06-21-2013 03:31 PM
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  1. _Emi_'s Avatar
    I love how people like you complain and cant even tell the whole story... only the "bad" side. really, did you see this link and just post it without even verify what they were talking about? (I remember saw it somewhere else, oh yeah someone in twitch chat posted a pic of it :) ). but wow.. you seem like those people listening behind the doors and then telling everyone what you supposedly heard/understood, like if you heard the whole story.

    if you (and other ridiculous people) asked xbox support what they were talking about (before assuming crap), you would understand the talk wasn't even about xbox one, since still there isn't any ToU or anything yet (so they cant obviously talk about it) but the reply tweet says: [for example].
    @retardedidiots "Sorry for the confusion, that was in regards to Xbox 360. Xbox One licensing info is here: http://xbx.lv/XBOlcns ^AC" (which obviously wont say anything about hacking, banning, locking account since it hasn't been made public yet)


    but yeah of course "facepalm" /s

    Edit:

    I also found this: "We do not have info on that situation. Currently with Xbox 360 a permaban means you lose access to your downloaded games/DLC. ^CW" (it was all about the same thing, this time someone included "xbox one" in the tweet so that's why they said they had no info to share, also note it says PERMABAN, that means someone who is doing really stupid things.
    Not everyone gets a permaban, so if you behave correctly and respect the terms you agreed to, then you wont have to worry about anything)
    Last edited by _Emi_; 06-15-2013 at 09:41 AM.
    06-15-2013 09:22 AM
  2. Reflexx's Avatar
    Lets not forget it running flavors of windows and it being the x86 platform...

    More than used games, people may also hack the system...
    It's a closed system. You can't install just anything on it. It has to be approved.
    06-15-2013 09:36 AM
  3. Reflexx's Avatar
    People are trying way too hard to hate.
    palandri likes this.
    06-15-2013 09:36 AM
  4. theeboredone's Avatar
    I love how people like you complain and cant even tell the whole story... only the "bad" side. really, did you see this link and just post it without even verify what they were talking about? (I remember saw it somewhere else, oh yeah someone in twitch chat posted a pic of it :) ). but wow.. you seem like those people listening behind the doors and then telling everyone what you supposedly heard/understood, like if you heard the whole story.

    if you (and other ridiculous people) asked xbox support what they were talking about (before assuming crap), you would understand the talk wasn't even about xbox one, since still there isn't any ToS or anything yet (so they cant obviously talk about it) but the reply tweet says: [for example].
    @retardedidiots "Sorry for the confusion, that was in regards to Xbox 360. Xbox One licensing info is here: http://xbx.lv/XBOlcns ^AC" (which obviously wont say anything about hacking, banning, locking account since it hasn't been made public yet)

    but yeah of course "facepalm" /s
    First of all, my mistake on assuming it was for the X1. Second off, I should have posted more information, rather than just going to bed. Third, don't assume what I was thinking. My main thought of process was, "Wow, it would suck if someone got wrongfully banned and lost their games." Fourth, don't you even GROUP me with "those people". That's disrespectful on so many ways, because I've been doing my best on any "negative" articles I've posted to say things like "take it with a grain or salt" or providing some "fairness" for the other side.

    Don't you dare ever group me with "you people" ever again. Don't you ever call me "ridiculous" again. How about you read my other posts and see that I've been fair on providing solutions and assessments. I'm not like some of these guys who are going "LOL PS4" or "LOL X1". Geez.
    06-15-2013 09:38 AM
  5. Keith Wallace's Avatar
    1. Man, I wonder what it takes to get banned from LIVE. I really don't think that there is anything (except maybe using your account to attempt to hack into Microsoft's servers) that SHOULD warrant loss of game licenses. I could understand banning from online play for certain actions (cheating/hacking leaderboards), but unless you are actually using your console to maliciously harm the Xbox LIVE servers themselves, I'd be hard-pressed to think that a person has done something to warrant loss of single-player features. I don't make the policies, but I'd rather they make it so your account is banned from online multiplayer, but you can still ping servers to verify licenses and use apps. Heck, I would even say that I'd be OK with banning from communication apps (like Skype), maybe all online-based apps, but banning from single-player play because you called someone a name would be some extreme punishment.

