06-14-2013 05:40 AM
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  1. Robert Carpenter's Avatar
    Did I really just get an infraction from calling someone a "crybaby" on this thread?

    My post got deleted and my account got an infraction because calling someone a "crybaby" is a personal attack. Most moderators here, like HeyCori, are awesome and respectful people, but some of them are really immature.

    Does anyone else think that calling someone a "crybaby" is worth and infraction?....
    06-13-2013 11:09 AM
  2. tk-093's Avatar
    Good post, dude. Very fair points. I was also thinking having the disk in the drive would be a good backup, but the more i think about it, I don't know if that would work with the way MS is wanting to go.

    The XBox One is basically a Steam Box. Sure they have physical disks, but I think it's more of a way to get the digital copy on the machine without having to download a massive file. If I buy a disk, or download it from online, the XBox One treats it the same way.

    Sony, and I'm just speculating until we get more details, is staying with the same old method of requiring the disk to be in the drive in order to play. Which is fine, wouldn't bother me. If you download it online, you wouldn't need a disk which makes sense because they don't have any of the cool sharing features that the XB1 has so they don't need online checks.

    Now, XB1 lets me toss away the disk after I install but has online checks. If it let me use the disk as a failsafe without internet, I could easily just install the game on an online machine and turn around and sell it to somebody with an offline machine and we could both play which is technically in violation of the software license.

    But what happens if that user then goes online and the game tries to register? Does it break your ability to play the game, or does the original license holder have to give permission to transfer the license, or is the user just SOL? It could get messy.

    So the online check is there for DRM, no doubt, but it's also there to help facilitate some of the features like sharing games with your family, or actually selling your license back. It also means that there is potential to sell my online only downloads, where in the past once I buy them, I'm stuck with them for life.

    Make no mistake, it is a very different world especially since I've been popping physical disks/carts into games since the Atari 2600. Microsoft might not "win" this round, but it's the direction everything is going. I have no doubt they will still be very profitable reguardless of how many consoles they sell.



    Hard core or even mid line gamers who are adults or have a good job seem to forget about this. As someone who did custom home theater installs for years in homes, I saw this a lot more than you think. Xbox 360s and PS3s with no internet connections in kids rooms is very common. The parents dont want the kids to have internet access in their rooms, only a computer in a kitchen or main room so they can be montored. A lot of parents feel that way with all the bad press of things happening on the internet these days, I can fully understand. A lot of parents still feel a video game console is a toy to entertain their kids (a modern babysitter).

    This is a big point in sales for these consoles, kids under 15 who have systems in their rooms with no internet connections. It's more common than you think.

    Microsoft just blacklisted these people. Yea, the Xbox One pre-orders are selling out to the hard core gamers or people well off but, the main sales come later, when everyone picks up the system. With these systems blacklisted and parents who buy a big junk of these systems will have to think about it, or it will end up with a very high return rate because of this factor.

    This is a lot bigger amount of sales than you think. This will make a large impact on sales in the long run. I am not talking about when it's released but, over the next year or 2 after release, yea it will be a big deal and sales will show it.

    As I sit here and complain about this, because it could effect me at 1 or 2 times a year (that time when Internet is down and I WANT to play a game at that time), I still think it's an issue. Microsoft needs to be 100% clear and honest about the details on this. They have not been, this is what is causing an outrage on the internet.

    All they would have to change is when a Physical disk is inside the machine, no internet is needed to use that game (as long as cloud is not needed for a single player game), it would solve this issue, it would make most people happy here and would not blacklist these possable sales.
    oldpueblo likes this.
    06-13-2013 11:12 AM
  3. martinmc78's Avatar
    Did I really just get an infraction from calling someone a "crybaby" on this thread?

    My post got deleted and my account got an infraction because calling someone a "crybaby" is a personal attack. Most moderators here, like HeyCori, are awesome and respectful people, but some of them are really immature.

    Does anyone else think that calling someone a "crybaby" is worth and infraction?....
    Tell me about it - I got an infraction for saying an obvious troll should go back to his cave after you lambasted him with an awesome response.

    Please moderators, moderate. But do so in moderation.
    Robert Carpenter likes this.
    06-13-2013 11:18 AM
  4. Vallos's Avatar
    Did I really just get an infraction from calling someone a "crybaby" on this thread?

