07-01-2013 03:28 PM
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  1. Polychrome's Avatar
    Now they just need to offer a Digital only version, with no resale/lending on it, for $40 or less, which once purchased doesn't need the 24 hour callback stuff. Bobs your uncle, i go completely DD for my xbox games.
    Part of me thinks that if they really wanted to stick it to Gamestop, they should offer digital downloads at a low price like this, BUT, disk games should still be $60.
    06-25-2013 12:27 AM
  2. EchoRedux's Avatar
    Why errybody so mad at gamestop? They buy games at a price people are willing to take, assume the risks of owning it, and sell games at a price people are willing to pay. Don't like it? Use ebay or craigslist.
    The Hustleman likes this.
    06-25-2013 12:25 PM
  3. Keith Wallace's Avatar
    Why errybody so mad at gamestop? They buy games at a price people are willing to take, assume the risks of owning it, and sell games at a price people are willing to pay. Don't like it? Use ebay or craigslist.
    They rake in money and offer no cut to the publishers and developers, from whom they are taking income with each sale. That's while those publishers and developers are letting GameStop get a cut of the new game sales by supplying them to the GameStop stores. On top of that, it's not that they're offering a price that people are willing to take happily. It's a matter that they have a borderline monopoly on the market Craigslist is WAY too sketchy to trust, and eBay is a big hassle with having to pay a fee to sell something and deal with shipping.

    GameStop only survives because there is no reasonable alternative to it. If digital games sell at $50 or less, then they're going to get slaughtered in the long run.
    DavidinCT and curseoftheninja like this.
    06-25-2013 12:45 PM
  4. Robert Carpenter's Avatar
    Why errybody so mad at gamestop? They buy games at a price people are willing to take, assume the risks of owning it, and sell games at a price people are willing to pay. Don't like it? Use ebay or craigslist.
    "Here we observe the clueless consumer in its natural habitat."
    06-25-2013 12:58 PM
  5. EchoRedux's Avatar
    They rake in money and offer no cut to the publishers and developers, from whom they are taking income with each sale. That's while those publishers and developers are letting GameStop get a cut of the new game sales by supplying them to the GameStop stores. On top of that, it's not that they're offering a price that people are willing to take happily. It's a matter that they have a borderline monopoly on the market Craigslist is WAY too sketchy to trust, and eBay is a big hassle with having to pay a fee to sell something and deal with shipping.

    GameStop only survives because there is no reasonable alternative to it. If digital games sell at $50 or less, then they're going to get slaughtered in the long run.
    Looks like gamestop lost 269.8 million dollars last year which ended Feb 2, 2013. They're raking in the dough! Gamestop sells new games, and used games, so yes, dev's get their cut on new games. Dev's also build used games into their price, so yes, that initial cut covers the used games market. Gamestop is just a medium used in the aftermarket. Hey, does Ford get a cut if someone trades their car in to the dealer? Do they get a cut when the dealer sells it? What about used books? Where's the cut to the author and publisher? What makes game developers special?

    You guys complain about a business that's providing a good service, hires employees, has to pay rent, utilities, etc, takes on risks... it's not guaranteed that the used games they buy will sell anyways. Seriously, stop complaining.
    The Hustleman likes this.
    06-25-2013 01:23 PM
  6. EchoRedux's Avatar
    "Here we observe the clueless consumer in its natural habitat."
    I don't find you very informed :P
    06-25-2013 01:23 PM
  7. Polychrome's Avatar
    Why errybody so mad at gamestop? They buy games at a price people are willing to take, assume the risks of owning it, and sell games at a price people are willing to pay. Don't like it? Use ebay or craigslist.
    Dunno about mad. I used to work for them, and their shop was clean enough. Certainly not the bastion of evil people make them out to be.

    However, there's no doubt that they push used copies over new copies. If it's happening to the point that it's hurting the developers, I'm gonna have to side with the developers. Without games there'd be no Gamestop in the first place.
    06-25-2013 01:29 PM
  8. Courtney S's Avatar
    @EchoRedux check out when you get a chance.

    The guy goes in depth on why the used game market, particularly gamestop, is bad for game developers. It's mainly the fact that most other media has various revenue streams through royalties and such. With console games, there is only the initial purchase (i'm purely talking about the game, not any DLC or other purchasable content)
    06-25-2013 01:40 PM
  9. HeyCori's Avatar
    Looks like gamestop lost 269.8 million dollars last year which ended Feb 2, 2013. They're raking in the dough! Gamestop sells new games, and used games, so yes, dev's get their cut on new games. Dev's also build used games into their price, so yes, that initial cut covers the used games market. Gamestop is just a medium used in the aftermarket. Hey, does Ford get a cut if someone trades their car in to the dealer? Do they get a cut when the dealer sells it? What about used books? Where's the cut to the author and publisher? What makes game developers special?

