06-21-2013 04:31 PM
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  1. curseoftheninja's Avatar
    The truth is that sony played their cards right when it came to the PR so they look like the heroes of gaming right now, but I don't see why everyone is automatically trusting them and saying that everything is going to be fine when they have left the DRM to the Publishers.
    I totally agree with this. Microsoft is painted as some money-hungry evil corporation trying to nickel-and-dime you. I see Microsoft abbreviated as M$ on many forums. And Sony isn't a money-hungry corporation? They have gone back on promises in the past; it boggles my mind that so many people instantly trust them.

    I actually think that much​ of the anger directed at Microsoft is less about DRM and more about "authentic gamer" vs "casual gamer." The "hardcore" loathe the Kinnect, for it is for casual kiddies. TV? For casual kiddies. I'm a GAMER. Like any sub-culture, they don't like posers. By Microsoft broadening its user base, the "hardcore" will be lumped in with the poser casuals. And that cannot do! Just look at other sites with forums bashing XBO because it has shooters. Shooters are for 'bros' that play Call of Duty, not REAL gamers. To me, it is more of an "us" vs. "them" attitude.

    I want the console that does the most: games and entertainment. That's why, whenever I do get a console, it'll be XBO.
    06-13-2013 08:15 PM
  2. Reflexx's Avatar
    The subculture is weird.
    curseoftheninja likes this.
    06-13-2013 09:52 PM
  3. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    I totally agree with this. Microsoft is painted as some money-hungry evil corporation trying to nickel-and-dime you. I see Microsoft abbreviated as M$ on many forums. And Sony isn't a money-hungry corporation? They have gone back on promises in the past; it boggles my mind that so many people instantly trust them.

    I actually think that much​ of the anger directed at Microsoft is less about DRM and more about "authentic gamer" vs "casual gamer." The "hardcore" loathe the Kinnect, for it is for casual kiddies. TV? For casual kiddies. I'm a GAMER. Like any sub-culture, they don't like posers. By Microsoft broadening its user base, the "hardcore" will be lumped in with the poser casuals. And that cannot do! Just look at other sites with forums bashing XBO because it has shooters. Shooters are for 'bros' that play Call of Duty, not REAL gamers. To me, it is more of an "us" vs. "them" attitude.

    I want the console that does the most: games and entertainment. That's why, whenever I do get a console, it'll be XBO.
    The subculture is weird.
    In some circles, the only "authentic gamer" is a PC gamer who builds his/her own custom gaming rig.
    Greg Gorby likes this.
    06-13-2013 10:10 PM
  4. Mystictrust's Avatar
    I totally agree with this. Microsoft is painted as some money-hungry evil corporation trying to nickel-and-dime you. I see Microsoft abbreviated as M$ on many forums. And Sony isn't a money-hungry corporation? They have gone back on promises in the past; it boggles my mind that so many people instantly trust them.
    Why haven't I seen Sony abbreviated as $ony? I at LEAST expected to see it in the comments somewhere on The Verge's article about PS4 requiring PS+ subscription for online game play... but nope. People were just like, "Ah well, PS+ is cool anyway, no biggie" - even if those same people were using it a few months ago as a point to attack how "lame" it is that "M$" charges for what should be free. Hmph.

    $ony has changed their minds and pissed off people plenty of times, but it's just not on the forefront of people's minds.**In the interest of not trying to start some anti-Sony bash, I've removed my mentions of some of their discretions, as they're not necessary** Anyway, play a few cards right with PR and everyone's back to painting Microsoft as the bad guy.

    And I totally, 100% agree with that sub-culture you mentioned. It's a bit crazy how that whole thing works. Wouldn't an authentic gamer be one who played a variety of games that interested him or her? What kind of gamer am I that can play a game of Crackdown, switch to Skyrim, play some Battlefield 3 online, maybe a little old school Battlefield: Bad Company, and then play Viva Pinata? I enjoyed myself jumping around at a friend's house on his Kinect, playing several of those crazy obstacle course type games side by side - what am I now? And then if I go pop in some Call of Duty and log 6 straight hours with my headset, barking out commands with a bunch of teammates? People are weird.

