03-09-2015 02:54 PM
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  1. anon(8141431)'s Avatar
    Just pointing out that the 640XL's camera does not have OIS and is not pureview
    03-03-2015 10:40 AM
  2. Goosinurwife's Avatar
    anything is better then iPhone 6 main reason the iPhone 6 pumps put massive doses of radiation


    iPhone 6 plus SAR US 1.19 W/kg (head) 1.19 W/kg (body)
    Last edited by Goosinurwife; 03-03-2015 at 12:13 PM. Reason: added sar rating to prove im right
    03-03-2015 12:07 PM
  3. AndyCalling's Avatar
    I thought we were talking Apples and Lumias?!?



    For most situations, yes. Video calls don't really need more than a 1.2MP or 2MP camera. However, better quality selfies should get at least 5MP, with a max of 8MP. I'm not much of a selfie shooter (don't think I've ever done that), but my sister-in-laws and mother-in-law are. They have phones with 5MP front cameras and purchased them for that express purpose. You'd be surprised how many self-absorbed people will look for that.
    Yes, but what does one do with a 'selfie'? Such will be for screen display, surely not for print standard? Are we really planning selfies for 4K phone displays? I still say selfies at over 1080p are pointless, and at front camera sensor sizes will be WORSE QUALITY BY FAR THAN A 1080P IMAGE ANYWAY! Ye canna change the laws of physics, Captain. Heck, I suspect even a 1080p on a small front camera will struggle to look as good as a 720p image.

    Don't fall for the hype. Ask the chap behind the counter what the sensor size is and then compare to pixel count. Then invariably ask for a model with a less mental pixel count. If they don't understand, sigh and ask to speak with someone else.
    03-03-2015 12:16 PM
  4. fdalbor's Avatar
    As a long time 820 user I looked long and hard at the 830 and now the 640 and have decided to finally replace my 820. Processor wise they are all about the same (820 has same processor as 920/925/1020) so its a wash. Camera is probably better than the 8.7 on the 820 in both cases. Screen size is a big upgrade from 4.3 to 5.0 in both instances, plus higher resolution. 820 has wireless charging (which I don't use) so does 830 but not 640. 820 has NFC so does 830; but not 640. Have never used it once in two years. All have removeable batteries but the 820 is small at only 1650 compared to the others. 820 and 830 have duel band wifi, the 640 does not. 820 and 830 have camera buttons, 640 does not. 820 and 640 use micro sim, 830 uses nano ( I like to swap sims between my phones and use a different phone alll the time). And then the cost, 820 was 400$ when I bought it (right after they came out), 830 was 499$ and the 640 is under 200$. I think the 640 is a great buy and will do to hold me over until something really better comes along. I bought a Moto G lte for the same reason. The 830 is a very good phone; but it is not worth more than double the price of the 640. But then I might just wait and see how the price of the 830 drops when the 640/640XL drops into the market. Got a can't lose situation.
    snowmutt and HeyCori like this.
    03-03-2015 02:22 PM
  5. AndyCalling's Avatar
    I went from my 820 to a 930. An excellent upgrade that really feels like the only non-phablet upgrade option from the 820 right now. The 640 sounds like an ace phone, but I couldn't lose amoled and the graphics power of the 820. It would still feel like a downgrade. So long as 32gig is fine (probably will be, but usb otg would be a comfort) the 930 feels like a flagship upgrade in every way (I really don't miss glance as I thought I would).
    03-03-2015 02:58 PM
  6. mase123987's Avatar
    He does have *some* merit though.

    Equals

    1. Both are same size.
    2. Same weight.
    3. Same screen type.
    4. Same screen to body ratio.
    5. Same RAM.
    6. Same storage (with microSD on XL).
    7. Almost same battery size.
    8. Same talk time.
    9. LTE cat 4 on both.
    10. Bluetooth 4.0 on both.

    1. iPhone is thinner
    2.True
    3. What does this mean? iPhone screen will be A LOT better in every way possible.
    4. Don't see how this matters. Also, not taking the time to see if it is true.
    5. Same amount. Unsure of type or speed of the memory in each phone.
    6. Internal storage is always better. Plus, more cost to get a SD card.
    7. Battery size is important but every phone uses the battery differently. Capabilities with the battery is more important.
    8. Who knows. The fact is most people doesn't use their phone primarily to talk anymore.
    9. Not a big deal.
    10. Not a big deal.

    Only iPhone hardware advantages I see are:

    1. iPhone has much higher ppi,
    2. fingerprint thingy and a few extra sensors
    3. ...and tons of quality apps.

