06-14-2013 05:40 AM
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  1. Bicpug's Avatar
    Either way, I am free under EU law to resell the game as i see fit. MS relinquish reseller rights when they sell it to me; they may find their planned system of authorized resellers is illegal under EU law because of this as they are trying to reclaim that right by dictating who i may and may not sell the game to. The fact that they are free to remove a consumers rights in the USA does not give them the automatic right to do so in other countries.
    DavidinCT likes this.
    06-13-2013 01:40 AM
  2. theeboredone's Avatar
    This is how you make a proper statement. Sony's Shuhei Yoshida on online play requiring a payment...

    "I apologize for the financial burden on our users, but on PS4 it’ll also provide early access to beta versions, free games and discounts like on PS3 and PS Vita. In addition to that PS Plus members will receive for free a special edition with slightly reduced functions of DriveClub."
    There you go. Humility and humbleness by apologizing to your fan base, and insisting that those 5 bucks a month will be worth it. Not saying he is like that as a person, but that is the personality he is conveying. You don't essentially do the Adam Orth "Deal with it" route. It just pisses your fans/customers off.
    06-13-2013 01:41 AM
  3. spaulagain's Avatar
    Either way, I am free under EU law to resell the game as i see fit. MS relinquish reseller rights when they sell it to me; they may find their planned system of authorized resellers is illegal under EU law because of this as they are trying to reclaim that right by dictating who i may and may not sell the game to. The fact that they are free to remove a consumers rights in the USA does not give them the automatic right to do so in other countries.
    No they won't...

    http://m.t3.com/news/microsoft-hasnt...-and-heres-why

    You think they haven't already looked into this? They just made this rule without checking the legal ramifications in popular markets? I work for a company of around 100 people and only 1 of which is legal console, and we certainly wouldn't miss a giant legal wall like that.

    Microsoft has been to the courts before, they know better than to walk down that path again.
    06-13-2013 01:44 AM
  4. Keith Wallace's Avatar
    Consumer: Your product "hammer" won't tighten this bolt. What if I want to tighten a bolt?

    Business: Thankfully, we do have a product called "wrench" that tightens bolts.

    Consumer: If I pay for hammer I want it to tighten bolts.

    Business: But it wasn't designed to tighten bolts.

    Consumer: But I want what I pay for.

    Business: But why would you pay for it when I'm telling you ahead of time it doesn't tighten bolts?

    Consumer: You're an arrogant jerk.
    You make the worst analogies in the world, bar none. The wrench wasn't built as a successor to the hammer. The hammer hasn't been phased out over time because of the creation of the wrench. The wrench was not invented by the creators of the hammer. This would be more like if Chevrolet introduced a new Corvette, and they told you that you could ONLY use it with a high-end stereo system, it can only be driven by someone other than the owner if the owner has been friends with the owner for a month, and a person can only drive your car once. Oh, and if you don't come by the dealership to show us you still have the car every day, we've got a "feature" that makes the car incapable of driving you anywhere but the dealership until we see that you still own the car and we OK the car to drive you places.
    06-13-2013 01:45 AM
  5. Bicpug's Avatar
    Time will tell; personally i can see xboxOne doing well in the USA and taking a massive blow elsewhere. Everywhere else is being charged a premium when none of the TV features will be working in their country at release time.
    06-13-2013 01:49 AM
  6. ho0lee0h's Avatar
    Consumer: Your product "hammer" won't tighten this bolt. What if I want to tighten a bolt?

    Business: Thankfully, we do have a product called "wrench" that tightens bolts.

    Consumer: If I pay for hammer I want it to tighten bolts.

    Business: But it wasn't designed to tighten bolts.

    Consumer: But I want what I pay for.

    Business: But why would you pay for it when I'm telling you ahead of time it doesn't tighten bolts?

