06-16-2013 12:11 PM
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  1. nufan947's Avatar
    I don't know anyone but one online friend from US who even owns a Vita..
    I own a Vita, and it is a fantastic system. Definitely the best portable system I've ever owned (and I've owned almost all of them). Very powerful and a great library that's growing all the time. It's a shame it gets bad press and people don't see the positives. But I agree with the above - rare to see one out there. Haha

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4 Beta
    06-11-2013 01:24 PM
  2. martinmc78's Avatar
    Indeed, even if the Live TV things wont all completely work for me here in Finland, I'm happy with just the TV coming as passthru, I will see messages etc while watching TV or game invites etc and no need to change inputs with remotes or cables. I guess for some it aint much and rather just do it manually, but I value that kinda stuff (and what martin said) quite highly if buying a new device. That's the reason why I love Windows 8 for example, just the OS-wide notifications etc are great.
    .
    Exactly if your watching TV through your Xbox one which is the whole point of the device - everything is just right there - a voice command away and ready in a spilt second.
    06-11-2013 01:25 PM
  3. Coreldan's Avatar
    I own a Vita, and it is a fantastic system. Definitely the best portable system I've ever owned (and I've owned almost all of them). Very powerful and a great library that's growing all the time. It's a shame it gets bad press and people don't see the positives. But I agree with the above - rare to see one out there. Haha

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4 Beta
    Ive also heard from my friend that it's the best portable out there and I believe it, no doubt. It's just that I dont think there's really a very popular niche for it left when people will most likely just suffice with playing on their phones and tablets.

    What I was saying basically comes down to Windows-ecosystem being millionfold more common than the PSVita, including my home, which is why I see the X1 worth more in that regard when talking about integration with other devices.
    nufan947 likes this.
    06-11-2013 01:31 PM
  4. Vallos's Avatar
    Just getting off the whole DRM and game sharing issue - I just wanted to share one of my highlights from the presentation that I had to watch 3 times to make sure I got what I was seeing.

    On the smartglass section - She (sorry cant remember name) had Ryse info on the surface and looking at her progress and comparing it to a friend. She then went from smartglass straight to her last save point in the game on the xbox seamlessly while smartglass continued tracking progress - then when the invite for KI came in she switched game with a voice command right into a match using the matchmaking features. No saving time in Ryse to slow things down and no load up time for KI - it was an almost instant switch

    Sorry but that blew my mind. Not even having a game on at the time looking at progress on a tablet while waiting for a KI match then going from tablet to game then straight to another game.

    Does no one realise the awesome sauce that's all over this? How can anyone possibly want a PS4 after that little 3 minute demo.

    I can be watching tv (nothing interesting) while looking at my stats on Battlefield 4 on my surface set matchmaking going then use my surface to check out progress on spark instantly start playing on spark (to the annoyance of my girlfriend who was finding tv interesting) do a little bit of game construction then bam straight into massive multiplayer carnage on Battlefield.

    Now compare that to PS4 - YOU CANNOT!!!
    Touche, Martin.

    In another thread, about new (or lack of) innovations in next-gen consoles, I mentioned cloud computing, but I totally forgot that multitasking on consoles will revolutionize how we use the system. This nugget is clearly being overlooked, but I gather it won't be for long.
    martinmc78 and acl14 like this.
    06-11-2013 01:32 PM
  5. sinime's Avatar
    Well, I was telling a friend about all the crap talking going on and he stopped me when I said you don't have to have the disk in to play... He thought that was awesome... Although both the PS4 & One will have downloadable games, but you won't be able to sell those later on.
    06-11-2013 01:41 PM
  6. martinmc78's Avatar
    Touche, Martin.

    In another thread, about new (or lack of) innovations in next-gen consoles, I mentioned cloud computing, but I totally forgot that multitasking on consoles will revolutionize how we use the system. This nugget is clearly being overlooked, but I gather it won't be for long.
    There is no denying there are negatives to how MS have gone about things and there is that saying "You're only remembered for your mistakes"

    But in my opinion the positives that the Xbox One brings to the party when you put the two consoles side by side outweigh those negatives greatly.
    06-11-2013 01:43 PM
  7. Reflexx's Avatar
    For me it isn't nearly so much the actual hassle of checking in every 24 hours (which is a pain in the a$$ anyway) as it is the principle of it. It's an implementation that I don't agree with and don't want to support. Same thing with the DRM. Like everyone has said, we'll see if the publishers impose it on PS4 anyway, but at least for now it does seem like Sony cares more about making sure people get what they want and it's delivered fairly.