    1. Everything about the screen is a lot better.
    2. TouchID actually works REALLY well.
    3. Kind of a big deal.


    640XL has upper hand for:
    1. 13 MP camera (8 in iPhone),
    2. 5 MP front facing (1.2 in iPhone),
    3. Much higher talk time
    4. Much higher standby time
    5. Windows Phone 8.1 Update 2 ready for Windows 10 - dream about that on iPhone ;)
    6. Quad core processor (dual core in iPhone)
    1. More megapixels does not equal better. We all know the iPhone has a better camera.
    2. Don't know enough about this.
    3. You said they were equal up top...
    4. iPhone has more power demanding parts. Also, do you really need more than 10 days of standby? At what point does it not matter. This won't be an emergency phone you just throw in the glove compartment.
    5.Someone could say the same about iOS
    ​6. iPhone has A LOT better processor. Not even close.
    03-03-2015 07:05 PM
  7. todd7900's Avatar
    Lots of good points, Many I am struggling with as to whether or not to get a 640 to tied me over until the flagship comes out (current 920).
    Only quibble is the 640 does have NFC. Microsoft Lumia 640 LTE vs. Nokia Lumia 920 - GSMArena.com
    03-03-2015 08:42 PM
  8. Goosinurwife's Avatar
    How is the 640 XL an upgrade to the 920?

    --The SoC in the 640 XL is inferior to the 920's.
    --The display is 1.2" larger, yet the resolution is lower.
    --The camera is of a higher resolution, but lacks OIS.
    --The phone has microSD support, but it has one-fourth of the on-board storage.
    --No wireless charging was mentioned, to my recollection.
    I just saw the specs to the 920 and its an outdated dualcore the cpu in this 640 is an updated quadcore so it wins by default
    03-03-2015 10:47 PM
  9. rhapdog's Avatar
    Yes, but what does one do with a 'selfie'? Such will be for screen display, surely not for print standard? Are we really planning selfies for 4K phone displays? I still say selfies at over 1080p are pointless, and at front camera sensor sizes will be WORSE QUALITY BY FAR THAN A 1080P IMAGE ANYWAY! Ye canna change the laws of physics, Captain. Heck, I suspect even a 1080p on a small front camera will struggle to look as good as a 720p image.
    Yeah, my sister-in-law does prints fairly often, as does my mother-in-law. Put granddaughter or niece in lap, snap a selfie, print it. Do they understand why the quality isn't as good? Um... no. Do they care? They still want to see 5MP in the specs.

    It's called "Marketing" and, unfortunately, has little to do with realistic laws of physics. People see 5MP and automatically say, "Ooh, that looks so much nicer than my 2MP." It's a placebo.

    You brought up laws of physics, so I'll quote a great scientist to explain why this marketing ploy works.

    There are two things that are infinite. The universe and human stupidity, and I'm not positive about the universe.
    Just go with it. The price won't be affected much unless they manage to increase sensor size somehow, which would affect the display real estate, which would then affect sales. I wouldn't worry too much.

    I'm just glad I don't do selfies.
    snowmutt likes this.
    03-03-2015 11:00 PM
  10. todd7900's Avatar
    You have to look at more than the number of cores. After checking a number of sites it seems the 920 processor is at least as good if not better than the 640.
    snowmutt likes this.
    03-03-2015 11:00 PM
  11. snowmutt's Avatar
    Does everyone remember back when Android was on dual core processors and all the new WP7's were still coming out still packing single core? We Windows fans were very sure to point out that the cores did not matter because WP7 was designed to run on less processing power. When Android starting pumping out quad-cores and our first wave of WP8 were dual core, we said the same thing.

    I am not interested in slamming the iPhone 6/6+ for it's processor. Or even comparing it. There are a ton of reasons I am not an Apple owner, but I believe in the credit where credit is due- I ain't ever met a laggy iPhone, except older ones after iOS updates. Man, those kill older gen iPhones.

    As for the cameras, that has been covered. I am willing to bet 2 things:

    1) The cameras on the 640/640 XL will be freaking good for their price point.
    2) They will not hold a candle to any of the premium devices such as the Lumia 1520, L930, Note 4, or the iPhone.

    These are going to be GREAT devices at amazing prices. But neither are Hero Lumia material.
    mark233, Guytronic, tgp and 2 others like this.
    03-04-2015 05:55 AM
  12. rhapdog's Avatar
    These are going to be GREAT devices at amazing prices. But neither are Hero Lumia material.
    Agree with everything you said.