    My post got deleted and my account got an infraction because calling someone a "crybaby" is a personal attack. Most moderators here, like HeyCori, are awesome and respectful people, but some of them are really immature.

    Does anyone else think that calling someone a "crybaby" is worth and infraction?....
    I think it's best you bring this up privately to the moderators, instead of publicly questioning their actions. You might get another infraction, or worse because of it.
    06-13-2013 11:24 AM
  5. jlzimmerman's Avatar
    M$ getting rid of people with shotty internet connection is kind of a Godsend to gamers. No more lag, or time-outs due to switching hosts. LOL.

    It's interesting to hear the reaction of console players when PC gamers have been in this (licensing/online connection) realm for years. *shrug*
    06-13-2013 11:26 AM
  6. martinmc78's Avatar
    M$ getting rid of people with shotty internet connection is kind of a Godsend to gamers. No more lag, or time-outs due to switching hosts. LOL.
    That's a damn fine point - I never thought of that and its one of my biggest annoyances with online play - welcome to the future.
    06-13-2013 11:31 AM
  7. Reflexx's Avatar
    The "disc rules all" idea won't work.

    People will just install the game on their hard drive and then give the disc to someone else to play offline.
    06-13-2013 11:31 AM
  8. DavidinCT's Avatar
    Good post, dude. Very fair points. I was also thinking having the disk in the drive would be a good backup, but the more i think about it, I don't know if that would work with the way MS is wanting to go..
    Thanks, that is how I feel about the subject, No internet, no connection, Physical disc would show that I owned the game and I should be able to use it (Physical discs only, I understand digital downloads could not be played in this case)


    Now, XB1 lets me toss away the disk after I install but has online checks. If it let me use the disk as a failsafe without internet, I could easily just install the game on an online machine and turn around and sell it to somebody with an offline machine and we could both play which is technically in violation of the software license.
    .
    No, you could not in this case. Yes, you can install it on another machine and use it but, because you didn't have the disc in the first machine, you could not play it on that machine(needing the disc in the drive to play when off line). So, same as now, you would only be able to use the game on one machine at a time. So by selling this game, you would lose the possablity of playing this game, unless you digital download or buy another copy. Assuming MS would see serial numbers on the disk, after internet was restored, the 2nd system, unless they were family would not be able to play this game (unless it was transftered to their account of some type) depending on the license terms.

    Exactly the way it works now. Accept the game is tied to your account...or maybe only playable off line if you already had the game installed before internet goes out.

    I see your point but, there has to be a 1/2 way point to make everyone happy...


    Tell me about it - I got an infraction for saying an obvious troll should go back to his cave after you lambasted him with an awesome response.

    Please moderators, moderate. But do so in moderation.
    Yea, it's happend to me too but, this is off topic and should be taken up with the mod that gave you a warning... You can't call someone a troll but, you have to report them but, that never does anything from what I saw in the past.
    06-13-2013 11:42 AM
  9. tk-093's Avatar
    No, you could not in this case. Yes, you can install it on another machine and use it but, because you didn't have the disc in the first machine, you could not play it on that machine(needing the disc in the drive to play when off line). So, same as now, you would only be able to use the game on one machine at a time. So by selling this game, you would lose the possablity of playing this game, unless you digital download or buy another copy. Assuming MS would see serial numbers on the disk, after internet was restored, the 2nd system, unless they were family would not be able to play this game (unless it was transftered to their account of some type) depending on the license terms.

    Exactly the way it works now. Accept the game is tied to your account...or maybe only playable off line if you already had the game installed before internet goes out.

    I see your point but, there has to be a 1/2 way point to make everyone happy...
    But in order for it to work the "way it works now" you can't just have the disk as a back-up if you are offline, you need to require the disk 100% of the time otherwise I could install the game and use my online connection to validate and play without a disk and then give you the game and you could play offline with the disk in the drive. The only way to prevent that is to require the disk 100% of the time.