    You guys complain about a business that's providing a good service, hires employees, has to pay rent, utilities, etc, takes on risks... it's not guaranteed that the used games they buy will sell anyways. Seriously, stop complaining.
    The car analogy is flawed. Cars suffer from wear-and-tear that require more money to fix. Tires that need to be replaced. Plates and insurance that need to purchased.

    Disc based video games suffer from none of this. You'll never have to pay to fix wear-and-tear on level 3 or pay to keep the multi-player servers running. It's actually all explained in the video posted above.

    And anyone that wants to read GameStop's full report can.

    GameStop Reports Sales and Earnings for Fiscal 2012 and Provides 2013 Outlook | News from GameStop
    06-25-2013 02:32 PM
  10. EchoRedux's Avatar
    @Courtney S, I'm not watching a couple of gamers on a 30 minute youtube video. Give me the summary of their main points please.

    @HeyCori, Actually, there are incredible similarities in both games and cars. Both depreciate while new and on the lot (I bought Morrowind new at Best Buy for 20 bucks a year after it came out). Neither have infinite life. Both have wear and tear, discs scratch and become unusable. Both have used markets, and neither industry gives the manufacturer/developers cuts in the used market. Yes, used games hurt new game sales, and yes, used cars hurt new car sales.

    The point I made was that car manufacturers don't get a cut on used auto sales, like game devs on used game sales. How is it flawed, and how does wear and tear have anything to do with anything? If something has wear and tear, the maker isn't allowed to a cut? I don't follow. As explained already, I disagree with your claim that discs do not suffer from wear and tear.


    Income statement starts on page F-5
    GAMESTOP CORP. (GME) 10-K and 10-Q SEC Filings :: Last10K.com
    06-25-2013 03:05 PM
  11. HeyCori's Avatar
    Depreciation between a used car and a disc aren't even remotely close. The rest of your argument fails at the mere attempt of even making such a claim.
    DavidinCT likes this.
    06-25-2013 04:08 PM
  12. EchoRedux's Avatar
    Depreciation between a used car and a disc aren't even remotely close. The rest of your argument fails at the mere attempt of even making such a claim.
    Well if that's your response so be it. If you ever want to grow up and have an actual discussion, refute my claim. Oh and yes, they are very close. Both time and use depreciate the value of both products. Oh and let's say they depreciate at different rates. Why should developers get a cut of used sales while automakers don't?
    06-25-2013 04:44 PM
  13. HeyCori's Avatar
    Well if that's your response so be it. If you ever want to grow up and have an actual discussion, refute my claim. Oh and yes, they are very close. Both time and use depreciate the value of both products. Oh and let's say they depreciate at different rates. Why should developers get a cut of used sales while automakers don't?
    No. The math flat out does not work out. My Sega CD games from 1992 run perfectly, no tune-ups required. Find me a car from 1992 that has never had any work done on it and still runs perfectly. And while you're at it, make sure the car manufacturer is still paying for the server in case you want to drive with multiple people. Then you can start making a fair comparison. So, like I said, it's not even remotely close. Refuting your points would be me re-posting exactly what I started with.

    I would also watch it with telling other people to "grow up." It's considered a Personal Attack and you will receive an infraction for it.
    06-25-2013 05:27 PM
  14. EchoRedux's Avatar
    No. The math flat out does not work out. My Sega CD games from 1992 run perfectly, no tune-ups required. Find me a car from 1992 that has never had any work done on it and still runs perfectly. And while you're at it, make sure the car manufacturer is still paying for the server in case you want to drive with multiple people. Then you can start making a fair comparison. So, like I said, it's not even remotely close. Refuting your points would be me re-posting exactly what I started with.
    Again, the topic is that car manufacturers do not receive a cut for used car sales. Why do repairs and maintenance make it a prerequisite for different treatment? That's what I'm asking.

    You brought up your Sega games from the early 90s. How much were they when you originally bought them? What are they worth now? According to amazon, I can get the original Sonic for the Genesis for $4.00-$8.00. Heck, I even see varying conditions. I don't think the devs are paying for servers to host Sonic for Genesis anyways. Fact is games break down, scratch up and eventually become unusable. Games depreciate when they're new and when they're used. But to get back on topic, why does any of this even matter when discussing why devs deserve a cut while auto manufacturers or just about any other business doesn't.