    I did notice, however, that the sensor size on the 640 XL and the iPhone 6 Plus is actually the same, which may mean the camera "may" be able to produce same quality photos. However, with a combination of hardware/software OIS on the iPhone, the iPhone would have to get the nod. I would not be able to make a judgement without comparing photos of the same subject under the same conditions. Anyone making judgements without doing so is just being unrealistic.

    The 640 and 640 XL doesn't have PureView, but they do have Zeiss Optics. The optics are the same, both by Carl Zeiss. The difference is in pixel density on the sensor and optical zoom capabilities. If you aren't needing to do a 3X optical zoom, then you're pictures aren't going to be noticeably different in almost every situation. I would be interested to see a compare once these phones are out. PureView works by taking a larger MP picture, then interpolating to scale it down to the actual MP that is the target of the stated specifications.
    snowmutt likes this.
    03-04-2015 11:43 AM
  13. AndyCalling's Avatar
    Yes, but if the sensor size is the same as the iPhone but it over does the pixel count the resultant pictures will be far better on the iPhone. The annoying thing being that it is not quality of components holding the camera back but crazy design choices by MS. Such is a clue that the phone has been designed by the MS marketing team and not by their technical guys. Though it generally sounds good, if that kind of dodgy thinking has affected other areas of the design... how can we trust the rest of the build?
    03-04-2015 11:51 AM
  14. squire777's Avatar
    Yes, but if the sensor size is the same as the iPhone but it over does the pixel count the resultant pictures will be far better on the iPhone.
    There is no proof of this. In theory packing in too many megapixels onto a sensor negatively affects the image quality, but we don't know what the upper limits for these sensors are. The sensors also being different adds another level of differentiation. For all we know the additional megapixels on the XL will make the pictures better than on an iPhone.

    There are also many other factors that affect image quality such as the quality of the glass in the lens, the software in the camera etc.
    03-04-2015 12:14 PM
  15. squire777's Avatar
    This phone (and the 640) have had a surprisingly positive reaction from the tech media and the general tech loving population which is a good sign. The price point vs the features is great and a lot of people are saying they might pick one up to use on the side. Let's just hope MS does a good job of making them widely available.
    03-04-2015 12:17 PM
  16. AndyCalling's Avatar
    There is no proof of this. In theory packing in too many megapixels onto a sensor negatively affects the image quality, but we don't know what the upper limits for these sensors are. The sensors also being different adds another level of differentiation. For all we know the additional megapixels on the XL will make the pictures better than on an iPhone.

    There are also many other factors that affect image quality such as the quality of the glass in the lens, the software in the camera etc.
    Though I cannot give you the figures for these particular sensors, we can judge pretty well by the size. Assuming that they are both quality (though very small) sensors then we can be pretty sure of the results. True, if 13mp is not pushing the envelope it may be good, but I think we all know in our hearts that figure is way too big even if we still hope otherwise. If it is fine, then to double it would be pushing it to the edge. Are we really thinking that this sensor is capable of 26mp if MS pushed it? I very much doubt it, too much willing suspension of disbelief needed for that.

    If this has pixel doubling then fine (though over engineered). We'll all be taking 6.5mp images with it in that case. Otherwise the idea that 13mp on that sensor is a good design choice will need some evidence to become cogent. I think the 640 8mp camera stands a better chance.

    Even if the sensor does work well, drop the light levels and the picture quality will go down (physics). If each pixel were larger and captured more light the quality would reduce less (physics again). This is true for every digital camera available. Therefore, any sensor gets better in low light if you reduce the MP count, however good it is. This same effect affects dynamic range negatively in bright conditions. Why, then, bother with sensors over 8mp? How many people really produce high quality posters with their camera phone? I've never met even one.

    Also we can be pretty damn sure the 5mp front camera is over gunned as it is miniscule. Since the same people made that decision, we can see the sort of people we are dealing with and reasonably extrapolate.
    Last edited by AndyCalling; 03-04-2015 at 12:54 PM.
    03-04-2015 12:40 PM
  17. squire777's Avatar
    But why are we arbitrarily choosing 8MP as the limit for good pictures? Just because the iPhone has that many? Again most of your post is just full of assumptions and conjecture based on the idea that you are particularly not fond of the 13MP number.

    If increasing MP count was as bad as you say it was then camera manufactures would have stopped increasing MP count on their newer iterations of their cameras a long time ago. Look at most 4/3 and APS-C cameras with similar sensors but increased MP counts - the newer generations tend to have better IQ.