    Consumer: You're an arrogant jerk.
    It's more like expecting a wrench to tighten bolts from the company that always makes your favorite wrench. But then they try to sell you a "new wrench" that only tightens bolts when you check in on the internet every 24 hours just to make sure you haven't loaned it to a friend.
    06-13-2013 01:53 AM
  7. Reflexx's Avatar
    You make the worst analogies in the world, bar none. The wrench wasn't built as a successor to the hammer. The hammer hasn't been phased out over time because of the creation of the wrench. The wrench was not invented by the creators of the hammer. This would be more like if Chevrolet introduced a new Corvette, and they told you that you could ONLY use it with a high-end stereo system, it can only be driven by someone other than the owner if the owner has been friends with the owner for a month, and a person can only drive your car once. Oh, and if you don't come by the dealership to show us you still have the car every day, we've got a "feature" that makes the car incapable of driving you anywhere but the dealership until we see that you still own the car and we OK the car to drive you places.
    Way to miss the point.

    The point is that it's not built to be an offline machine. Most of what it does is dependent on the internet. It's not just a game console.

    Do analogies really have to be 1 to 1 in order for you to understand them? Or are you just being difficult?

    If you want something that is only a game console that is perfectly fine offline, then buy that.

    Stop trying to turn a hammer into a wrench. Go buy a wrench.

    Just like if someone wants Facetime, they'd get an iPhone. Or if they want the Google Play store they'd get an Android phone. Or if they want Microsoft Office they'd get a Windows Phone.
    Or if they want a phone that works offline they'd get a landline!

    Buy the product that fits what you want instead of whining about one that does what you dont want. It's not really a complicated concept.
    Laura Knotek and oldpueblo like this.
    06-13-2013 01:55 AM
  8. spaulagain's Avatar
    Time will tell; personally i can see xboxOne doing well in the USA and taking a massive blow elsewhere. Everywhere else is being charged a premium when none of the TV features will be working in their country at release time.
    The PS3 was $200 more than the 360 and launched a year later, but it still sold nearly the same amount.

    So I don't see how $100 that INCLUDES a Kinect is being charged a premium (regardless of TV functionality). Especially when its only the base model PS4 that is that cheap. The top level is even more.
    06-13-2013 01:56 AM
  9. Bicpug's Avatar
    I'm not comparing the price to the PS4, i'm comparing xbox prices in different countries. Even allowing for sales taxes everyone else is getting shafted.
    06-13-2013 01:58 AM
  10. blazer236ix's Avatar
    It's called giving the customers what they want. And if i pay 500 for a xbone i dont want all these restrictions. 360 won't be supported past 2015 at the most.
    06-13-2013 02:14 AM
  11. blazer236ix's Avatar
    What if you just got Internet or you waited for your Internet to come back? I hope you don't subscribe to any online streaming service because what if your Internet went down!?! This is designed for the most common scenario not outliers. That's like saying lets design every computer to be slow so that they don't generate a lot of heat, because what if it gets hot and someone's AC gives out and it overheats!?!
    Its easier to get access for a streaming service than it is to get service for an xbone.
    06-13-2013 02:18 AM
  12. blazer236ix's Avatar
    The PS3 was $200 more than the 360 and launched a year later, but it still sold nearly the same amount.

    So I don't see how $100 that INCLUDES a Kinect is being charged a premium (regardless of TV functionality). Especially when its only the base model PS4 that is that cheap. The top level is even more.
    He's talking about all the streaming partnerships and the rest as the premium
    06-13-2013 02:19 AM
  13. jonathan sink's Avatar
    I haven't even had my Internet service go down for a few hours, much less a few days, in the past 2 years that I've used Time-Warner.