    A lot of people around here constantly rag on Google for spying and collecting and selling data. For me the 'essentially always on,' and no selling of used games, and Kinect always on, are just as serious impediments to my gaming experience as people feel Google is to their web and/or mobile experience.

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4 Beta
    I'm not quite sure how that's even remotely related to spying.

    Developers make a game. Publishers finance that game with the expectation that they'll make their money back and some profit.

    Publishers and developers are selling you the game experience. They're not selling you the source code.

    The problem has been that when people have a physical disc, they have been assuming that you own everything that's on that disc. What you really own is the ability to play the game. But people don't understand that.

    So publishers have to respond by protecting their investment. They protect it by making sure that the person that they sold the right to play the game hasn't given it to someone else that hasn't purchased that right. That's it. They check to make sure that the code that belongs to them is valid.
    acl14 likes this.
    06-11-2013 01:50 PM
  8. Reflexx's Avatar
    You can sell your used games to Gamestop but, you can't sell it to your friend or on ebay....that is what is in place (according to what MS said and it's not 100% clear). In this case, you can't buy a used game unless it's at GameRipoff (game stop) or a supported retailer. This is what the Inernet is upset with.

    Till they publicly say that you can take your game and sell it to someone (not on your friends list) then it's still a problem (again, PHYSICAL MEDIA ONLY).

    Now, on the PS4, they showed how to share a game(LOL) but, did they say you can sell it to a 3rd party with out DRM or any type ? If they support DRM and leave it up to devs, it could be just as bad as the X1 is....

    So, I wish someone (MS or Sony) would clearly say what the deal is becuse of how they say it, the PS4's DRM could be just as bad as the X1 is.... and they could be just doing good becuase MS told more...
    ...and we'll see if physical media is priced more expensive for publishers to compensate.
    06-11-2013 01:52 PM
  9. Vallos's Avatar
    There is no denying there are negatives to how MS have gone about things and there is that saying "You're only remembered for your mistakes"

    But in my opinion the positives that the Xbox One brings to the party when you put the two consoles side by side outweigh those negatives greatly.
    Indeed. The dust will soon settle and temper and excitement will quell. This is when people will really see both systems for what they are worth. Another important note, MS is in this for the long haul. They clearly have a vision, and while they are not immune to mistakes, they certainly have the resources to overcome them. They know how to move on from this PR fiasco, just like how they did with every misstep they have taken in the past.
    06-11-2013 01:56 PM
  10. Reflexx's Avatar
    I'm still itching to know what defines a family.. is it something like shared payment model that is required? Cos the idea of gathering up all my Xbox playing friends into the family and have a huge library to share with each other sounds quite good. But I guess there will be some catch to avoid this kind of stuff other than only one being able to play it at one time.
    I think it's likely up to ten people under one paid account.

    That's most likely to happen with real family, or people who live in the same household.

    I suppose it could be done with a group of friends if one person was willing to be financially responsible for everyone else, and everyone trusted each other to not buy anything without permission... ever.
    06-11-2013 02:00 PM
  11. nufan947's Avatar
    I'm not quite sure how that's even remotely related to spying.

    Developers make a game. Publishers finance that game with the expectation that they'll make their money back and some profit.

    Publishers and developers are selling you the game experience. They're not selling you the source code.

    The problem has been that when people have a physical disc, they have been assuming that you own everything that's on that disc. What you really own is the ability to play the game. But people don't understand that.

    So publishers have to respond by protecting their investment. They protect it by making sure that the person that they sold the right to play the game hasn't given it to someone else that hasn't purchased that right. That's it. They check to make sure that the code that belongs to them is valid.
    I can't think of any big name game company (the ones forcing Microsoft to impose these restrictions, presumably) that doesn't make their money back + a crap-ton more on the games they release.

    I just think the restrictions they're imposing are draconian and unnecessary. That's all there is to it. The used game market is huge and I think developers will be placing huge barriers to entry for a lot of people that will probably never play a lot of the games out there due to the new rules.