    I should just say that we should wait for actual samples before we declare a particular camera to be good or bad. Arguing over specs without looking at actual pictures is a reason why I stopped frequenting photography forums.
    03-04-2015 01:59 PM
  18. rhapdog's Avatar
    Even if the sensor does work well, drop the light levels and the picture quality will go down (physics). If each pixel were larger and captured more light the quality would reduce less (physics again). This is true for every digital camera available. Therefore, any sensor gets better in low light if you reduce the MP count, however good it is.
    That is incorrect. Aperture is what will affect the quality when light levels go down. f2.4 setting on the iPhone will allow great photos in low light, it isn't the pixel size on the sensor. It's how much light is allowed to get to the sensor. The Lumia 640 XL has f2.0, which will allow more light in low light than the iPhone, so it trumps iPhone there in low light situations. (I've been researching both since early this morning.)

    Also, the 640 XL has 4x Optical Zoom from Carl Zeiss. Do you know how this works? To get a 3X optical zoom for 5MP requires a 41MP sensor. That means the pixel count on this thing is probably insane. No, bigger pixels don't make a better picture. Smaller ones do. The problem with a cheap 16MP camera is that it "interpolates" to get the 16MP scaled up from 5MP, so you've got a lot of graininess in the picture.

    To obtain an optical zoom, Zeiss incorporates a special method to obtain it. The target specs state 13MP, but to obtain a good zoom, Zeiss installs a much higher pixel density sensor in order to achieve this goal. This prevents loss of light to the sensor by using a true optical zoom.

    Using a much higher pixel density sensor, Zeiss takes multiple pixels and collates them together into one superpixel. This gives the advantage of better light absorption and better quality photos.

    Make no mistake, this camera is not going to be a slouch. Not only will this sensor allow for better pictures, but also allow for better zoom quality.

    Yeah, the 1020 camera will outperform due to its 1/2" sensor size, but that's the only camera phone that should outperform it after the research I've done from what I can tell. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so. Others may match it, but this is the same top of the line camera going into higher end flagships. What is PureView? It is a NAME copyrighted by Nokia. As Microsoft is now producing the phones, they won't be able to use that name on future phones. It's all Zeiss optics, though. If you see Zeiss Optics and Optical/Digital Zoom, it's the same technology as PureView, which is also the same technology used in iPhone 6 by another name.

    Do a bit of research, you will see this is true. I can't wait to see it in action.
    03-04-2015 02:51 PM
  19. Stefan Holder's Avatar
    Come to think of it... up until the leaked specs were rumored to be that of the L1320 successor (1330) I was ok with the device and even dabbled with the thought of picking one up when it launched. Now that rumored device is the L640XL, that name alone changed my mind. funny how fickle and important "branding" can be huh.
    snowmutt likes this.
    03-05-2015 07:43 AM
  20. AndyCalling's Avatar
    It is about both how much light can get to the sensor AND about how much of that light the sensor can pick up and make use of. Try a full sized camera with a large sensor and you will see what I mean. That said, interesting stuff about the sensor in this phone. Sounds really quite good. I still maintain that however great it is, a lower pixel density would make it even better. Wish my 930 had an 8mp sensor (with size, quality and all other sensor aspects remaining the same).
    03-05-2015 07:52 AM
  21. rhapdog's Avatar
    It is about both how much light can get to the sensor AND about how much of that light the sensor can pick up and make use of. Try a full sized camera with a large sensor and you will see what I mean. That said, interesting stuff about the sensor in this phone. Sounds really quite good. I still maintain that however great it is, a lower pixel density would make it even better. Wish my 930 had an 8mp sensor (with size, quality and all other sensor aspects remaining the same).
    I have tried the full sized DSLR cameras. Would love to have one for professional grade photography. That wasn't the point though. We were comparing it to the iPhone 6+ and 1520, which is the same size sensor. Since the sensor size is the same, and since it uses the smaller pixel density but utilizes several pixels together to make one super pixel, the effect will be the same as if it were a smaller density. Carl Zeiss has come a long way with the super pixel technology, and I'm looking forward to seeing this.

    If you change the settings in the camera app to 8MP or 5MP, then the super pixels will be even larger, giving the effect of having a lower pixel density. That's the way these Carl Zeiss optics work in these things. It will still use the full sensor, unlike the way it works on non-Zeiss Optics cameras, which go to smaller MP sizes by using a smaller area of the sensor.
    snowmutt likes this.
    03-05-2015 10:21 AM
  22. snowmutt's Avatar
    Come to think of it... up until the leaked specs were rumored to be that of the L1320 successor (1330) I was ok with the device and even dabbled with the thought of picking one up when it launched. Now that rumored device is the L640XL, that name alone changed my mind. funny how fickle and important "branding" can be huh.
    Wow, is that true.