    2. I like the guy who said, "I have a tear on this blanket, it is really gonna cost me $10000 to patch it?" That they charge developers $10,000 to patch a game is rather ridiculous. I mean, that will either hurt consumers with higher prices to make up for that, or entirely drive away smaller developers who cannot guarantee to even break the $10,000 barrier on sales. They're all about the ridiculous policies.
    06-15-2013 10:38 AM
  6. stevearsenault's Avatar
    1. Heck, I would even say that I'd be OK with banning from communication apps (like Skype), maybe all online-based apps, but banning from single-player play because you called someone a name would be some extreme punishment.
    The support rep is talking about permabans. You would have to do a lot more than call someone a bad name to be permabanned. As previously mentioned, that policy is for Arcade and Games On Demand for the 360, and no such policy has been disclosed for the One just yet.

    2. I like the guy who said, "I have a tear on this blanket, it is really gonna cost me $10000 to patch it?" That they charge developers $10,000 to patch a game is rather ridiculous. I mean, that will either hurt consumers with higher prices to make up for that, or entirely drive away smaller developers who cannot guarantee to even break the $10,000 barrier on sales. They're all about the ridiculous policies.
    It's actually more around $40,000, and it costs the same for developers to patch on Playstation as well, so it's not exclusive to MS.
    Last edited by stevearsenault; 06-15-2013 at 11:08 AM.
    06-15-2013 10:48 AM
  7. Mystictrust's Avatar
    I was under the impression that the permabans required things like logging into Xbox live with a hacked and modified console and other such offenses...perhaps now the reason for doing that would be to try and sidestep their DRM, so the punishment is severe.

    I do not think they ever permabanned anyone for in-game infractions, such as being incredibly racist and harassing excessively in a racist manner. The length of time for the bans started from 24 hour ban and ranged to much, much further based on repeated offenses, but I don't ever think that was permanent
    06-15-2013 11:32 AM
  8. Keith Wallace's Avatar
    The support rep is talking about permabans. You would have to do a lot more than call someone a bad name to be permabanned. As previously mentioned, that policy is for Arcade and Games On Demand for the 360, and no such policy has been disclosed for the One just yet.

    It's actually more around $40,000, and it costs the same for developers to patch on Playstation as well, so it's not exclusive to MS.
    1. I know it's related to the 360, I'm just wondering what it would take to have that happen. I'd imagine that several offenses of verbal abuse could do it, in their book.

    2. That's ridiculous. I also would like to see some proof of that, if you can provide it, because I don't believe that the vast majority of indie developers could afford $40,000. That, and Microsoft also has the issue that they won't allow developers to self-publish, apparently. I don't remember where the article was (I'll have to see if I can find it), but there was an article about how the developers of Day Z and Abe's Oddysee New N' Tasty both wanted to bring those games to the Xbox One. In fact, they even got the games together, but Microsoft won't allow the m to self-publish the titles. Without getting under the wing of EA or someone like that, Microsoft won't allow them to put their already-made games onto the console, just because they want to publish the games themselves. That's pretty strange.
    06-15-2013 11:33 AM
  9. stevearsenault's Avatar
    To get permabanned requires something like hacking someone's account or exposing yourself on video chats (UNO was notorious for that).

    As for patch fees: Interview: Schafer's Millions

    “But the indie community is now moving elsewhere; we’re figuring out how to fund and distribute games ourselves, and we’re getting more control over them. Those systems as great as they are, they’re still closed. You have to jump through a lot of hoops, even for important stuff like patching and supporting your game. Those are things we really want to do, but we can’t do it on these systems. I mean, it costs $40,000 to put up a patch – we can’t afford that! Open systems like Steam, that allow us to set our own prices, that’s where it’s at, and doing it completely alone like Minecraft. That’s where people are going.”
    That is for Xbox 360 and PS3, so it is possible that Microsoft (and I'm sure Sony as well) is charging less for patches this console generation, but it certainly is nothing new to developers.
    06-15-2013 11:43 AM
  10. Keith Wallace's Avatar
    To get permabanned requires something like hacking someone's account or exposing yourself on video chats (UNO was notorious for that).