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4 Beta
    06-11-2013 02:02 PM
  12. Reflexx's Avatar
    Its not unclear at all if you think about it - Game devs will definitely add DRM to stop piracy. Its typical Sony saying one thing to get a positive reaction while leaving out the underhand kicker that's bound to come along. You think any of the top 5 publishers wont ship any of its games to PS4 without some form of DRM even if its just a single use code for online play like they have on battlefield 3 now. Yes you can sell it but when the next person buys it they have to pay EA for another code before they go online.

    The public will cry "But Sony you said no DRM, you lied, I'm suing." and Sony will reply "The DRM hasn't come from us, cant sue, not our problem"

    People are going on like they will be able to swap, trade and sell with no restrictions. In the real world that's just not going to happen.
    Sony is playing a risky game where if there is any DRM implemented they are turning the Publisher (Sony's real customer) into the villain; throwing them under the bus.
    Vallos and DavidinCT like this.
    06-11-2013 02:03 PM
  13. martinmc78's Avatar
    Sony is playing a risky game where if there is any DRM implemented they are turning the Publisher (Sony's real customer) into the villain; throwing them under the bus.
    Seriously - you think EA isn't going to add DRM to Battlefield and Activision wont do the same to COD they are the two biggest culprits for DRM this generation they are going to stop doing it for one console format purely because Sony said they wouldn't
    06-11-2013 02:12 PM
  14. DavidinCT's Avatar
    Its not unclear at all if you think about it - Game devs will definitely add DRM to stop piracy. Its typical Sony saying one thing to get a positive reaction while leaving out the underhand kicker that's bound to come along. You think any of the top 5 publishers wont ship any of its games to PS4 without some form of DRM even if its just a single use code for online play like they have on battlefield 3 now. Yes you can sell it but when the next person buys it they have to pay EA for another code before they go online.

    The public will cry "But Sony you said no DRM, you lied, I'm suing." and Sony will reply "The DRM hasn't come from us, cant sue, not our problem"

    People are going on like they will be able to swap, trade and sell with no restrictions. In the real world that's just not going to happen.
    I hate to go this road but...

    DRM has been on every system so far, and know what ? Almost every system has been hacked. I can in less than 5 min find a hack for a PS3 (3.55 or lower model) or find a hack for almost ANY 360 right now (firmwares depending on model). I looked it up for a giggle and found plenty of forums with people doing it. And on your local Torrent site you can find all the PS3 and 360 games you could ever want, even ones that wont be released for a month. I do not do this to any of my systems but, have been tempted at one point or another, not for games, but, the 3rd party tools.

    Does anyone here ACTUALLY think adding DRM to games is going to stop the hackers ? Infact, if you add DRM hackers WANT to hack it more. The bigger the system is, the more demand for a hack and it will come, just a matter of time. DRM just makes it more of a challange for them.

    Sure there are problems with Hacking a system, for example, if you hack your 360/PS3 and go online, your banned for life (from playing on line or buying content out of the store) but, you can always play your "backups" single player version.

    As someone who has delt with the poor side of DRM (Windows Media Center HDCP issues) with plenty of issues, and know plenty of problems with people buying DRM music from a company that went under (all music is unplayable)

    DRM just makes it hard for the consumer, it's never accepted and never will be. Some people dont have issues with it, others will. It just makes the customer hate the company who made it and gives people a bad experiance when they are trying to use something THEY PAID for.

    Microsoft does a good job with security over all (I'm a systems admin and know the ins and outs of Windows security) but, when it's bad, it's bad and everyone pays for it...
    Last edited by DavidinCT; 06-11-2013 at 02:36 PM.
    michfan likes this.
    06-11-2013 02:13 PM
  15. Reflexx's Avatar
    I can't think of any big name game company (the ones forcing Microsoft to impose these restrictions, presumably) that doesn't make their money back + a crap-ton more on the games they release.

    I just think the restrictions they're imposing are draconian and unnecessary. That's all there is to it. The used game market is huge and I think developers will be placing huge barriers to entry for a lot of people that will probably never play a lot of the games out there due to the new rules.

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4 Beta
    There are a ton of games that don't make their money back. Game publishers make a lot of money on some of the hits. But there are many that lose them money. A LOT.

    THQ just went out of business recently because of that. Atari too.

    If your hits aren't big enough hits, then your misses destroy you.