    I'm a 30 year old guy who likes video games. I don't quite understand this sub-culture war thing... okay, I would call someone a "casual gamer" if all they played was stuff like Angry Birds or puzzles games, and the occasional Dance Central or whatever... but I suppose that's just to classify them as being into the "lighter" games and not the really complex, "deep" games. They're still a gamer, and both systems casual to all kinds of gamers. I mean, don't we all win?
    06-13-2013 10:13 PM
  5. Mystictrust's Avatar
    In some circles, the only "authentic gamer" is a PC gamer who builds his/her own custom gaming rig.
    And the most vocal of those are downright some of the most annoying, elitist gamers ever. Constantly putting down manufacturers, gamers and their choice of system and games for it. Console gaming serves just as much of a purpose as PC gaming, they need to get off their high horses.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    06-13-2013 10:15 PM
  6. Ridemyscooter86's Avatar
    I am a gamer and personally, I like the PC the best because I feel like its the most diverse. I mean you have essentially a whole genre of games, like RPS, and MMO that don't really exist/aren't popular on consoles. I also much prefer mouse and keyboard for FPS as its much more accurate than a controller, but I much prefer a controller for action/adventure/3rd person games as it was designed for it, with my pc, I can have both, I just plug my xbox controller into my pc and it works instantly.

    PC gamers always brag and call it "true" gaming because its more hardcore than a console...what I mean by it is the pc game devs are always pushing graphics to its max limit and that a gaming PC is something that costs a lot more than a console does. Most PC gamers or a very big chunk of them, like me, build their own PCs for gaming. What I've come to realize is that they all offer different experiences, I love video games, and there are a lot, like FF, Halo, MGS, for example that aren't on PC and most likely never will be (yes those franchises have had a game or two on PC but are not games that are regularly ported to PC). Thats why I like to own a PC and a console so I can get all the games, and not just games that only appear on console only or PC only.

    As for what I'm going to do with the console wars: I'm going to wait. The biggest thing I'm most excited with the PS4 and the Xbone is that they are using x86 processors meaning, one can hope anyways, that pc ports will no longer be completely half-a**ed like they have been for years now. Some companies, like ubisoft, and yes EA, usually do a pretty good job porting games from console to PC, but then you get abominations, like Dark Souls, which was a fantastic game mired by a crappy port. Sure it was playable but explain to me why my PC game only runs at 720p resolution and maxes at 30fps...

    I'll wait because I'll go with whomever has the better exclusives, right now the xbone exclusives look a little better but that doesn't mean that sony doesn't have good looking ones in the pipeline either...
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    06-13-2013 10:37 PM
  7. Mystictrust's Avatar
    I also much prefer mouse and keyboard for FPS as its much more accurate than a controller, but I much prefer a controller for action/adventure/3rd person games as it was designed for it, with my pc, I can have both, I just plug my xbox controller into my pc and it works instantly.
    Nobody can deny the superior precision in gaming with a mouse, and a keyboard allows for a large array of easy-to-access features at your fingertips. I have a copy of Skyrim for my PC (also one for my Xbox, but I bought that one first) as well as a receiver so my wireless Xbox 360 controller works on my computer. Skyrim looks FANTASTIC on my PC... not that I can afford to crank it to ultra settings or anything (video cards are expensive). The mods available for it are out of this world.

    Consoles have their advantages as well, in a completely different subset: Everyone in every game on one console is united into one multiplayer network, communication is seamless across that network both in-game and out (without ensuring both parties have the same messaging service, as an example), games generally always "just work" without having to check specs or have high enough specs to run, unified services all under one roof. Xbox One is implementing game sharing, and that's something Steam doesn't have (as an example). I would argue that it's easier to just pick up and play, etc. etc. I'm not going to bother listing any more, but I also know there are tons of alternative or similar advantages for the PC. This is why I game on both, and I will be picking up Dishonored for the PC soon - looking forward to playing it. I hope my system can handle it honestly, I've been having some issues playing StarCraft 2 - I think some things are starting to die or are just too old to run some of this stuff (I built this machine myself in 2008)