    As for patch fees: Interview: Schafer's Millions



    That is for Xbox 360 and PS3, so it is possible that Microsoft (and I'm sure Sony as well) is charging less for patches this console generation, but it certainly is nothing new to developers.
    Are you sure that his statement came with no embellishment and was indicative of 100% of games on both platforms? Maybe it was $40,000 for a game with a certain amount of sales, maybe it's a $10,000 base (because I've seen that number reported elsewhere), but if you make it to 100,000 sales, it costs more?
    06-15-2013 11:48 AM
  11. stevearsenault's Avatar
    No Fez fix after Microsoft demands "a ton of money" to fix bug | News | Edge Online

    The $10,000 probably comes from Phil Fish's comment last year when he said that the patch for would cost "tens of thousands", which meant the $40,000. From what I've read, Sony is waiving the patch fees altogether this generation, so they have the advantage there as well.
    06-15-2013 12:01 PM
  12. Mystictrust's Avatar
    there was an article about how the developers of Day Z and Abe's Oddysee New N' Tasty both wanted to bring those games to the Xbox One. In fact, they even got the games together, but Microsoft won't allow the m to self-publish the titles. Without getting under the wing of EA or someone like that, Microsoft won't allow them to put their already-made games onto the console, just because they want to publish the games themselves. That's pretty strange.
    Here is what I don't get about that... You already CAN publish indie games to Xbox Live. I even got a freaking subscription to do it about 2 years ago (subscription has since expired and I haven't looked into renewing). As a student, they waived the fee, but it costs $99 per year. I believe it is lumped in with the Windows Phone development subscription, but then again... Things could have changed since then. Still, there are indie games on Xbox Live and you DON'T need to contact Microsoft somehow and sell them on your game or whatever it is that people seem to be getting the impression of.

    I guess, unless some indie devs want to pay to get their games out in XBLA and aren't able to do it. That would make more sense to me. Still, that 99 cent indie game "I MAED A GAME WITH ZOMBIES IN IT!!!1!1!!" made over a million dollars in sales, and there have been other fairly popular games such as Castleminer Z... Can't think of any others off the top of my head, but I bought one that I think was called Lumi. I kept playing over and over until the time limit for playing was up, so I just decided to break down and buy it.

    Still, even though MS doesn't highlight their indie games as much as they should (they definitely need to improve that), they exist, uploaded by the devs themselves without talking to Microsoft, and there is a section within games for Indie. And you can even search for specifically Indie titles only.
    06-15-2013 12:16 PM
  13. Keith Wallace's Avatar
    Yeah, but the Xbox One is dumping the XBLA brand, so it might be that there is going to be a sweeping policy change. I'm not sure how that stuff works, it's just what those developers had said.
    06-15-2013 12:24 PM
  14. Ridemyscooter86's Avatar
    I have a game dev friend that told me the same thing about xbla where with the developer fee, you get 1 update/patch to a game and after that it costs something like 20-40 thousand to put another update on. I still don't understand why because it couldn't possibly cost that much to update a game when game patches are usually small?
    06-17-2013 12:22 PM
  15. vertigoOne's Avatar
    I have a game dev friend that told me the same thing about xbla where with the developer fee, you get 1 update/patch to a game and after that it costs something like 20-40 thousand to put another update on. I still don't understand why because it couldn't possibly cost that much to update a game when game patches are usually small?
    Maybe to discourage the upload of incomplete and buggy games? If Sony is waiving this fee altogether, then it likely also means that their verification process is most likely non-existent as well. This leaves it up to the gamers to determine whether or not they want to gamble their money on the completeness of the games that they are downloading. I do think that this cost should scale with the scope of the game though, $40,000 seems very high for indie or casual games.
    06-17-2013 12:34 PM
  16. Reflexx's Avatar
    I have a game dev friend that told me the same thing about xbla where with the developer fee, you get 1 update/patch to a game and after that it costs something like 20-40 thousand to put another update on. I still don't understand why because it couldn't possibly cost that much to update a game when game patches are usually small?
    That policy is in place to discourage developers from putting up buggy games. The idea was that the game should be tested very well before even the first submission.

    Then after that, they'll have one opportunity to fix bugs.

    But if there was no fee, the fear was that devs would do the minimum work to get it released, however incomplete it might be. Then fix bugs later, using the consumer as their testing lab.

    Unfortunately, because many small devs don't have a lot of people that test their game, they've been doing exactly what was being discouraged. Just get the game out by a certain date. Hurry! (sometimes due to pressure from a publisher)

    Then problems certainly arise.

