Is it possible that Microsoft deliberately holds on all well-known flaws?

jdhooghe

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If I am wrong or expecting too much, let me know: Assuming that Microsoft has its own department of dedicated staff for WP8 and considering that they know how the OS works as they designed it. What is taking so long? It shouldn't be a problem as developers are forced to adhere to very strict APIs from my understanding so that all apps have the same structure. All follow the same execution. If they all use the same sound API, create another sound profile for the phone app that no app has access to. You don't break anything. You all keep saying that the foundation has been built yet knowing how to build a house is not totally unknown now. You have the required building blocks now which you have designed and understand, you know how they interact with one another since you've built it from the ground up and you know what is needed to make a house functional.

I really, really hope that there aren't 100 software engineers who all divvy up their time on W8, WRT and WP8 instead of dedicated TEAMS that work strictly on their own area. If that is the case then that is a HUGE problem.
 

a5cent

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^ I don't understand your question, but I can say that MS has dedicated teams for each product, although W8RT and W8 are actually the same product and hence engineered by the same team.
 

akar33

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Actually Apple has done this. iOS is based on MacOSX which in turn is based on Unix. As a5cent previously noted, Microsoft's single most biggest flaw was not having the windows on arm ready when wp7 launched. We wouldn't have faced a second platform reset with WP8 and they would concentrate more on building end user features. Porting the entire windows kernel to a friggin phone is no small feat and that obviously sucked all developer effort. I think a5cent's analogy makes perfect sense. The problem is just that a lot of people are overlooking the WP platform in favor of iOS or android.
 

d_abbatelli

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Taken in isolation, some of the smaller issues do look like they might be cheaply and quickly fixed.
cut
What I think does deserve questioning, is whether that which Microsoft did achieve was prioritized correctly. Personally, I'm not happy with "kids corner". I could be mistaken, but I can't imagine this feature netting WP a lot of sales. I think that a notification centre should have come first. I think "datasense" was another huge mistake. It should either have been available to everyone, or not done at all. WP just isn't at a point where Microsoft can afford to invest resources towards features only a minority of users can enjoy. I suspect we could have gotten custom sounds, separate volume controls and maybe even some extra IE10 features instead.

You are probably right. I don't work in software development, but I can imagine a whole lot of the issues you are talking about.
But still, I look at what Nokia is doing with WP and I compare with MS: the first was (and still is) a company leaning towards bankruptcy, the second one is a revenue machine... Yet, Nokia ported its navigation software from Symbian to WP in few months, and has been regularly updating it since then, and along with it's developing a whole lot of really well crafted apps, while Microsoft struggles to give us a calendar with a weekly view.

What you say about "prioritizing" is also very wise... What comes to my mind about this is "did they really need to replace Zune with two syncing software that basically are a beta version? Couldn't they wait the next release for that without depriving us of a endless number of features?".

Anyway, again, your picture totally makes sense, and I can see the same "pattern" in a lot of other MS products: outlook.com still has the old Hotmail calendar (even if they would have a perfect metro-style calendar working in office365 and ready to be ported). Office Outlook 2013 has a whole lot of bugs (I can't sync my default calendar with outlook.com, can't send emails as alias and lot of other issues). Actually, also the Metro Apps developed directly by MS in Windows 8 are all very basic and miss a lot of features.
Probably, is just that MS efforts to get the "three screens" is sucking all the energy away from the user level software. I just hope that they'll get it fast, so they can start working on these issues full time.
 

aprilcy

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You are probably right. I don't work in software development, but I can imagine a whole lot of the issues you are talking about.
But still, I look at what Nokia is doing with WP and I compare with MS: the first was (and still is) a company leaning towards bankruptcy, the second one is a revenue machine... Yet, Nokia ported its navigation software from Symbian to WP in few months, and has been regularly updating it since then, and along with it's developing a whole lot of really well crafted apps, while Microsoft struggles to give us a calendar with a weekly view.

What you say about "prioritizing" is also very wise... What comes to my mind about this is "did they really need to replace Zune with two syncing software that basically are a beta version? Couldn't they wait the next release for that without depriving us of a endless number of features?".

Anyway, again, your picture totally makes sense, and I can see the same "pattern" in a lot of other MS products: outlook.com still has the old Hotmail calendar (even if they would have a perfect metro-style calendar working in office365 and ready to be ported). Office Outlook 2013 has a whole lot of bugs (I can't sync my default calendar with outlook.com, can't send emails as alias and lot of other issues). Actually, also the Metro Apps developed directly by MS in Windows 8 are all very basic and miss a lot of features.
Probably, is just that MS efforts to get the "three screens" is sucking all the energy away from the user level software. I just hope that they'll get it fast, so they can start working on these issues full time.

I like your argument and the example of the calendar app. I think Msft should hire a few more market oriented people rather than pure tech product manager to balance a product team. Customer needs/satisfactions are same important as the tech advantages (which sometimes could be advanced in theory but useless in practice).
 

Nabkawe5

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Big programming companies don't operate like an app developer , they can't majorly change anything really fast because it'll effect so many things in the developing chain , for example , MS can't say i'll add ringer controls this seconds , because it has manuals,tutroials for developers/ then translated and localized manuals , APIs that need to be reconsidered in almost all apps. it'll basically ruin the OS to due so .
What they do is figure out ways to inject new features with the least amount of damage to previous apps , and most likely create a compatibility mode just to let old apps cope with the change, Think of how many updates Apps in Android get , its not always for nothing.