    My previous ISP was AT&T, and it only was down for a few hours one time.
    I have time Warner been with them for ten yrs this year. I have had there service go out quite a bit. Do to faulty equipment, which then requires an appointment for them to come out and fix. So you count in my work schedule there busy schedule it can be a few days before there able to make it out. I also live in the city, so a few times people have wrecked and hit the poll internet down. I've had people hit the junction box again internet down till they can come out and fix it. So again this 24 hr check in is just ridiculous.
    06-13-2013 06:41 AM
  14. mr_808's Avatar
    Some new information for you is that you WILL be able to sell your digital game downloads back to Microsoft. The difference is that you will not have to go to a store to do it. You will be able to sit on your couch and sell your games. :)
    So when I first read this I was like, "This dude is crazy. What is he talking about?" But I've been thinking about it for a little while now and I kinda see what you are saying. MS has said that you can give games to friends who have been on your friends list for 30 days. They have also said you can share your account with up to 10 people(they did say 10 people, right?) Well, if you consider that your games are stored in the cloud then what you are saying is true. Your games will be traded online! Now, I don't know about the selling of games but I could envision this. If this is the case then MS is actually giving you a lot more value for your games in the digital realm.

    Please correct me if I am wrong on any of this.
    Robert Carpenter likes this.
    06-13-2013 07:46 AM
  15. Reflexx's Avatar
    It's called giving the customers what they want. And if i pay 500 for a xbone i dont want all these restrictions. 360 won't be supported past 2015 at the most.
    They plan at least another 3 years of 360 support.
    06-13-2013 09:32 AM
  16. Reflexx's Avatar
    So when I first read this I was like, "This dude is crazy. What is he talking about?" But I've been thinking about it for a little while now and I kinda see what you are saying. MS has said that you can give games to friends who have been on your friends list for 30 days. They have also said you can share your account with up to 10 people(they did say 10 people, right?) Well, if you consider that your games are stored in the cloud then what you are saying is true. Your games will be traded online! Now, I don't know about the selling of games but I could envision this. If this is the case then MS is actually giving you a lot more value for your games in the digital realm.

    Please correct me if I am wrong on any of this.
    The 10 people are your "family." We still have to see what that entails. We don't know if you could pick 9 friends, or if they all have to be part of a family account.

    I would guess that they all have to be linked to one main parent account.
    06-13-2013 09:36 AM
  17. blzr409's Avatar
    I don't think that's accurate, I saw an IDC report not to long ago and ps3 had sold more then 360.
    Accurate figures are hard to come by, but apparently after the holiday season Sony was reporting 77 million PS3s sold over its lifetime, while the 360 was at 76 million. The 360 has a significant edge in North America, it's pretty much neck and neck in Europe, then the Xbox is just a complete non-factor in Japan, failing to crack even 2 million consoles sold there. It's about 5:1 in favor of the PS3 there, if not even worse than that. That's why the delayed Asian launch of the Xbox One really doesn't seem like that big a deal to me. It's just not a signficant market for them, making up just a little over 2% of all Xbox 360 sales.
    06-13-2013 09:48 AM
  18. DavidinCT's Avatar
    So if a parent wants to give their kid a gaming console without internet connection(for obvious reasons) than the XBox One is a no buy. Microsoft basically wrote off 50 million sales just like that.
    Hard core or even mid line gamers who are adults or have a good job seem to forget about this. As someone who did custom home theater installs for years in homes, I saw this a lot more than you think. Xbox 360s and PS3s with no internet connections in kids rooms is very common. The parents dont want the kids to have internet access in their rooms, only a computer in a kitchen or main room so they can be montored. A lot of parents feel that way with all the bad press of things happening on the internet these days, I can fully understand. A lot of parents still feel a video game console is a toy to entertain their kids (a modern babysitter).

    This is a big point in sales for these consoles, kids under 15 who have systems in their rooms with no internet connections. It's more common than you think.

    Microsoft just blacklisted these people. Yea, the Xbox One pre-orders are selling out to the hard core gamers or people well off but, the main sales come later, when everyone picks up the system. With these systems blacklisted and parents who buy a big junk of these systems will have to think about it, or it will end up with a very high return rate because of this factor.

    This is a lot bigger amount of sales than you think. This will make a large impact on sales in the long run. I am not talking about when it's released but, over the next year or 2 after release, yea it will be a big deal and sales will show it.