    Because of that, publishers end up being really stingy with funding developers. And when a developer is finished making a game, they often have to lay off most of their staff because they didn't get enough money to keep them on board until the next game. Then they wait to see how the game sells. If it sells well and gets good ratings, then they might have a chance of making another game before they go out of business.
    06-11-2013 02:14 PM
  16. nufan947's Avatar
    There are a ton of games that don't make their money back. Game publishers make a lot of money on some of the hits. But there are many that lose them money. A LOT.

    THQ just went out of business recently because of that. Atari too.

    If your hits aren't big enough hits, then your misses destroy you.

    Because of that, publishers end up being really stingy with funding developers. And when a developer is finished making a game, they often have to lay off most of their staff because they didn't get enough money to keep them on board until the next game. Then they wait to see how the game sells. If it sells well and gets good ratings, then they might have a chance of making another game before they go out of business.
    Alright, well to be fair I wasn't aware of any of that :p so thanks for the info.

    It doesn't change my stance on the second half of what I said, though.... I like DavidinCT's post above about DRM. Sums it up pretty well.

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4 Beta
    06-11-2013 02:21 PM
  17. martinmc78's Avatar
    I hate to go this road but...

    DRM has been on every system so far, and know what ? Almost every system has been hacked. I can in less than 5 min find a hack for a PS3 (3.55 or lower model) or find a hack for almost ANY 360 right now (firmwares depending on model). I looked it up for a giggle and found plenty of forums with people doing it.

    Does anyone here ACTUALLY think adding DRM to games is going to stop the hackers ? Infact, if you add DRM hackers WANT to hack it more. The bigger the system is, the more demand for a hack and it will come, just a matter of time. DRM just makes it more of a challange for them.

    Sure there are problems with Hacking a system, for example, if you hack your 360/PS3 and go online, your banned for life (from playing on line or buying content out of the store) but, you can always play your "backups" single player version.

    As someone who has delt with the poor side of DRM (Windows Media Center HDCP issues) with plenty of issues, and know plenty of problems with people buying DRM music from a company that went under (all music is unplayable)

    DRM just makes it hard for the consumer, it's never accepted and never will be. Some people dont have issues with it, others will. It just makes the customer hate the company who made it and gives people a bad experiance when they are trying to use something THEY PAID for.

    Microsoft does a good job with security over all (I'm a systems admin and know the ins and outs of Windows security) but, when it's bad, it's bad and everyone pays for it...
    I agree with you - its nothing new and people will always find ways to break the system - what I was getting at was Average Joe that wouldn't even think about hacking a game will be a tad peeved with Sony when EA puts DRM on a game he buys when Sony smugly announced that they wouldn't put DRM on the console.
    06-11-2013 02:22 PM
  18. nasellok's Avatar
    these are my thoughts - I posted this on CNET, and got hammered by the PS fanboys.....

    If you are so stupid to think that for one second, a game developer that is developing a game for both systems is going to have different DRM restrictions for one system and not the other your are painfully mistaken. Sony has played their card right in this - they have basically thrown up their hands and said that DRM will be up to the developers - this is clue #1 - you will have the same DRM restrictions on PS4 that you will on the ONE........If a game developer can get a cut for a used game via DRM on the PS4, the same way they would on the ONE, don't you think they would take advantage of this - game developers lose money on every used game purchase (well, don't lose money, but they don't profit either from a used game sale - the only profit is on the re-sale by Gamestop, etc.)....and the last time I checked, they are FOR PROFIT companies. Your just a delusional ***** if you don't think that your PS4 will have DRM on every game you purchase / sell. For instance - you will not be able to play a game you bought, and downloaded onto your hard drive, if you sell the physical copy of the disk to Gamestop. Any game developer who didn't build this security into their platform would be an *****, and if you believe that this will be the case on the PS4, you are just as much an *****. I question how it will work if your game is bought instore (physical disc), and you have the game downloaded to your HD, and then let your friend borrow the physical disc. Will you both be able to play the game, or only one of you. If its only one of you, I don't see the issue with this - for the past 25 years, game consoles have had physical media that allows one game system at a time to play the game - think Nintendo cartridge - if you wanted to let your friend borrow your game, you gave him the cartridge, and you couldn't play it until he gave it back - this is the same age old concept.

    I do think that MS is making a mistake on this every 24 hr BS.....It should check your game license every time you open the game, and only then. If you loan your game to your friend, fine - they should play to their heart's content, but once that game is played back on your system, that floating license should be inactive. It doesn't seem that hard a concept to me.