    Hey, say I buy a car with a 10 year warranty. I sell the car to someone else 5 years after I buy it, and that new driver gets the remainder of the warranty too. Gamer buys an online game, the devs promise to support the servers for a period of time. Gamer sells the game, so the second gamer gets the remainder of the server support.

    Again, similarities arise. So I ask you, why should the gaming industry be held to different standards than the automobile and book industries? You can agree or disagree with me that games do not need maintenance and repairs, but why would this lead to a need for different standards regarding selling the products used?

    I would also watch it with telling other people to "grow up." It's considered a Personal Attack and you will receive an infraction for it.
    Duly noted.
    06-25-2013 06:01 PM
  15. HeyCori's Avatar
    Buying a used car puts you at significant financial disadvantage. You have to make repairs and those repairs can run into the thousands. There is no way around that. In 20+ years I've never buffed any of my Sega CD games and they still work perfectly. And if I had to get one buffed I'm positive it wouldn't run into the thousands. The scale between cars and games does not work. The math does not compute. Buying a game used will not put you at a financial disadvantage like buying a used car will.

    The point I was making about the servers is that those servers cost money to run. That wasn't a big deal in 1984 but it is now. Devs are losing money because players that buy used can still play online without contributing to the costs of running those servers.

    Mind you, I'm not against the used market. But I do sympathize with devs that want players to buy new as much as possible. Not that the used market should be eliminated.
    06-25-2013 06:17 PM
  16. Polychrome's Avatar
    What Cori is saying is that car manufacturers *do* have an avenue from which to collect on used cars, and that's in repairs and spare parts. No, not every customer goes to the dealer, but a lot of money still finds its way to the manufacturer. Buying a used car may set you back a fair amount of money if you're not careful, if the car hasn't been properly taken care of, or if you want body work or customizations.

    If a DVD hasn't been properly taken care of? You surface the disk for $2 at Hastings and move on with your life. And even if it's beat up it will usually play flawlessly. It takes decades for a CD or DVD to wear out just from basic use. A car needs constant care, and an old beat-up one will have a lot more trouble running than an old disk.
    06-25-2013 08:15 PM
  17. Mystictrust's Avatar
    To kind of inject my opinion into the center of EchoRedux & HeyCori's little back and forth spat here, I don't think a car is a good/fair analogy to compare against devs deserving residuals on used games - it's an entirely different business model. This is going to be a long post, so FYI.

    Cars are generally sold at or above cost for a physical product. If you've done any sort of research into what a dealership might pay for a new car (and used that information to haggle down prices, as I have) then you definitely know this. Still, I realize that there are dealerships that operate on an extremely thin profit margin, or even sell below cost - making up for the cost on things such as interest on financing, upselling of low cost features, extended warranties, etc. Naturally, the bulk of the wholesale price of a vehicle is beyond the relatively cheap manufacturing cost, paying things such as employee salaries, marketing, and the technology that drives the factories - operating expenses. A ton of that cost, and high markup beyond the low manufacturing cost is made at purchase - a consumer is putting up a huge amount of cash for a vehicle all at once.

    The physical cost of the disc that a game is on, in volume, is probably pennies - though I suppose you could argue that compared to low costs of auto manufacturing it's similar. A video game development studio incurs costs from licensing game engines, investing in new technologies, game development over a period of years (per game title, for many games), etc. Well technically, to be fair, a publisher will generally take care of licensing costs and such, but it's still part of the overall cost of a game. The publisher that finances the developers has a variety of costs and things to watch out for. As an example, if the developers assure the publisher that a game will be ready by X date, and the publishers market the crap out of it (as they need to, for future sales), the developers might run into a bunch of bugs or development issues that delay the game, resulting in a bunch of pissed off people who generally kind of "move on". Excitement dissipates, sales aren't as spectacular as they could have been, etc etc. Large sales of games typically seem to happen in a relatively short window of time, and things move extremely fast in the gaming world. Gamers are also fickle. If you can't capture that window, you might be sunk. And look at games like Tomb Raider - made $6 million, which wasn't enough and a bunch of terminations were the result of that fiasco. AAA games can cost in the double digit millions to produce, increasingly more so with the demands from gamers (as well as purchasing habits). But AAA games sell at a cost MUCH, MUCH, MUCH smaller than that. There is no "extended warranty" on a game, no money to be made on financing. I suppose you could equate bonus features on a car to DLC, but I would argue that DLC costs more to produce and market than a Bluetooth/technology package on a car. And takes away time from working on the next title to keep the development company afloat.