    As I sit here and complain about this, because it could effect me at 1 or 2 times a year (that time when Internet is down and I WANT to play a game at that time), I still think it's an issue. Microsoft needs to be 100% clear and honest about the details on this. They have not been, this is what is causing an outrage on the internet.

    All they would have to change is when a Physical disk is inside the machine, no internet is needed to use that game (as long as cloud is not needed for a single player game), it would solve this issue, it would make most people happy here and would not blacklist these possable sales.
    06-13-2013 09:50 AM
  19. Anthony Tarantino's Avatar
    The problem is that Microsoft is alienating the people who don't have stable internet (or none at all). Plenty of people bought the 360 and PS3 and they were able to play games perfectly fine without being online. With the Xbox One, the damn thing won't even play games unless you connect it every 24 hours.

    Good thing the Wii U and PS4 can play games offline.
    DavidinCT and blazer236ix like this.
    06-13-2013 09:55 AM
  20. HeyCori's Avatar
    Hard core or even mid line gamers who are adults or have a good job seem to forget about this. As someone who did custom home theater installs for years in homes, I saw this a lot more than you think. Xbox 360s and PS3s with no internet connections in kids rooms is very common. The parents dont want the kids to have internet access in their rooms, only a computer in a kitchen or main room so they can be montored. A lot of parents feel that way with all the bad press of things happening on the internet these days, I can fully understand. A lot of parents still feel a video game console is a toy to entertain their kids (a modern babysitter).

    This is a big point in sales for these consoles, kids under 15 who have systems in their rooms with no internet connections. It's more common than you think.

    Microsoft just blacklisted these people. Yea, the Xbox One pre-orders are selling out to the hard core gamers or people well off but, the main sales come later, when everyone picks up the system. With these systems blacklisted and parents who buy a big junk of these systems will have to think about it, or it will end up with a very high return rate because of this factor.

    This is a lot bigger amount of sales than you think. This will make a large impact on sales in the long run. I am not talking about when it's released but, over the next year or 2 after release, yea it will be a big deal and sales will show it.

    As I sit here and complain about this, because it could effect me at 1 or 2 times a year (that time when Internet is down and I WANT to play a game at that time), I still think it's an issue. Microsoft needs to be 100% clear and honest about the details on this. They have not been, this is what is causing an outrage on the internet.

    All they would have to change is when a Physical disk is inside the machine, no internet is needed to use that game (as long as cloud is not needed for a single player game), it would solve this issue, it would make most people happy here and would not blacklist these possable sales.
    I wouldn't be surprised if more advanced parental controls allowed the system to check-in and nothing else.
    Last edited by HeyCori; 06-13-2013 at 10:16 AM.
    Vallos and sueha like this.
    06-13-2013 10:05 AM
  21. sueha's Avatar
    I dont care, I'm getting the XBOX, cause I love technology (the One looks more innovative to me) and I can make use of the TV features. Having an Internet Connection 24/7 is no Problem for me as I live in 2013. Dont understand your Problems. If I have temporary Internet issues (which actually never happens), I shut off the Systems and go out lol. It will be my first non-nintendo device lol (I even work for Nintendo).

    If you decide to buy a PS4/XBOX One for your Kids, you shouldnt complain too much about having Access to the Internet. If you really want your Kids to play adequate games, you should buy them a Nintendo anyway :) I'm not sure, but I guess there will be something like a Kids Zone on the One.
    06-13-2013 10:05 AM
  22. DavidinCT's Avatar
    Have you ever heard of Diablo 3, SIm City, Simpson's Tapped Out, Curiosity? These are all games that you need an internet connection to function. This idea is nothing new.
    Yep, and these types of games are designed to use ONLINE and ONLY ONLINE multi-player. I am only talking about single player games, Every heard of Black Ops 2 ? Ever heard The Last of US ? God of War ? Modern Warefare 1, 2 or 3 ? I'm talking about almost EVERY GAME FOR EVERY CONSOLE.