    A dev might use their free patch opportunity quickly, to show customers that they are attentive (and maybe out of some guilt from releasing a messed up game). They may have discovered bugs shortly after release, even before the complaints start coming in.

    Then after that round, there are the harder to catch bugs that turn up. And the dev already used their fix.

    There needs to be a middle ground.

    MS still doesn't want devs to just push games that aren't finished. But MS has to understand that publishers may force that on smaller devs.
    06-17-2013 01:34 PM
  17. Keith Wallace's Avatar
    I get trying to avoid buggy game releases, but a flat rate is iffy in this instance. It completely removes some developers from the ecosystem, quality not considered, because the volume of sales will not make up for that cost to patch the game. Also ,is it $40,000 PER PATCH, or $40,000 for all patches after the first? Those are very different things, and if it's the former, I don't see how indie developers could survive on the platform. IT would basically mean that for a $10 indie game, they need 4,000 sales per patch.
    06-17-2013 04:47 PM
  18. Mystictrust's Avatar
    I love how people like you complain and cant even tell the whole story... only the "bad" side. really, did you see this link and just post it without even verify what they were talking about? <snip> @retardedidiots "Sorry for the confusion, that was in regards to Xbox 360. Xbox One licensing info is here: http://xbx.lv/XBOlcns ^AC" (which obviously wont say anything about hacking, banning, locking account since it hasn't been made public yet)
    I also found this: "We do not have info on that situation. Currently with Xbox 360 a permaban means you lose access to your downloaded games/DLC. ^CW"
    Well, I wouldn't go ahead and fault everyone for 'jumping to conclusions'... not when the original question included XBOX ONE in it. Really, if you think about it, if an xbox support rep tells you something, are you supposed to say, "Okay, thank you very much. I'll wait until your company confirms it, this doesn't sound correct" - no, you're going to take them at face value. It *is* Microsoft. It's just unfortunate that their support team, well some of them... have a.. hard time understanding... things. Hmm, I'll leave it at that.

    Either way, it doesn't matter. As you probably know by now, Major Nelson was asked this question in an interview and he confirmed that you WILL be able to keep your games, even if you are completely banned from the system.
    06-17-2013 07:22 PM
  19. theeboredone's Avatar
    Don Mattrick admitting X1 is "flopping" currently.

    06-17-2013 09:08 PM
  20. JonnieLasVegas's Avatar
    Don Mattrick admitting X1 is "flopping" currently.

    Well played sir!
    06-17-2013 09:14 PM
  21. HeyCori's Avatar
    Don Mattrick admitting X1 is "flopping" currently.

    I can't believe he said that!
    06-17-2013 09:36 PM
  22. ncxcstud's Avatar
    From what I've gathered, that $40,000 (or whatever) isn't just setup as a 'block/deterrant' of buggy games. It isn't JUST a high hurdle/hoop developers have to jump through to get a patch. But, the patch pays for the testing to make sure that A) the game works as the patch is intended and B) makes sure that the new patch doesn't mess up anything else related to a users gaming experience on their console (a part from the specific game that was patched).

    If you've ever looked into the XBOX Live Indie Arcade (where there is self-publishing) there is a LOAD of crap. Lots and lots and lots of crap games. In fact, the only one I've played that I've enjoyed is ArcadeCraft (which is awesome btw). Other than that its a bunch of really terrible games.

    Now, each of those games have given those (I only hope) beginner developers some experience, and this new system definitely limits that... but we'll see...

    Does that mean the PS4 is going to have all these terrible games now too?
    06-18-2013 09:24 AM
  23. curseoftheninja's Avatar
    Does that mean the PS4 is going to have all these terrible games now too?
    This was my thought when Sony announced self-publishing. This has the potential of having a ton of useless games flooding the Sony marketplace.
    06-18-2013 09:40 AM
  24. Reflexx's Avatar
    Don Mattrick admitting X1 is "flopping" currently.

    This was a life changing video.
    06-18-2013 01:12 PM
  25. Necroscope's Avatar
    E3 is essentially over. Its unlikely that Microsoft or Sony will make any other game changing announcements before the fall.
    Ha ha...never say never!!

    Then again, Im also buying both consoles because choosing only one system is so 2006, lol.
    Unfortunately, I am going to be buying this console in a 2013 economy. God bless anyone who has the disposable income they had in 2006!
    06-21-2013 03:31 PM
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