Might as Well Start the Discussion...

[snowmutt]

Does everyone remember back when Android was on dual core processors and all the new WP7's were still coming out still packing single core? We Windows fans were very sure to point out that the cores did not matter because WP7 was designed to run on less processing power. When Android starting pumping out quad-cores and our first wave of WP8 were dual core, we said the same thing.

I am not interested in slamming the iPhone 6/6+ for it's processor. Or even comparing it. There are a ton of reasons I am not an Apple owner, but I believe in the credit where credit is due- I ain't ever met a laggy iPhone, except older ones after iOS updates. Man, those kill older gen iPhones.

As for the cameras, that has been covered. I am willing to bet 2 things:

1) The cameras on the 640/640 XL will be freaking good for their price point.
2) They will not hold a candle to any of the premium devices such as the Lumia 1520, L930, Note 4, or the iPhone.

These are going to be GREAT devices at amazing prices. But neither are Hero Lumia material.

 

[rhapdog]

These are going to be GREAT devices at amazing prices. But neither are Hero Lumia material.

Agree with everything you said.

I did notice, however, that the sensor size on the 640 XL and the iPhone 6 Plus is actually the same, which may mean the camera "may" be able to produce same quality photos. However, with a combination of hardware/software OIS on the iPhone, the iPhone would have to get the nod. I would not be able to make a judgement without comparing photos of the same subject under the same conditions. Anyone making judgements without doing so is just being unrealistic.

The 640 and 640 XL doesn't have PureView, but they do have Zeiss Optics. The optics are the same, both by Carl Zeiss. The difference is in pixel density on the sensor and optical zoom capabilities. If you aren't needing to do a 3X optical zoom, then you're pictures aren't going to be noticeably different in almost every situation. I would be interested to see a compare once these phones are out. PureView works by taking a larger MP picture, then interpolating to scale it down to the actual MP that is the target of the stated specifications.

 

[AndyCalling]

Yes, but if the sensor size is the same as the iPhone but it over does the pixel count the resultant pictures will be far better on the iPhone. The annoying thing being that it is not quality of components holding the camera back but crazy design choices by MS. Such is a clue that the phone has been designed by the MS marketing team and not by their technical guys. Though it generally sounds good, if that kind of dodgy thinking has affected other areas of the design... how can we trust the rest of the build?

 

[squire777]

Yes, but if the sensor size is the same as the iPhone but it over does the pixel count the resultant pictures will be far better on the iPhone.

There is no proof of this. In theory packing in too many megapixels onto a sensor negatively affects the image quality, but we don't know what the upper limits for these sensors are. The sensors also being different adds another level of differentiation. For all we know the additional megapixels on the XL will make the pictures better than on an iPhone.

There are also many other factors that affect image quality such as the quality of the glass in the lens, the software in the camera etc.

 

[squire777]

This phone (and the 640) have had a surprisingly positive reaction from the tech media and the general tech loving population which is a good sign. The price point vs the features is great and a lot of people are saying they might pick one up to use on the side. Let's just hope MS does a good job of making them widely available.

 

[AndyCalling]

There is no proof of this. In theory packing in too many megapixels onto a sensor negatively affects the image quality, but we don't know what the upper limits for these sensors are. The sensors also being different adds another level of differentiation. For all we know the additional megapixels on the XL will make the pictures better than on an iPhone.

There are also many other factors that affect image quality such as the quality of the glass in the lens, the software in the camera etc.

Though I cannot give you the figures for these particular sensors, we can judge pretty well by the size. Assuming that they are both quality (though very small) sensors then we can be pretty sure of the results. True, if 13mp is not pushing the envelope it may be good, but I think we all know in our hearts that figure is way too big even if we still hope otherwise. If it is fine, then to double it would be pushing it to the edge. Are we really thinking that this sensor is capable of 26mp if MS pushed it? I very much doubt it, too much willing suspension of disbelief needed for that.

If this has pixel doubling then fine (though over engineered). We'll all be taking 6.5mp images with it in that case. Otherwise the idea that 13mp on that sensor is a good design choice will need some evidence to become cogent. I think the 640 8mp camera stands a better chance.

Even if the sensor does work well, drop the light levels and the picture quality will go down (physics). If each pixel were larger and captured more light the quality would reduce less (physics again). This is true for every digital camera available. Therefore, any sensor gets better in low light if you reduce the MP count, however good it is. This same effect affects dynamic range negatively in bright conditions. Why, then, bother with sensors over 8mp? How many people really produce high quality posters with their camera phone? I've never met even one.