    If you require the disk 100% of the time, then I can't allow 9 other people on my family account to also play the game. I have a brother 3 hours away, with the XB1 we can be on the same family plan and each by different games and swap them. You can't do that when you require the disk to play.
    06-13-2013 11:48 AM
  10. Oliver Newell's Avatar
    People are blowing this WAY out of proportion. People. The device hasn't even hit the shelves yet. I love how people are making up their minds without even trying either of them, just going on rumours and first hand information, you can only take this with a pinch of salt, even if its from Microsoft. They are not stupid. They are moving with the times. The internet is everywhere now and its never ever going to go or decrease. As regards the military, im sure something will be done about that as regards the internet connection requirements. Personally I think the XBOX is going to wipe the PS4 off the ground. Microsoft isn't forcing you to buy the XBOX one when it comes out. You don't like it? Fine, get a PS4 and be disappointed with it or content.
    06-13-2013 11:49 AM
  11. oldpueblo's Avatar
    But in order for it to work the "way it works now" you can't just have the disk as a back-up if you are offline, you need to require the disk 100% of the time otherwise I could install the game and use my online connection to validate and play without a disk and then give you the game and you could play offline with the disk in the drive. The only way to prevent that is to require the disk 100% of the time.

    If you require the disk 100% of the time, then I can't allow 9 other people on my family account to also play the game. I have a brother 3 hours away, with the XB1 we can be on the same family plan and each by different games and swap them. You can't do that when you require the disk to play.
    And this right here is awesome. Add to that the fact that I no longer have to worry about physical discs being ruined by my kids and I'm sorry I'll take Internet checks all day long (like Steam) for that advantage and convenience. Steam logs out your account almost immediately when you login to another computer. My Internet almost never goes down. If it did I'd break out the board games. We are coming out ahead with this, not behind. EVERYONE can benefit from these new abilities whereas very few will feel the negative effects only at infrequent times. This is not designed for the few, but the many and the future. There are plenty of alternatives for offline lovers, don't screw the rest of us because of your choices/edge circumstances/stubbornness.

    To reiterate, my Internet "might" go down once a year. But I'll be enjoying the online sharing abilities every day of the year. Do the math.
    06-13-2013 12:14 PM
  12. tk-093's Avatar
    One thing I think we can all agree on is that Microsoft has not done the best sales job on all this stuff.
    06-13-2013 12:16 PM
  13. martinmc78's Avatar
    One thing I think we can all agree on is that Microsoft has not done the best sales job on all this stuff.
    I think they did a perfect sales job so far. Weve been told what the One can do - given demos of all the tv stuff and all the game stuff. Information on some of the finer points is available from xbox.com.

    There are things to be decided still but MS are saying more details will come before launch.

    Whats made it look bad is Sony with two lines "ON PS4 WE WONT HAVE DRM" & "$399 TO BUY"
    Oliver Newell likes this.
    06-13-2013 12:27 PM
  14. Mystictrust's Avatar
    Now, XB1 lets me toss away the disk after I install but has online checks. If it let me use the disk as a failsafe without internet, I could easily just install the game on an online machine and turn around and sell it to somebody with an offline machine and we could both play which is technically in violation of the software license.
    This could easily be solved by adding a setting within the system that allows you to shut off the game DRM for games with the disc in the drive, but at the time you pick the setting, do a quick online check-in to ensure your disc-based games are unique. All your disc-based games are then locked to your console and that information is sent to Microsoft, so if you give someone else your disc, they won't be able to authenticate or install/play the game. If you pop in a new, previously uninstalled game, the system will require you to pop online quickly to check that in, and ensure the game is unique and not belonging to anyone else. This way, there is still only one person able to play offline. If you want to sell your game, there could even be an area where you could unlock particular titles from your console (so, you wouldn't be able to play without checking it back in, but you could sell the disc)

    If you're in an area prone to internet outages, or you're paranoid, or you don't like connecting your console online very often... perform the process to check your games in so that they are available to you when internet isn't available. I would say even with this option available you could still connect and play online and do everything else, but if the internet went out, you would still have access to your disc-based games. And if your console couldn't check-in, shared games with your "10 family members" would cease to function, and you wouldn't be able to access your games on any other console without signing in to your own gamertag. Period.