We hope MS can be a little faster doing that , but other than that from a technical point of view , we can't blame them.
 

a5cent

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I think Msft should hire a few more market oriented people rather than pure tech product manager to balance a product team. Customer needs/satisfactions are same important as the tech advantages (which sometimes could be advanced in theory but useless in practice).

You haven't understood a thing I've written. I'll try one more time. Software is often structured in layers. In the case of WP, the lowest layer is closest to the hardware, whereas the topmost layer represents the OS apps (calendar, messenger, etc.). There may be any number of layers in between.

To reuse my previous analogy, if WP were a house, imagine the top layer being the roof (user facing features and UI), and the bottom layer being the foundation (kernel). Yes, there are many layers/floors in between, but we'll ignore that. Now imagine you get commissioned to build that house. What do you start with? The foundation or the roof? Wanting to start with the roof obviously sounds quite ridiculous, but that is exactly what you are calling for in software terms.

If you've completed the house, then you are free to remodel any of the floors you like. You can even freely prioritize roof improvements over everything else if so desired. However, if you are building a brand new house, which is exactly what Microsoft did during this last WP8 development cycle, then you don't have that luxury. You can't just willy nilly dabble a little on the "consumer side" (the roof) and then dabble a little on the "tech side" (the foundation). The foundation (and all the floors in between), must be completed first.

The problem was simply that Microsoft needed to build a new house with a solid foundation, while most people wanted nothing but a reroofing. The problem has nothing to do with Microsoft having too few "market oriented people" like you suggest.

But still, I look at what Nokia is doing with WP and I compare with MS: the first was (and still is) a company leaning towards bankruptcy, the second one is a revenue machine... Yet, Nokia ported its navigation software from Symbian to WP in few months, and has been regularly updating it since then, and along with it's developing a whole lot of really well crafted apps, while Microsoft struggles to give us a calendar with a weekly view.

And do you remember how Nokia fared with Symbian? Do you remember that the main reason Nokia gave up on Symbian, was that they couldn't evolve it fast enough, despite having assigned roughly 6000 people to Symbian R&D?

Microsoft is now doing a majority of that really difficult software engineering work, which Nokia previously did themselves. This effort on Microsoft's part is what allows Nokia to do all those things you mentioned in a timely fashion!

Both companies want to make their customers happy, but Nokia has the freedom to devote almost all of their software engineering staff directly towards that goal. Microsoft is in a much more difficult situation, because they must worry about app compatibility (WP7 vs. WP8), security models, unified API's across W8, RT and WP, and literally hundreds of other things most users have no idea even exist. In this last iteration, Microsoft was simply forced to care primarily about those things which consumers don't. Unfortunately, there weren't any engineering resources left over (of around 500) to work on much else.
 

conanheath

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So basically, wp8 isn't finished. MS put out an unfinished product which is a mess and we have to suffer. I understood loud and clear. MS is writing checks their ass can't cash and Nokia is taking it on the chin.
 

Alex Rodriguez Jr.

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So basically, wp8 isn't finished. MS put out an unfinished product which is a mess and we have to suffer. I understood loud and clear. MS is writing checks their ass can't cash and Nokia is taking it on the chin.

I guess Samsung and Android have been pushing out unfinished devices for years, as the S4 just got features Nokia and Windows Phone have had for months, even years...
 

a5cent

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So basically, wp8 isn't finished. MS put out an unfinished product which is a mess and we have to suffer. I understood loud and clear. MS is writing checks their ass can't cash and Nokia is taking it on the chin.

Suffering due to WP8? I know a few war vets who would think you crazy. Other than that, yes, I absolutely agree that WP8 wasn't ready, but I also understand that MS' hand was being forced by market pressures. They really had no choice but to slap a version number on whatever they had ready and ship it.
 

rockstarzzz

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Suffering due to WP8? I know a few war vets who would think you crazy. Other than that, yes, I absolutely agree that WP8 wasn't ready, but I also understand that MS' hand was being forced by market pressures. They really had no choice but to slap a version number on whatever they had ready and ship it.

...and MS never releases finished products. It releases it, listens to users (almost) and then sends off various service packs/patches to make a sturdy OS.
 

a5cent

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...and MS never releases finished products. It releases it, listens to users (almost) and then sends off various service packs/patches to make a sturdy OS.

Never? I think W7 was extremely mature when it shipped, no?

On average, Microsoft's products are just as 'finished' as anyone else's are on shipping day. Microsoft just has the extra challenge of shipping their products to millions of tech experts and security researchers all over the world, whereas Apple ships their products primarily to consumers, the majority of which are technically illiterate. Apple rarely gets similarly sophisticated feedback, and even when they do, Apple won't get grilled by flat out ignoring it. No enterprise runs mission critical applications on Apple's products, so Apple can afford to ignore much of what Microsoft releases weekly updates and patches for. The same is true for Google.
Ultimately, nobody releases 'finished' software, because there is no such thing. That is why I speak of being 'ready', instead of being 'finished'. Companies can only choose the state of 'un-finished-ness' at which they wish to ship, and sometimes they can't even do that (WP8 is one example).
 

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