    So... $60 (or maybe around $50 wholesale) for millions in development cost, and that $60 has to cover everything. Well, multiplied by a TON of gamers.

    There are also around 24 auto manufacturers in the entire US right now (according to Wikipedia). There are 79 game developers in my city alone (Austin, TX - according to gamedevmap.com. Unsure of accuracy). Not all devs spend double digit millions on games, but every single one of them is subject to the intricacies of putting their games on the market. They all have short windows to capture gamer's short and fickle attention spans. They all need to get their game in as many stores as possible, and find a way to make it interesting enough so that Gamestop Employee #5254 doesn't steer an interested gamer over to the new Call of Duty instead. Profit margins are spread thinly throughout all of these development studios, hundreds of them. Not a fair comparison, you might say? Then check out the list of game publishers in the US, and forget about individual developers. There are a lot according to Wikipedia, though I'm not going to bother counting how many. It's more than 24. Okay, scratch that, I don't want to look like a fool here, there are about 83 actively independent US game publishing companies, and that is not counting those that are a subsidiary of a larger publishing company. All of those are developing using in-house studios, or financing the development of games with game development companies.

    Walk into a Honda dealership for a new car, and only Honda makes the profit on your new car. Walk into a Gamestop, and there are hundreds of other game development studios vying for your attention... and it's kind of hard to get a free test drive out of a game, so some people only go with a Gamestop employee recommendation or pretty box art and sometimes a solid marketing pitch on the back of the game box.

    To summarize my comparison, an auto manufacturer is not subject to the same types of struggles that the game industry is when it comes to selling their product. A car is also kind of a necessity for a large percentage of the population in developed countries. A video game is not. I think a much fairer comparison would be of games to movies, also part of the entertainment industry. There are a ton of movie studios all over the US, obviously with a huge cluster down in the Los Angeles region. Movies are given HUGE budgets in double and triple digit millions, and sell tickets to those movies at extremely low prices, and DVDs for those movies at extremely low prices (relatively). There are publishing companies that market and sell the movies, while financing the filming and production of these movies through studios both big and small. They are subject to fickle audiences with picky tastes in movies, marketing to draw in the crowds with a limited release window, and there are problems if a movie gets delayed and interest is lost.

    Yet, movies make residuals and have other sources of income as well. If I pay $8 - $12 for a movie at the theater and it blows me away, I'm going to pay for the DVD/Blu-ray disc. Or I'm going to pay for a digital download on my Xbox or Amazon or wherever. There's also residual income from royalties whenever a network like HBO airs the movie, or Netflix secures the rights to stream the movie on their network (after paying a large chunk of upfront cash)

    The production of games seems to play out in a similar fashion to the production of movies (albeit with smaller crews, and developers in place of actors) and financially I argue that it is similar. The games themselves also have storylines and most tell a story just like in a movie. Some have movies in them. Some basically are movies. And Quantum Break is quite literally combining both (yet TV small screen instead of movie big screen). However, games do not get residuals and do not have any secondary source of revenue. The publishers and developers quite literally only get income once. They basically are forced to sell in supremely large quantities to make up for everything in guaranteed sales, and hope that DLC can help keep continued sales up (word of mouth, more PR about an extension to a popular game, etc).

    I think game developers have it rough. Heh, and despite the high rate of employment rotation and pressure, I still somehow want to break in to the games industry for a career.

    TL;DR Used game residuals and game development is closer to movie production and residual income in that part of the entertainment industry than auto car sales and the "one time payment" model in the auto industry.
    Last edited by Mystictrust; 06-26-2013 at 12:30 AM. Reason: Clarification for watching movie at a theater
    HeyCori and DavidinCT like this.
    06-25-2013 11:45 PM
  18. TonyDedrick's Avatar
    I just find the used game excuse just that...an excuse. Publishers will try to convince you that we woke up this morning to a used game market and that it must be stopped. Used games have been a part of this industry from day one. Why wasn't it an issue 15, 20 or 30 years ago? Hard to feel bad when the fat cats are still raking in billions in profits every year.
    The Hustleman likes this.
    06-26-2013 12:08 AM
  19. Mystictrust's Avatar
    Used games have been a part of this industry from day one. Why wasn't it an issue 15, 20 or 30 years ago?
    I think because game development costs have skyrocketed, more than anything, as gamers demand more and more from their games. Film based movies that people would go to the theater for way back when had no DVDs, or even VHS, to be able to watch at home. One time cost. But film budgets were a lot smaller then than they are today. Same with game development.
    06-26-2013 12:28 AM
  20. EchoRedux's Avatar
    Buying a used car puts you at significant financial disadvantage. You have to make repairs and those repairs can run into the thousands. There is no way around that. In 20+ years I've never buffed any of my Sega CD games and they still work perfectly. And if I had to get one buffed I'm positive it wouldn't run into the thousands. The scale between cars and games does not work. The math does not compute. Buying a game used will not put you at a financial disadvantage like buying a used car will.