    My current best setup for voice chat through StarCraft II is Skype.. I keep it open on a separate laptop with one or two friends I am playing alongside, also on Skype, with StarCraft II on my desktop PC and a headset on one ear so they can't hear my game and don't get distracted. Perfect :D
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    06-13-2013 10:56 PM
  8. HeyCori's Avatar
    I guess personally the reason why the DRM issue for the Xbox One doesn't bother me is because I'm a PC gamer and I've been using steam for years and you can't share games either and even though its offline check-ins are once a week, its only mildly better than once a day for the Xbox One. Also, I guarantee you that Sony won't allow you to share digitally purchased games, nor does anyone really for that matter of fact, but I don't think people in general realize how quickly physical media is dying: I mean, and this is just in my own case, but I think the last time I actually bought a disc for a game was about a year ago, and thats probably it...
    The death of physical media brings up another interesting point, infrastructure. Let's not forget that online entertainment has become just as important to console owners as the games themselves.

    Microsoft: entertainment overtakes multiplayer gaming on Xbox | The Verge

    Also keep in mind that the PS3 is the #1 device for streaming Netflix. It was also predicted that in 2012, online movie/music streaming would surpass physical discs. Consumers are exploiting non-gaming features and they're doing so in large numbers. I believe this E3 proved Microsoft is still all about the games, however, Microsoft wants to cater to the other very large portion of the market that wants more than just games. In time, as services improve, as internet continues to spread to rural areas and developing countries, Microsoft will have the infrastructure already in place to take advantage of new customers. They will already have distribution deals in place, rules to govern content and will have formed all the necessary alliances to make their system a success. Microsoft is one of the few companies ballsy enough to take bad press in order to gain long term success. It's the same strategy they're using with Windows 8. Eventually mobile APUs will reach the point where a tablet is the only computer a general consumer needs to buy because they will be powerful and battery efficient. Microsoft designed an OS to be ready for the future. The Xbox One is designed to usher in a new digital age. That does not make DRM awesome and I'm still not enthusiastic about it. However, I will adapt and move on. There is a bigger picture here and the DRM, while annoying, still serves a purpose. The sun is setting on physical media and Microsoft wants to be there when consumers and the infrastructure is ready. Sony may have won the PR fight but it remains to be seen if Sony can adapt to a world where consumers want more streaming content and services.
    Mystictrust and Laura Knotek like this.
    06-13-2013 10:58 PM
  9. jlzimmerman's Avatar
    People screaming about DRM and online checks every 24 hours funny. PC gamers have been in this realm (as I mentioned in another post) for years. BFD. If M$ can keep up or stay close to Sony as far as sales you will see more exclusives on XB1 because developers/publishers are going to be more lucrative on the console that keeps more strict tabs on their licenses.

    My number one concern with the new consoles were used games, because that's 90% of what I play. But with M$ stating you can still sell and buy used games via participating retailers, AND trade used games over BXL, AND trade with friends as long as they're on your friends list, you're ok. Problem solved for me. The extra $100 for the console will be worth it considering it will be spread over the life cycle of the console (6-8 years or more).

    People are just misinformed because M$ has done a typical terrible job with customer relation communication. Last night I corrected my brother-in-law and his son who said the PS4 will play their PS3 games. Ummmm, no, and I showed him sources. And then he proceeded to say you can't play used games on the new xbox. Ummmmm, no, and I showed him sources.
    curseoftheninja likes this.
    06-14-2013 08:01 AM
  10. DoyouFanBoyBro's Avatar
    I agree with you man, already pre ordered mine
    06-14-2013 08:06 AM
  11. Keith Wallace's Avatar
    People screaming about DRM and online checks every 24 hours funny. PC gamers have been in this realm (as I mentioned in another post) for years. BFD. If M$ can keep up or stay close to Sony as far as sales you will see more exclusives on XB1 because developers/publishers are going to be more lucrative on the console that keeps more strict tabs on their licenses.

    My number one concern with the new consoles were used games, because that's 90% of what I play. But with M$ stating you can still sell and buy used games via participating retailers, AND trade used games over BXL, AND trade with friends as long as they're on your friends list, you're ok. Problem solved for me. The extra $100 for the console will be worth it considering it will be spread over the life cycle of the console (6-8 years or more).