    I also say they should keep the same system they have now for purely digital (i.e. XBLA) games: Allow them to be DRM-free on the first console they are downloaded to. Then again, they could have done away with that because there were people abusing that... *sigh*... some people just ruin it for all the honest ones, don't they? Still, it would be nice to have the option of restricting a digital game to one console, so you wouldn't be able to play it on a remote console with your friend (and they couldn't access game sharing of your game either), but it would at least be available for those with frequent internet outages. I take it there are a lot of people with internet outages though, from all the outrage, which is kind of sad in 2013 :( ISPs suck.
    Last edited by Mystictrust; 06-13-2013 at 01:03 PM.
    06-13-2013 12:45 PM
  15. BobLobIaw's Avatar
    I don't really care if MS loses a certain number of sales--who they want to market to is their own prerogative. If the system had stayed the same, I would have been fine with it even though I subsidize a lot of people working the angles because I actually buy the games and don't resell or give them to others. Now that the new model has been laid out, I support it mildly because it can only help by cutting out the freeloading kids in the basement passing the discs around to all their friends. Once again, I have nothing against those people but I'm not going to fight for their right to be subsidized by people like me. There is a possibility that the price of games will decrease or hold steady longer over the long run as many have observed. There is also the possibility that the fat cats get fatter. I recognize that and will react accordingly based on what happens. For now, I'm fine with it.

    As for the internet connection, I wouldn't worry to much. During the heyday of online gaming, a lot of underage youngsters figured out how to have an internet connection that was reliable 24/7. Almost a decade later, I don't really think checking in every 24 hours is as big of a problem as people are making it out to be.
    06-13-2013 01:08 PM
  16. Reflexx's Avatar
    One thing I think we can all agree on is that Microsoft has not done the best sales job on all this stuff.

    Hahahaha! Aint that the truth!

    That's the problem when you allow the media access to these business big wigs that aren't professional PR people.
    DavidinCT likes this.
    06-13-2013 01:19 PM
  17. Robert Carpenter's Avatar
    I think it's best you bring this up privately to the moderators, instead of publicly questioning their actions. You might get another infraction, or worse because of it.
    Last time I did that, I got another infraction lol. Whatever makes them feel like they have authority I guess.
    06-13-2013 01:29 PM
  18. DavidinCT's Avatar
    Last time I did that, I got another infraction lol. Whatever makes them feel like they have authority I guess.
    I was going to comment about this but, I decided I didn't want another infraction..... :)

    I don't really care if MS loses a certain number of sales--who they want to market to is their own prerogative.
    Really ? So, on release, Sony sells 4 million PS4s, and Microsoft only sells 1.2million X1s. Think about it. Who will get that next exclusive ? Oh, wait, they are releasing it for the PS4, not the X1...Oh, no !!! This publisher that did games for the 360 is going exclusuve to the PS4. So that is very important to all gamers... Like it or not.

    Personally, I would not care too much as I will have them both at one point. A lot of peole would care.
    06-13-2013 01:36 PM
  19. theeboredone's Avatar
    Despite all this bad PR and what not, I don't think the beginning is going to matter much. Xbox fans will get their X1 and Sony fans will get their PS4. I think what's important is what's going to happen after that. We tech people who've been paying attention to this stuff have some idea of how X1's DRM/lending games/family share thing works. I think MS needs to figure out how to properly explain this to Average Joe, because when parents and kids have trouble understanding all these policies...that is when you might see a bigger backlash in sales and what not.

    I mean, it's hard enough to explain to my mom, let alone my sister or brother that you can do this or that with your Iphone or GS3...I don't even want to get into it with people when it comes to all the stuff MS is doing.
    06-13-2013 02:18 PM
  20. BobLobIaw's Avatar
    Really ? So, on release, Sony sells 4 million PS4s, and Microsoft only sells 1.2million X1s. Think about it. Who will get that next exclusive ? Oh, wait, they are releasing it for the PS4, not the X1...Oh, no !!! This publisher that did games for the 360 is going exclusuve to the PS4. So that is very important to all gamers... Like it or not.