    The point I was making about the servers is that those servers cost money to run. That wasn't a big deal in 1984 but it is now. Devs are losing money because players that buy used can still play online without contributing to the costs of running those servers.

    Mind you, I'm not against the used market. But I do sympathize with devs that want players to buy new as much as possible. Not that the used market should be eliminated.
    I bought a used car and outside of a few oil changes and tire rotations, I've never once had it repaired for anything. The automaker didn't make a dime on me. The automaker doesn't get a cut from the mechanic nor from ExxonMobil for the Mobil 1 product being used.

    I honestly don't know anyone in the real world who a) owned a CD console and b) never experienced an unplayable disc. I'd say 20% of XBox games die out after 400 hours of use. I'd bet .01% of cars do that, which we would call lemons. Old roommate was on his third COD 4 CD and he takes extremely high care of his things.

    Bringing up math is irrelevant because the concepts are the same between cars, or books, or video games. The amounts in question do not need to be comparable, just the concept. Buy and sell a used book, be it at a garage sale or a second hand book store and neither the author nor publisher get money. Buy and sell a used car or game and it's the same thing. If one's a financial burden to the buyer, I don't see why that gives dev's the right to used game sales.
    06-26-2013 11:42 AM
  21. EchoRedux's Avatar
    What Cori is saying is that car manufacturers *do* have an avenue from which to collect on used cars, and that's in repairs and spare parts. No, not every customer goes to the dealer, but a lot of money still finds its way to the manufacturer. Buying a used car may set you back a fair amount of money if you're not careful, if the car hasn't been properly taken care of, or if you want body work or customizations.

    If a DVD hasn't been properly taken care of? You surface the disk for $2 at Hastings and move on with your life. And even if it's beat up it will usually play flawlessly. It takes decades for a CD or DVD to wear out just from basic use. A car needs constant care, and an old beat-up one will have a lot more trouble running than an old disk.
    Doesn't matter if there's additional revenue streams in used cars but not used games because that just means the gaming industry needs to innovate enough to capture more money from the aftermarket. In fact, via DLC, there are additional revenue streams. Gaming industry even gives special content on certain games that have codes to owners who buy the game new. They can make that available via DLC for gamers who buy it used. I don't know where you guys live, but if I get my car repaired, unless I'm ordering spare parts not covered by warranty, the car manufacturer isn't making money. What's the big deal if someone keeps their new car forever or someone keeps a new game forever? You guys make it seem like the devs pay extra to support the initial sale. If they pay server costs for an x amount of time, I doubt they will pay server costs for a longer period of time because people are buying the game used a year or two later. The server was already going to be paid for far beyond that time.
    06-26-2013 11:48 AM
  22. EchoRedux's Avatar
    To kind of inject my opinion into the center of EchoRedux & HeyCori's little back and forth spat here, I don't think a car is a good/fair analogy to compare against devs deserving residuals on used games - it's an entirely different business model. This is going to be a long post, so FYI.
    A ton of that cost, and high markup beyond the low manufacturing cost is made at purchase - a consumer is putting up a huge amount of cash for a vehicle all at once.
    And the maintenance, and the warranty. Auto manufacturers have costs after the new car is driven off the lot. They still have costs even when the car is resold and thus "used". Ever heard of those 10 year warranties? Yes, they apply to all owners of the vehicle up to 10 years. There are clear costs to those warranties until they are up. I see nothing but parallels to the gaming industry with online play. The dev's are supporting the servers for new discs, and the people who still own those discs for a certain amount of time.