Also we can be pretty damn sure the 5mp front camera is over gunned as it is miniscule. Since the same people made that decision, we can see the sort of people we are dealing with and reasonably extrapolate.

 

[squire777]

But why are we arbitrarily choosing 8MP as the limit for good pictures? Just because the iPhone has that many? Again most of your post is just full of assumptions and conjecture based on the idea that you are particularly not fond of the 13MP number.

If increasing MP count was as bad as you say it was then camera manufactures would have stopped increasing MP count on their newer iterations of their cameras a long time ago. Look at most 4/3 and APS-C cameras with similar sensors but increased MP counts - the newer generations tend to have better IQ.

I should just say that we should wait for actual samples before we declare a particular camera to be good or bad. Arguing over specs without looking at actual pictures is a reason why I stopped frequenting photography forums.

 

[rhapdog]

Even if the sensor does work well, drop the light levels and the picture quality will go down (physics). If each pixel were larger and captured more light the quality would reduce less (physics again). This is true for every digital camera available. Therefore, any sensor gets better in low light if you reduce the MP count, however good it is.

That is incorrect. Aperture is what will affect the quality when light levels go down. f2.4 setting on the iPhone will allow great photos in low light, it isn't the pixel size on the sensor. It's how much light is allowed to get to the sensor. The Lumia 640 XL has f2.0, which will allow more light in low light than the iPhone, so it trumps iPhone there in low light situations. (I've been researching both since early this morning.)

Also, the 640 XL has 4x Optical Zoom from Carl Zeiss. Do you know how this works? To get a 3X optical zoom for 5MP requires a 41MP sensor. That means the pixel count on this thing is probably insane. No, bigger pixels don't make a better picture. Smaller ones do. The problem with a cheap 16MP camera is that it "interpolates" to get the 16MP scaled up from 5MP, so you've got a lot of graininess in the picture.

To obtain an optical zoom, Zeiss incorporates a special method to obtain it. The target specs state 13MP, but to obtain a good zoom, Zeiss installs a much higher pixel density sensor in order to achieve this goal. This prevents loss of light to the sensor by using a true optical zoom.

Using a much higher pixel density sensor, Zeiss takes multiple pixels and collates them together into one superpixel. This gives the advantage of better light absorption and better quality photos.

Make no mistake, this camera is not going to be a slouch. Not only will this sensor allow for better pictures, but also allow for better zoom quality.

Yeah, the 1020 camera will outperform due to its 1/2" sensor size, but that's the only camera phone that should outperform it after the research I've done from what I can tell. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so. Others may match it, but this is the same top of the line camera going into higher end flagships. What is PureView? It is a NAME copyrighted by Nokia. As Microsoft is now producing the phones, they won't be able to use that name on future phones. It's all Zeiss optics, though. If you see Zeiss Optics and Optical/Digital Zoom, it's the same technology as PureView, which is also the same technology used in iPhone 6 by another name.

Do a bit of research, you will see this is true. I can't wait to see it in action.

 

[Stefan Holder]

Come to think of it... up until the leaked specs were rumored to be that of the L1320 successor (1330) I was ok with the device and even dabbled with the thought of picking one up when it launched. Now that rumored device is the L640XL, that name alone changed my mind. funny how fickle and important "branding" can be huh.

 

[AndyCalling]

It is about both how much light can get to the sensor AND about how much of that light the sensor can pick up and make use of. Try a full sized camera with a large sensor and you will see what I mean. That said, interesting stuff about the sensor in this phone. Sounds really quite good. I still maintain that however great it is, a lower pixel density would make it even better. Wish my 930 had an 8mp sensor (with size, quality and all other sensor aspects remaining the same).

 

[rhapdog]

It is about both how much light can get to the sensor AND about how much of that light the sensor can pick up and make use of. Try a full sized camera with a large sensor and you will see what I mean. That said, interesting stuff about the sensor in this phone. Sounds really quite good. I still maintain that however great it is, a lower pixel density would make it even better. Wish my 930 had an 8mp sensor (with size, quality and all other sensor aspects remaining the same).

I have tried the full sized DSLR cameras. Would love to have one for professional grade photography. That wasn't the point though. We were comparing it to the iPhone 6+ and 1520, which is the same size sensor. Since the sensor size is the same, and since it uses the smaller pixel density but utilizes several pixels together to make one super pixel, the effect will be the same as if it were a smaller density. Carl Zeiss has come a long way with the super pixel technology, and I'm looking forward to seeing this.

If you change the settings in the camera app to 8MP or 5MP, then the super pixels will be even larger, giving the effect of having a lower pixel density. That's the way these Carl Zeiss optics work in these things. It will still use the full sensor, unlike the way it works on non-Zeiss Optics cameras, which go to smaller MP sizes by using a smaller area of the sensor.