    People are just misinformed because M$ has done a typical terrible job with customer relation communication. Last night I corrected my brother-in-law and his son who said the PS4 will play their PS3 games. Ummmm, no, and I showed him sources. And then he proceeded to say you can't play used games on the new xbox. Ummmmm, no, and I showed him sources.
    Yes, people tolerate Steam, but that's because it's VERY rare that you have to pay $60 for a game after a couple of months. There is usually a sale shortly after launch. For example, I got Skyrim used on my 360 for $55. Not too long after that, it went on-sale on Steam, to coincide with the release of the game's PC Creation Kit. It was on-sale for $30 or $40, and it was such a good deal that I almost bought the game a second time, so I could experience player-made content on PC. I ended up deciding against it, but my point is that Steam offers great deals 100% of the time, which is why it's tolerated.

    Microsoft MIGHT take the same steps on the new Xbox, we will see. However, I won't give them credit for emulating Steam until I see them doing it. But also note that the ability to "trade with friends as long as they're on your friends list," is limited to a single transaction. The person must be on your friends list for 30 days to borrow the game, and it can only be borrowed once. Now, this 10-person family concept sounds like it could be a sharing free-for-all, and it will be a great feature, if it happens.

    I agree with you, though. People (myself included) are upset because Microsoft won't give them a reason not to be. They're LETTING the media throw gas on the fire, and they won't even grab an extinguisher. It's hard to not voice displeasure with their actions when they aren't even trying to defend them (and "buy a 360 if you don't like it, this is the future," isn't a legitimate response). If they want to earn goodwill and not get attacked by those on the Internet, point out things like the 10-person "family" that allows unchecked sharing of games, to significantly lower software costs for consumers.

    It's hard to give Microsoft any benefit of the doubt when they elected to point out all of the major negatives (the check-in, the cost, and the DRM), but not highlight the good stuff (like this sharing idea) with so many colors of highlighter markers that it makes 7 rainbows. They're allowing themselves to be attacked, when they should be taking the route that they are with windows Phone ads now--show off the benefits and features you can't get anywhere else.
    06-14-2013 10:15 AM
  12. MFmonster's Avatar
    I think its the mentality of the consumers. They're not ready for downloads only.
    The strange thing is, like OP mentioned, all our devices that include ipads/surfaces, phones, xbox and ps3 games and applications we cannot resell or trade in. The one thing MS did different is given everyone the option unlike the current state and devices, to trade, sell, or borrow. But, there will never be a "WOW, the new Xbox games I download I can resell now!"
    06-14-2013 11:20 AM
  13. Mystictrust's Avatar
    The one thing MS did different is given everyone the option unlike the current state and devices, to trade, sell, or borrow. But, there will never be a "WOW, the new Xbox games I download I can resell now!"
    wait hold on. Is that confirmed somewhere? Will I actually be able to sell digitally downloaded games that I never purchased the disc for??
    06-14-2013 11:32 AM
  14. gsquared's Avatar
    OP: If you are buying both consoles then wth's with the wall of text?
    06-14-2013 03:34 PM
  15. HeyCori's Avatar
    The man behind Gears of War comes out against used games. Says the current business model can't support ballooning cost of development.

    IGN News: Cliff Bleszinski Speaks Out On Used Games - IGN NEWS - IGN Video
    Robert Carpenter and Vallos like this.
    06-14-2013 03:38 PM
  16. HeyCori's Avatar
    OP: If you are buying both consoles then wth's with the wall of text?
    To give perspective to other people that might be looking.
    06-14-2013 03:38 PM
  17. EvilFiek's Avatar
    DRM is needed to enable used games selling, as easy as that. The 24h check-in is so that your licenses can still be verified. Without a 24h check-in or if it was a longer period of time (say a week or a month) you could easily buy the newest games, return them 10 minutes later and then go home and keep playing until you have to check-in for the next time. This is because Microsoft wants to go fully digital but obviously can't abandon the second-hand market because otherwise they won't end up being stocked at stores like Gamestop etc.