    I have never- ever- really made that simple connection either. The numbering system for Lumia's- which I think most of us accept but would not shed one tear if it went away- automatically cross devices off our lists even before we give them a chance. If they used names of insects instead, we would have given the 640 XL a chance.

    Imagine: We now present- The Lumia Locust!! A swarm of of top end tech!!

    We now present- the Lumia Slug!! Leaves the competition in it's slime trail!!

    We now present- The Lumia Blowfly!!! Wait, why is everyone laughing?
    03-05-2015 03:16 PM
  23. rhapdog's Avatar
    Wow, is that true.

    I have never- ever- really made that simple connection either. The numbering system for Lumia's- which I think most of us accept but would not shed one tear if it went away- automatically cross devices off our lists even before we give them a chance. If they used names of insects instead, we would have given the 640 XL a chance.

    Imagine: We now present- The Lumia Locust!! A swarm of of top end tech!!

    We now present- the Lumia Slug!! Leaves the competition in it's slime trail!!

    We now present- The Lumia Blowfly!!! Wait, why is everyone laughing?
    No, no, no... those are all wrong. Slugs are slow and ugly. I don't want an ugly, slow phone.

    iPhone's have a simple naming scheme. iPhone 6 came after 5 which came after 4, etc.

    Other's name after astrological phenomenon, such as Nexus or Galaxy, which also sound cool.

    Sorry, we need to do away with 3 and 4 digit numbering schemes. That's a hold-over from Nokia, and we need to make it uniquely Microsoft.

    Microsoft needs to come up with 4 categories, and 4 categories only. No more of this 50+ models. If you must have a different variant for different countries because of bands, then keep the same name, and notate it as a country variant.

    4 Categories, Budget, Mid-range, and Flagship are the 3 primary. The Flagship should have the hottest camera phone on the planet, period. The fourth category should have the mid-range model using the flagship camera, so that budget minded people wanting great pictures can get in on the action. That one should have a name that reflects it is for camera enthusiasts.

    For each of these 4 categories, the standard model would be a 5" phone. Then designate an lower case "s" after the name for "small", and make a 4.5". Then have a 5.7" with an uppercase "XL" after the name with higher resolution. It would be a lot less confusion, and you wouldn't need so many numbers that confuse the public. The names of the 4 categories should indicate what level they are at.

    Okay, these aren't my suggested names, just pulling a few names out of my .... er... hat (and I don't even own a hat) as examples.
    Lumia Dirt for "budget" (This one is a horrendous name, by the way.)
    Lumia Sky for Mid-range.
    Lumia Universe for the Flagship. Camera Button Required.
    Lumia Canvas for the midrange hardware with flagship camera. Camera Button Required.

    Each of these can have an "s" or "XL" after the name to denote size. Each year, they would be replaced by an incremental number like the iPhone does.

    Release these in 2016, then in 2017 release Lumia Universe 2 XL, etc.

    I for one would go for the midrange hardware with a flagship camera. I imagine a lot of people would.

    Perhaps others could come up with better names. I know someone is bound to, because these aren't really that great. One of them is just Dirt.

    Oh, maybe name the low-end "Lumia Eco" and use more recycled materials in it or something. Could be economical and ecological at the same time.
    snowmutt, Stefan Holder and MikeSo like this.
    03-05-2015 04:37 PM
  24. snowmutt's Avatar
    Okay, these aren't my suggested names, just pulling a few names out of my .... er... hat (and I don't even own a hat) as examples.
    Lumia Dirt for "budget" (This one is a horrendous name, by the way.)
    Lumia Sky for Mid-range.
    Lumia Universe for the Flagship. Camera Button Required.
    Lumia Canvas for the midrange hardware with flagship camera. Camera Button Required.
    So.... not into the lumia insect ranges? You sure??

    Lumia Gnat- low end/entry level.

    Lumia Army Ant- Mid range.

    Lumia Dragonfly- Premium, top shelf. (Besides, dragonflies eat other bugs. They are my heroes.)

    Lumia Blowfly- specialty devices like Big Boned Phones (I hate the term Phablet) and L1020 succesor. (I just like saying "Blowfly.)

    Where is your sense of nature, rhapdog???
    mark233 likes this.
    03-05-2015 04:58 PM
  25. rhapdog's Avatar
    Where is your sense of nature, rhapdog???
    Hey! Dirt is nature! Sky is nature!

    Okay, how about...

    Lumia Rock (Budget)
    Lumia Hill (midrange)
    Lumia Mountain (flagship)

    Great thing about a rock, it's cheap enough to throw at someone when you get mad at them. Could be a selling point.
    03-06-2015 09:36 AM
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