 

[snowmutt]

Come to think of it... up until the leaked specs were rumored to be that of the L1320 successor (1330) I was ok with the device and even dabbled with the thought of picking one up when it launched. Now that rumored device is the L640XL, that name alone changed my mind. funny how fickle and important "branding" can be huh.

Wow, is that true.

I have never- ever- really made that simple connection either. The numbering system for Lumia's- which I think most of us accept but would not shed one tear if it went away- automatically cross devices off our lists even before we give them a chance. If they used names of insects instead, we would have given the 640 XL a chance.

Imagine: We now present- The Lumia Locust!! A swarm of of top end tech!!

We now present- the Lumia Slug!! Leaves the competition in it's slime trail!!

We now present- The Lumia Blowfly!!! Wait, why is everyone laughing?

 

[rhapdog]

Wow, is that true.

I have never- ever- really made that simple connection either. The numbering system for Lumia's- which I think most of us accept but would not shed one tear if it went away- automatically cross devices off our lists even before we give them a chance. If they used names of insects instead, we would have given the 640 XL a chance.

Imagine: We now present- The Lumia Locust!! A swarm of of top end tech!!

We now present- the Lumia Slug!! Leaves the competition in it's slime trail!!

We now present- The Lumia Blowfly!!! Wait, why is everyone laughing?

No, no, no... those are all wrong. Slugs are slow and ugly. I don't want an ugly, slow phone.

iPhone's have a simple naming scheme. iPhone 6 came after 5 which came after 4, etc.

Other's name after astrological phenomenon, such as Nexus or Galaxy, which also sound cool.

Sorry, we need to do away with 3 and 4 digit numbering schemes. That's a hold-over from Nokia, and we need to make it uniquely Microsoft.

Microsoft needs to come up with 4 categories, and 4 categories only. No more of this 50+ models. If you must have a different variant for different countries because of bands, then keep the same name, and notate it as a country variant.

4 Categories, Budget, Mid-range, and Flagship are the 3 primary. The Flagship should have the hottest camera phone on the planet, period. The fourth category should have the mid-range model using the flagship camera, so that budget minded people wanting great pictures can get in on the action. That one should have a name that reflects it is for camera enthusiasts.

For each of these 4 categories, the standard model would be a 5" phone. Then designate an lower case "s" after the name for "small", and make a 4.5". Then have a 5.7" with an uppercase "XL" after the name with higher resolution. It would be a lot less confusion, and you wouldn't need so many numbers that confuse the public. The names of the 4 categories should indicate what level they are at.

Okay, these aren't my suggested names, just pulling a few names out of my .... er... hat (and I don't even own a hat) as examples.
Lumia Dirt for "budget" (This one is a horrendous name, by the way.)
Lumia Sky for Mid-range.
Lumia Universe for the Flagship. Camera Button Required.
Lumia Canvas for the midrange hardware with flagship camera. Camera Button Required.

Each of these can have an "s" or "XL" after the name to denote size. Each year, they would be replaced by an incremental number like the iPhone does.

Release these in 2016, then in 2017 release Lumia Universe 2 XL, etc.

I for one would go for the midrange hardware with a flagship camera. I imagine a lot of people would.

Perhaps others could come up with better names. I know someone is bound to, because these aren't really that great. One of them is just Dirt.

Oh, maybe name the low-end "Lumia Eco" and use more recycled materials in it or something. Could be economical and ecological at the same time.

 

[snowmutt]

Okay, these aren't my suggested names, just pulling a few names out of my .... er... hat (and I don't even own a hat) as examples.
Lumia Dirt for "budget" (This one is a horrendous name, by the way.)
Lumia Sky for Mid-range.
Lumia Universe for the Flagship. Camera Button Required.
Lumia Canvas for the midrange hardware with flagship camera. Camera Button Required.

So.... not into the lumia insect ranges? You sure??

Lumia Gnat- low end/entry level.

Lumia Army Ant- Mid range.

Lumia Dragonfly- Premium, top shelf. (Besides, dragonflies eat other bugs. They are my heroes.)

Lumia Blowfly- specialty devices like Big Boned Phones (I hate the term Phablet) and L1020 succesor. (I just like saying "Blowfly.)

Where is your sense of nature, rhapdog??? :grincry:

 

[rhapdog]

Where is your sense of nature, rhapdog???

Hey! Dirt is nature! Sky is nature!

Okay, how about...