    Personally, I would not care too much as I will have them both at one point. A lot of peole would care.
    Good point. I guess I would restate that to say that I don't really care if MS loses some of their market share as long as they remain a viable competitor. I don't really see them plunging to those type numbers, but stranger things have happened.
    DavidinCT likes this.
    06-13-2013 02:27 PM
  21. nunyazz's Avatar
    I guess they need to come out with a version that runs on batteries too, for those who don't have electricity....
    06-13-2013 02:32 PM
  22. tk-093's Avatar
    This could easily be solved by adding a setting within the system that allows you to shut off the game DRM for games with the disc in the drive, but at the time you pick the setting, do a quick online check-in to ensure your disc-based games are unique.
    Not a bad option at all, actually. However the point of view a few of us have been discussing is the people who have zero access to the Internet. This method obviously would not work.

    Another solution I've seen mentioned, which I like, is also verify via the Smartglass app. If you XB1 can't get online, have it display a barcode which you use your Smartglass app to take a picture of to transmit to Microsoft which they will then display a barcode that you hold up to your manditory Kinect and BAM, you're back online already.

    Or, better yet. Your smartphone/tablet connects to your XB1 via WiFi Direct and basically "tethers" to verify. That way if I don't want my kid to have Internet in his room I just verify via my WP8/Droid/iPhone and he/she is up and running.
    06-13-2013 02:36 PM
  23. Bicpug's Avatar
    Comparisons with electricity are stupid, if the power goes out nothing is working. If you lose internet for a long period for any reason then hardware which is fully capable of functioning, doesn't.
    06-13-2013 02:45 PM
  24. DavidinCT's Avatar
    But in order for it to work the "way it works now" you can't just have the disk as a back-up if you are offline, you need to require the disk 100% of the time otherwise I could install the game and use my online connection to validate and play without a disk and then give you the game and you could play offline with the disk in the drive. The only way to prevent that is to require the disk 100% of the time.

    If you require the disk 100% of the time, then I can't allow 9 other people on my family account to also play the game. I have a brother 3 hours away, with the XB1 we can be on the same family plan and each by different games and swap them. You can't do that when you require the disk to play.
    Ok, think this way... Internet is down OR xbox live is down, You can't play your game on your local xbox. You have a game that is already installed to your system (X1 knows the game was installed on this console with this serial number disc), you put in the exact disc you installed to your system with. You can play that single player game fine on that system, your xbox 1 knows it's your game because it was already installed to your system before from that exact disc.

    This would limit to One system, one disc. This would posably solve most people's problem with it, as they would only need a internet connection to install the game(confirm on your account) and they can play local games on the system off line, WITH THE DISC in the drive.

    This would also not allow this disc to be installed to different machines and would make people with a good internet connection work like they said and it should solve almost everyone's problem with this.

    Another solution I've seen mentioned, which I like, is also verify via the Smartglass app. If you XB1 can't get online, have it display a barcode which you use your Smartglass app to take a picture of to transmit to Microsoft which they will then display a barcode that you hold up to your manditory Kinect and BAM, you're back online already
    Has Microsoft actually said anything like this ? Where you can verify via the Smartglass app ? This is a good workaround, does not solve my major issue with it but, it could solve a lot of people's temp issues. Tethering is not a option as I wont be willing to pay an extra $20-30 a month to Verizon to enable it on my phone and I am sure a lot of others feel the same.
    tk-093 likes this.
    06-13-2013 03:08 PM
  25. tk-093's Avatar
    Ok, I might have to process it more since my brian is on shutdown this week, but what you said makes sense.

    It does just address one type of scenario. It would not help anybody who just bought the new Halo game, gets home and finds out their internet is down, or the situation you mentioned above about people not having Internet at all. So that might be a workaround for somebody with it already installed, but then they need to come up with a workaround for the other options.

    I'm really hoping they will use SmartGlass to be that 24 hour check-in option if needed.

    p.s. I am enjoying this discussion.




    Ok, think this way... Internet is down OR xbox live is down, You can't play your game on your local xbox. You have a game that is already installed to your system (X1 knows the game was installed on this console with this serial number disc), you put in the exact disc you installed to your system with. You can play that single player game fine on that system, your xbox 1 knows it's your game because it was already installed to your system before from that exact disc.

    This would limit to One system, one disc. This would posably solve most people's problem with it, as they would only need a internet connection to install the game(confirm on your account) and they can play local games on the system off line, WITH THE DISC in the drive.

    This would also not allow this disc to be installed to different machines and would make people with a good internet connection work like they said and it should solve everyone's problem with this.
    06-13-2013 03:19 PM
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