    Some people buy systems/games to play online only and that is cool, nothing wrong with it, therefore needing a internet connection. A lot of people like myself, enjoys games for their story and the designers made the game BEFORE any mulitplayer content. Yep, I got Black Ops 2 and did not even try the Muti-player game till I fully completed the single player game and I do that with every game I buy.

    No matter what everyone here thinks, I still stand by the fact that I should be able to play the NON-Cloud based single player game even if Xbox live or my ISP is down for a long term. 10 years from now when I want to play this game that I paid for, now that the X3 is out and MS servers do not suppor the system, I still think I should have the right to play the game that I paid for and not be forced to be limited by the status of MS's Xbox live OR my ISP.

    The rule should be there still, Phsical disk in a console rules if a connection is not availabe. PERIOD. I know 100%, I am not the only one who feels like this (more like millions of people).

    I wouldn't be surprised if more advanced parenting controls allowed the system to check-in and nothing else.
    Agreed on this but, it does not take away the fact of non-techy old school parents who would never let a internet connection in a childs room for any reason will still be there and makes up a LOT of console buyers. A lot more than you think.

    At least some of the kids steal the person's next door open wi-fi or got the key from his friend, I have seen that a lot too but, the parents never even know about it... :)
    06-13-2013 10:08 AM
  23. Vallos's Avatar
    I wouldn't be surprised if more advanced parenting controls allowed the system to check-in and nothing else.
    Good call, there. People are assuming way too much.
    sueha likes this.
    06-13-2013 10:11 AM
  24. tk-093's Avatar

    Agreed on this but, it does not take away the fact of non-techy old school parents who would never let a internet connection in a childs room for any reason will still be there and makes up a LOT of console buyers. A lot more than you think.

    Something else to think about. Those parents who were too scared to have kids online.. well their kids have grown up and now there is a newer generation of parents who are more likely to allow that sort of thing. Not all parents, obviously, but that "tech" gap is closing very fast. Hell my school gives every middle school kid an iPad to do homework on, many other schools do laptops. We are all just speculating of course, and I would assume MS did some research into it, but the days of "old-school" parents not letting their kids get online is probably about over.

    P.S. Since Microsoft has only sold about 77 million XBox 360's, it's probably safe to say they didn't "write off" 50 million sales.
    HeyCori and sueha like this.
    06-13-2013 10:56 AM
  25. jlzimmerman's Avatar
    I have never seen a more heated subject than this Xbox One. I have my opinions (which aren't all pro Microsoft and are just as valid by the way). But at the end of the day, its just a overpriced box no one really needs, keeping things in perspective.
    It's $100 more than when the 360 was released EIGHT years ago. BFD when you consider that will spread over the life of the console (7-10 years).


    And it requires a short authentication ONCE every 24 hours. If your internet connection is out for 24 hours or more you have bigger problems. I would bet the percentage of gamers who play without an internet connection that lasts more than 24 is hours would be very small. And folks screaming about used games haven't looked outside their comfort zone to READ other sources which states M$ will not charge a fee, will allow selling and buying of used games through retailers, and will allow you to lend a game to a friend.

    From one article:
    In a post on the Xbox Wire website, Microsoft said that in terms of trading in or reselling their Xbox One disc games to retailers such as GameStop,"We designed Xbox One so game publishers can enable you to trade in your games at participating retailers. Microsoft does not charge a platform fee to retailers, publishers, or consumers for enabling transfer of these games."

    And what about just giving an Xbox One game disc to a friend? Microsoft said that this is allowed, but also put in two restrictions: " ... you can only give them to people who have been on your friends list for at least 30 days and each game can only be given once." Microsoft said no fees would be charged for these actions.

    That's the good news. The bad news is that Microsoft is giving third party game publishers an option to set up their own restrictions on used Xbox One game discs.
    And on that last sentance, PS4 is doing the same thing.
    06-13-2013 11:08 AM
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