Lumia Rock (Budget)
Lumia Hill (midrange)
Lumia Mountain (flagship)

Great thing about a rock, it's cheap enough to throw at someone when you get mad at them. Could be a selling point.

 

[Kanishka]

the 920 vs 830 vs 640XL argument in terms of image quality and snappiness won't be settled until there is a proper comparison done.
aside from the megapixel/OIS debate, we will see how the images come out when the 640xl is available.

I will say that I am just itching to replace my ever slowing 920.
imo, the 640xl could be the perfect travel phone IF it takes detailed pictures.

 

[Shawn Magm]

Incredible that the 820 is still a relevant and excellent phone despite coming out almost 2 1/2 years ago. I bought mine used last May for about $65. I still love mine. I used it as a primary phone a little bit, but now as my media device and backup phone. I am envious of the 5.7" display on the 640 XL, and greater battery life. However, I'd miss the AMOLED and physical camera button. I'm tempted by the 640 XL, but may hold out as the prices will surely come down, and there will be some on the secondary market.

 

[sam1902]

Just bought my 830 two days ago, its going back.

Can't wait to grab a 640XL!

I Remember you , you started a channel with a giveway and then suddenly disappeared whats the matter?

 

[ajayden]

Comparison below between Lumia 640XL and iPhone 6 plus and I have highlighted the differences.

Finger Print Sensor : iPhone 6 Plus has finger print sensor. Lumia 640XL does not have finger print sensor.

Display : In the area of display, iPhone has a higher PPI and will definitely have better display than 640XL.

Processor : However iPhone 6 Plus runs on a 1.2 GHz dual core processor compared to the 1.2 GHz quad core processor on 640XL.

Memory Card Slot : iPhone does not have a card slot but compensates with 16/64/128 GB variant. However the Lumia 640XL has internal memory of 8GB and a card slot expandable to 128GB. Therefore total of 136GB.

Rear Camera : iPhone 6 Plus has an 8MP camera with OIS whereas Lumia 640XL has a 13MP camera. However the sensors on both the phones are the same. Therefore both can produce outstanding pictures.

Front Camera : Iphone 6 Plus has 1.2MP camera capable of 720P whereas Lumia 640XL has 5MP camera capable of 1080P. Today people take selfies everywhere. Instagram definitely shows us that people like to take more selfies and selfie videos.

DLNA : Lumia 640XL supports DLNA out of the box. iPhone 6 plus needs extra gadgets (extra cost) and software to do the same. For photographers and marketing guys this is a great feature for presentation.

NFC : iPhone 6 Plus uses NFC for Apple pay only. Lumia 640 XL comes with NFC to exchange files, photos, contacts etc.

FM radio : Available on 640XL and not available on iPhone 6 Plus.

Both phones have lots of similarities in terms specifications but some of the specifications as mentioned above stands out.

 

[MikeSo]

Comparison below between Lumia 640XL and iPhone 6 plus and I have highlighted the differences.

Finger Print Sensor : iPhone 6 Plus has finger print sensor. Lumia 640XL does not have finger print sensor.

Display : In the area of display, iPhone has a higher PPI and will definitely have better display than 640XL.

Processor : However iPhone 6 Plus runs on a 1.2 GHz dual core processor compared to the 1.2 GHz quad core processor on 640XL.

Memory Card Slot : iPhone does not have a card slot but compensates with 16/64/128 GB variant. However the Lumia 640XL has internal memory of 8GB and a card slot expandable to 128GB. Therefore total of 136GB.

Rear Camera : iPhone 6 Plus has an 8MP camera with OIS whereas Lumia 640XL has a 13MP camera. However the sensors on both the phones are the same. Therefore both can produce outstanding pictures.

Front Camera : Iphone 6 Plus has 1.2MP camera capable of 720P whereas Lumia 640XL has 5MP camera capable of 1080P. Today people take selfies everywhere. Instagram definitely shows us that people like to take more selfies and selfie videos.

DLNA : Lumia 640XL supports DLNA out of the box. iPhone 6 plus needs extra gadgets (extra cost) and software to do the same. For photographers and marketing guys this is a great feature for presentation.

NFC : iPhone 6 Plus uses NFC for Apple pay only. Lumia 640 XL comes with NFC to exchange files, photos, contacts etc.

FM radio : Available on 640XL and not available on iPhone 6 Plus.

Both phones have lots of similarities in terms specifications but some of the specifications as mentioned above stands out.

View attachment 99335

You cannot seriously believe that the Snapdragon 400 is better than the A8. I don't know why people are so adamant at pretending these budget phones beat the newest iPhone. They barely beat the old Nokia flagships.