    Also, while I was initially negative towards the DRM, Microsoft is giving me something much more awesome in return, so I kinda stopped caring about it.Because their new family sharing plan is just super awesome. Basically, you create "gamer families" (you and up to 10 other people, who can be friends or family or whatever) and then you get access to one big shared game library, consisting of all the games. So if one of your friends buys Ryse and you don't own it, you can still play it.
    There are some restrictions (out of the 10 people that are part of your gamer family, only one can use one of your games at a time. this Reddit image explains it pretty well: http://i.imgur.com/Ayguitt.png) but I think this is really worth it. it's like lending between friends 2.0 Distance doesn't matter anymore, discs don't matter, just game away.

    In general I think what Microsoft is doing here is quite good and will drive the industry forward by eventually cutting out the middle-man (Gamestop makes several billions a year just by selling used games, that's several billions out of which a developer sees exactly 0$) while at the same time giving gamers new possibilities that would simply not work if Microsoft had went with the status quo.
    BobLobIaw and vertigoOne like this.
    06-14-2013 03:51 PM
  18. vertigoOne's Avatar
    Now that makes perfect sense. You always have access to your own games, only one of your "10" can access your shared library at once, not on a game by game basis but on a library by library basis. Pretty much the maximum amount of games that one person can share at any given time is 1. This will work great as long as half of your group owns the games you play as a group most often.
    06-14-2013 04:25 PM
  19. volcane2004's Avatar
    I don't think you understand what DRM is. It's short for Digital Rights Management. Even if you don't want it, it is essential when buying digital games. It is the way Microsoft or Sony manage digital rights. DRM-free essentially means you download a game and is yours to keep, copy, share, give, pirate, etc. Now music can have DRM-free songs because the margins they make on each individual song is so low that they can afford to have DRM-free songs. But you can't have that with games if each time someone distributes games on a torrent site, they are losing millions of dollars from potential buyers.
    06-14-2013 04:42 PM
  20. Mystictrust's Avatar
    their new family sharing plan is just super awesome. Basically, you create "gamer families" (you and up to 10 other people, who can be friends or family or whatever) and then you get access to one big shared game library, consisting of all the games. So if one of your friends buys Ryse and you don't own it, you can still play it.
    There are some restrictions (out of the 10 people that are part of your gamer family, only one can use one of your games at a time. this Reddit image explains it pretty well: http://i.imgur.com/Ayguitt.png) but I think this is really worth it. it's like lending between friends 2.0 Distance doesn't matter anymore, discs don't matter, just game away.
    Not quite so fast. That Reddit image is not the end-all-be-all. In fact, they are likely getting the idea from the line on the Xbox game licensing page, "You can always play your games, and any one of your family members can be playing from your shared library at a given time."

    You have to admit, that can be a little ambiguous... yay English language!

    Now let's move on over to one of the official Xbox Support twitter accounts (for reference, here's the link). I'll post a few snippets:

    @nowak911: @XboxSupport2 If myself and a friend are playing Battlefield, can a 3rd friend in our shared plan access Tomb Raider?
    @XboxSupport2: @nowak911 Yes, anyone in your "family" group can access the games library. How Games Licensing Works on Xbox One ^ML

    @nowak911: @XboxSupport2 If I have 5 games shared, can all 5 games be accessed by different "family" members at the same time?
    @XboxSupport2: @nowak911 Yep! You can can have 6 different consoles, with 6 different games being played by 6 different family members! :) ^ML

    @nowak911: @XboxSupport2 Just for further clarification, that's 6 consoles, 6 different games played, all simultaneous?
    @XboxSupport2: Correct. As long as they are part of the 10 family members. ^ML

    Unfortunately, that is STILL not the end-all-be-all on the matter. On the same account - and same thread actually, another employee (designated by a different two letter initials at the end of the tweet) posted more conflicting information:

    @nowak911: @XboxSupport Is access to the "shared library" concurrent? Can multiple accounts play different shared games simultaneously?
    @XboxSupport2: @nowak911 The only limitation to the number of players that can access a game at the same time is how the game is designed. ^KN

    And from a different thread on Twitter, we have the following:

