. That is a design that fits into HTC's wheel house !!!!!!!!!!!!
    Dadstar0410 likes this.
    01-14-2014 02:07 AM
  22. anony_mouse's Avatar
    Buy whatever you want but to say you have issues with the successful company you like because they make the best stuff and that there are no other choices so you will buy another brand sounds like someone has been spending too much time in Colorado's pot shops....
    Insulting someone who doesn't share your opinion - nice!
    Dadstar0410 likes this.
    01-14-2014 02:25 AM
  23. anony_mouse's Avatar
    I'm quite offended by this. It's actually far more trivial than you think. I like Nokia's hardware, but I want to be different. My whole life I sought to be different, because being against the in-crowd fills me with satisfaction.
    No offensive intended, but surely there are better ways to express your 'different-ness' than by buying products from large corporations?
    Nogitsune Micah likes this.
    01-14-2014 02:32 AM
  24. trainplane's Avatar
    If we had multiple OEM's, we might have had a flagship non-phablet Windows phone by the end of 2013, basically what the 929 will be. I've got a year left on my 920 contract, but if I were in the market for a Windows phone at the end of 2013 (on ATT), I would be pretty disappointed with the selection. 1020 with last year's processor/screen or 1520 with current specs but is gigantic. Nokia alone can't produce everything, trying to satisfy all their customers from low end phones to phablets so another OEM possibly could pick up where they can't. Problem is, Samsung, LG, and Sony don't seem to care and HTC has financial issues.
    01-14-2014 02:48 AM
  25. rex.reyesiii's Avatar
    I have faith in Sony though to make Music phones close/er to Audiophile/snob level compared to Nokia and the others.
    D'oh! I haven't heard music from HTC phones though.
    snowmutt likes this.
    01-14-2014 03:57 AM
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