    That being said, I am on the fence - I have a PS3, mostly use it for playing movies, Netflix, and the occasional game - I am a fan of COD, and EA sports games - I will be purchasing one of these systems, but will wait to see some friends setups before. The PS3 interface is painful, the web browsing experience is possibly the worst thing ever, and the apps are hard to find, and even worse to use. If the ONE truly works like an extension of my Windows 8 PC, and I can run Windows 8 applications on it, and it has full web browser, etc. then I will be sold on the ONE. If the PS4 has a drastically improved interface, and works with my devices, then I will get it. The one thing that I do like about the ONE, is that I can play a friend in Madden who lives on the other side of the country, and be able to Skype with them at the same time - that will be really cool, don't discount this feature. Plus, the PS4 camera system will be 60$, which means that the real price difference is 40$
    06-11-2013 02:55 PM
  19. DavidinCT's Avatar
    Yep, the "fine print" for Sony's DRM comes along.... Sony calling BS... So most titles for PS4 will have it and some So, so, based titles wont so Sony can claim no DRM..

    "There's gonna be free-to-play, there's gonna be every potential business model on there, and again, that's up to their relationship with the consumer, what do they think is going to put them in the best fit. We're not going to dictate that, we're gonna give them a platform to publish on. The DRM decision is going to have to be answered by the third parties, it's not something we're going to control, or dictate, or mandate, or implement."
    PlayStation 4 DRM policies get a bit more complex: third-party publishers can dictate terms

    Maybe it's me but, doesn't this kind of feel like Sony lied about it ?
    martinmc78 likes this.
    06-11-2013 03:01 PM
  20. martinmc78's Avatar
    06-11-2013 03:02 PM
  21. Reflexx's Avatar
    I hate to go this road but...

    DRM has been on every system so far, and know what ? Almost every system has been hacked. I can in less than 5 min find a hack for a PS3 (3.55 or lower model) or find a hack for almost ANY 360 right now (firmwares depending on model). I looked it up for a giggle and found plenty of forums with people doing it. And on your local Torrent site you can find all the PS3 and 360 games you could ever want, even ones that wont be released for a month. I do not do this to any of my systems but, have been tempted at one point or another, not for games, but, the 3rd party tools.

    Does anyone here ACTUALLY think adding DRM to games is going to stop the hackers ? Infact, if you add DRM hackers WANT to hack it more. The bigger the system is, the more demand for a hack and it will come, just a matter of time. DRM just makes it more of a challange for them.

    Sure there are problems with Hacking a system, for example, if you hack your 360/PS3 and go online, your banned for life (from playing on line or buying content out of the store) but, you can always play your "backups" single player version.

    As someone who has delt with the poor side of DRM (Windows Media Center HDCP issues) with plenty of issues, and know plenty of problems with people buying DRM music from a company that went under (all music is unplayable)

    DRM just makes it hard for the consumer, it's never accepted and never will be. Some people dont have issues with it, others will. It just makes the customer hate the company who made it and gives people a bad experiance when they are trying to use something THEY PAID for.

    Microsoft does a good job with security over all (I'm a systems admin and know the ins and outs of Windows security) but, when it's bad, it's bad and everyone pays for it...

    The point isn't to stop people who are intent on hacking. It's to keep it from regular people deciding to hack because of the hoops they'd have to go through to make it happen and keep it happening. Most people don't have time for that stuff.

    There will still be hacks.
    06-11-2013 03:07 PM
  22. Reflexx's Avatar
    Alright, well to be fair I wasn't aware of any of that :p so thanks for the info.

    It doesn't change my stance on the second half of what I said, though.... I like DavidinCT's post above about DRM. Sums it up pretty well.

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4 Beta
    Maybe I'm biased because I worked in the game industry and the instability is horrible. It sucks seeing friends lose their jobs after every project. And it's not like they get paid a ton compared to the amount of skills and training they have.

    Yes, they choose that path. But it doesn't mean it doesn't suck that consumers take them for granted. It's one reason I don't work for a studio anymore. It's not stable.