    @dawez77: @XboxSupport2 sorry but that doesn't cover it, I just dont believe that up to ten ppl can play on the same license together on seperate sys.
    @XboxSupport2: @dawez77 As specified there, up to 10 family members can share your library. One other family member can play at the same time as you. ^BB

    I have one theory on this. Maybe it *is* just one at a time, but the conflicting reports are from tech support that work support over in the Philippines, and may have a little trouble understanding what some people are trying to say. At the same time, maybe it can be either 1 or everyone, depending on what the publisher of the game chooses, or how it is designed? Or maybe it's all 10, but the support rep who answer "one other family member at the same time" was only going off of the FAQ and nothing more.

    I'm not posting to say anything is definite, just that this has the possibility of being even better than you and one other person at a time. Your entire family may be able to share your entire game library, but maybe only you and one person can share the exact same game, while the others have to be on the other games in your library. We definitely need clarification here. Major Nelson has said the following in a tweet: "I am working on future blog posts w/ details for other #XboxOne features like family sharing etc."
    06-14-2013 07:31 PM
  21. Keith Wallace's Avatar
    I don't think you understand what DRM is. It's short for Digital Rights Management. Even if you don't want it, it is essential when buying digital games. It is the way Microsoft or Sony manage digital rights. DRM-free essentially means you download a game and is yours to keep, copy, share, give, pirate, etc. Now music can have DRM-free songs because the margins they make on each individual song is so low that they can afford to have DRM-free songs. But you can't have that with games if each time someone distributes games on a torrent site, they are losing millions of dollars from potential buyers.
    Actually, I think a bigger reason DRM-free is possible on CDs is that music is such a widespread medium. DRM isn't a big deal on consoles because the discs only work on consoles. However, if you were to lock down CDs with harsh DRM, it'd be difficult to own them. If you own an MP3 player, smartphone, laptop, desktop, and tablet, you might want your music library on that all. If you were limited to console-like restrictions (meaning no ripping and burning of the content, must have the disc to use it), it would be too much of a hassle to own CDs.

    In fact, that's a problem consumers face with DVDs. People complain about how difficult/illegal it is to take a DVD that you purchased (be it of a movie or a TV show), then get it onto a mobile device. It really sucks when you want to watch a movie you bought on your smartphone or tablet, but the overbearing DRM prevents you from getting the movie to it. That's part of why people will turn to torrenting, even in cases where they DID buy the movie. The media-rights owners have made movie and TV show purchases so difficult and inflexible that many don't even like to do it. They don't just torrent to save money, they do it because the legality of buying a DVD isn't worth the massive inconvenience of not getting to watch it when and where you want.
    06-14-2013 11:43 PM
  22. Keith Wallace's Avatar
    DRM is needed to enable used games selling, as easy as that. The 24h check-in is so that your licenses can still be verified. Without a 24h check-in or if it was a longer period of time (say a week or a month) you could easily buy the newest games, return them 10 minutes later and then go home and keep playing until you have to check-in for the next time. This is because Microsoft wants to go fully digital but obviously can't abandon the second-hand market because otherwise they won't end up being stocked at stores like Gamestop etc.
    Actually, a disc-based check-in system would work as an alternative, but people deem it too "archaic" to accept that alternative.

    As for the reason for not going all-digital, it's not just the used market. It's also because some people don't have good-enough Internet to support that system. As I was discussing earlier (I think in another thread), it would take 10 hours (maybe more) to install a, Xbox One game to a console on my 3Mbps DSL. It would be TERRIBLE for a little kid to open a new console on his birthday, then told he has to wait a whole day because his family's Internet isn't fast enough to install the game sooner.
    06-14-2013 11:47 PM
  23. theeboredone's Avatar
    06-15-2013 01:25 AM
  24. stevearsenault's Avatar
    As he mentions later on, this is for digital 360 games, which is already in place. It would not surprise me if they continued with One, though.
    06-15-2013 09:10 AM
  25. jaimeastin's Avatar
    Lets not forget it running flavors of windows and it being the x86 platform...

    More than used games, people may also hack the system...
    06-15-2013 09:17 AM
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