    But now I teach people to be 3D artists, and it's kind of scary sending my students out there to the wolves. It's like saying, "I know you love this industry, and you got into this because you love games, but understand that other people who love games don't give a crap about you or your family."
    06-11-2013 03:11 PM
  23. vertigoOne's Avatar
    Does anyone here ACTUALLY think adding DRM to games is going to stop the hackers ? Infact, if you add DRM hackers WANT to hack it more. The bigger the system is, the more demand for a hack and it will come, just a matter of time. DRM just makes it more of a challange for them.
    This is true if you only have to worry about the once in a while that system updates would block a hack...but when you are forced to actively check in with MS servers once every 24 hours for authentication? That brings a whole new level of inconvenience to hacking. Just look at how 'inconvenient' this check-in seems for non-hackers based on the reactions all over the internet right now. This level of DRM is unparalleled with any other Microsoft product with the exception of Office 365.

    It is an endless battle, I agree, but apparently Microsoft is up for the challenge.

    There is a software that I have used for a long time, and there was always discussion about it being hacked and shared online. Then development really picked up for it and they were releasing new versions at a fever pitch...and the hacked versions stopped for awhile. Development slowed again and it got hacked again.

    Day 1 DLC is another potential avenue that could be used to curb hacking and piracy, but 'gamers' frown on that as well. So until everything becomes F2P and ad-supported, it is just a battle that we are going to be stuck in the middle of.

    The upside optimistically is that if the X1 DRM is a success, hopefully software prices will not need to increase.
    06-11-2013 03:18 PM
  24. nufan947's Avatar
    Maybe it's me but, doesn't this kind of feel like Sony lied about it ?
    Yes and no. Obviously it wasn't entirely full disclosure, but Sony games will still adhere to their free and open principle, and there are some damn good first-party games out there, and I'm guessing a lot more to come. So potentially crappy, but like the article says, not suuuuper different from how games are.

    Still won't have the 24 hour check in... Haha

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4 Beta
    06-11-2013 03:33 PM
  25. DavidinCT's Avatar
    This is true if you only have to worry about the once in a while that system updates would block a hack...but when you are forced to actively check in with MS servers once every 24 hours for authentication? That brings a whole new level of inconvenience to hacking. Just look at how 'inconvenient' this check-in seems for non-hackers based on the reactions all over the internet right now. This level of DRM is unparalleled with any other Microsoft product with the exception of Office 365.
    Nah, I dont forsee it damaging the hackers any bit, companies have tried that before (something that calls home every once and a while) software wise and workarounds or "hacks" have been found.

    It's not for everyone but, a tech person who gets ticked off because of the limits of DRM might go down that road. A good % of gamers are techy who could figure it out if good directions are posted.

    How ever, but, if it ever comes down to a game that I paid for but, I can't play because of some dam DRM issue, if it was an easy hack, I would sure be tempted to do it...

    DRM is not good for anyone...even in the long run, may it be 8-10 years from now when the X2 is out, the X1 servers are shut down, you can't play your games you paid for any more. Think about it, who is really paying here ? It's the consumer, not Microsoft or the devs...

    The upside optimistically is that if the X1 DRM is a success, hopefully software prices will not need to increase.
    If it comes down to Steam type model I think people would love it. A new game released last week, on sale $45 download only (a good game). It would do very well, never mind the companies dont have to deal with the overhead of building, shipping and selling a Disc based product. I personally would not even look at used games because the value would be so high in a download only format.

    We would all win here but, in the real world, it's about greed and profits. Even though the companies are not paying to create and sell a disc based product, they still will want $59.99 for the game...

    There for, gamers like myself, who like to play a lot of games, need to find a value in game products... and used games are my only method of playing a lot of games that am not willing to pay $60 for (and not from GameRipOff, AKA Gamestop).

    So what does this mean for gamers like myself ? It just means less games that I will play and when it comes to a part 2 to a game, I might skip it because I never played the first one.... So who really wins on that one ? No one, and less games the dev will sell..

    Yes and no. Obviously it wasn't entirely full disclosure
    Yep but, Both Microsoft and Sony has been doing this, Why wont they just fess up and be honest on everything ???? Sony is trying to look like the good guy here but, they are just as bad as Microsoft here....

    Still no Kinect watching every move and no 24 hour checks...Hmmm
    Last edited by DavidinCT; 06-11-2013 at 03:51 PM.
    06-11-2013 03:38 PM
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    By Nataku4ca in forum Microsoft News & Rumors
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 12-24-2012, 03:39 AM
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