    The physical cost of the disc that a game is on, in volume, is probably pennies - though I suppose you could argue that compared to low costs of auto manufacturing it's similar. A video game development studio incurs costs from licensing game engines, investing in new technologies, game development over a period of years (per game title, for many games), etc. Well technically, to be fair, a publisher will generally take care of licensing costs and such, but it's still part of the overall cost of a game. The publisher that finances the developers has a variety of costs and things to watch out for. As an example, if the developers assure the publisher that a game will be ready by X date, and the publishers market the crap out of it (as they need to, for future sales), the developers might run into a bunch of bugs or development issues that delay the game, resulting in a bunch of pissed off people who generally kind of "move on". Excitement dissipates, sales aren't as spectacular as they could have been, etc etc.
    Yet, there's research and development costs on cars too. Patents, intellectual property, design, all of those represent a tangible cost, yet are intangible materials in the actual manufacturing of the car. We don't see that millions poured in on the research of a small air conditioning unit that produces massive cooling through 12 vents in the car, we just see the hundreds that it actually cost to physically produce when it's installed. Hey, there are other costs such as advertising, distribution (you know what it costs to ship a car cross country?), selling fees, not to mention the dealerships need to make their money too. Oh, and dealerships are rarely owned by the manufacturers, almost all are independently owned, obtaining a franchising license to sell a certain make. Car production can be delayed too. Heck, the 2013 Lincoln MKZ was pushed back 3 months from the expected launch date. You think the dealerships didn't hurt by only having 3 Lincoln models?

    There is no "extended warranty" on a game, no money to be made on financing. I suppose you could equate bonus features on a car to DLC, but I would argue that DLC costs more to produce and market than a Bluetooth/technology package on a car. And takes away time from working on the next title to keep the development company afloat.
    An extended warranty represents a cost for the manufacturer. Paying for servers is the same thing, a cost for the dev's. Car manufacturers don't make any money on financing unless they do the financing themselves. There's money to be made on financing a game purchase, it's called using a credit card. Hey, the gaming industry can finance your purchase of video games by offering an EA branded credit card! Just a way for the industry to innovate by offering credit. Give people a 5% discount on the purchase of games and charge 25% APR on the balance!

    When you say a Bluetooth/technology package, do you mean having an aftermarket installation? This would have been covered in a new car and someone buying it used would still have the benefit. If the person buying the used car had one installed, I doubt the car manufacturer would make a sale since I don't typically see the car manufacturers making those products.

    So... $60 (or maybe around $50 wholesale) for millions in development cost, and that $60 has to cover everything. Well, multiplied by a TON of gamers.
    And? Car companies have a wholesale price, and a retail, and the covers everything too.

    There are also around 24 auto manufacturers in the entire US right now (according to Wikipedia). There are 79 game developers in my city alone (Austin, TX - according to gamedevmap.com. Unsure of accuracy). Not all devs spend double digit millions on games, but every single one of them is subject to the intricacies of putting their games on the market. They all have short windows to capture gamer's short and fickle attention spans. They all need to get their game in as many stores as possible, and find a way to make it interesting enough so that Gamestop Employee #5254 doesn't steer an interested gamer over to the new Call of Duty instead. Profit margins are spread thinly throughout all of these development studios, hundreds of them. Not a fair comparison, you might say? Then check out the list of game publishers in the US, and forget about individual developers. There are a lot according to Wikipedia, though I'm not going to bother counting how many. It's more than 24. Okay, scratch that, I don't want to look like a fool here, there are about 83 actively independent US game publishing companies, and that is not counting those that are a subsidiary of a larger publishing company. All of those are developing using in-house studios, or financing the development of games with game development companies.
    Both cars companies and developers face fiercely competitive markets. There's obviously a lower barrier to enter the gaming market. But if devs aren't making money, that means they over saturated their industry and the laws of economics would say that they should go out of business.

    Walk into a Honda dealership for a new car, and only Honda makes the profit on your new car. Walk into a Gamestop, and there are hundreds of other game development studios vying for your attention... and it's kind of hard to get a free test drive out of a game, so some people only go with a Gamestop employee recommendation or pretty box art and sometimes a solid marketing pitch on the back of the game box.
    Uhm, the dealership gets a cut, the salesman gets a cut, their repair shop can expect future business, so no, many people are profiting on a new car. On a used car, just like a used game, if you're paying someone for maintanence, that's their business, and the manufacturer doesn't get their cut. Spending "$2 at Hastings" just like with a car, you are paying money for repairs, and that money doesn't go to the manufacturers.

    To summarize my comparison, an auto manufacturer is not subject to the same types of struggles that the game industry is when it comes to selling their product.
    Uhm, they are.

    However, games do not get residuals and do not have any secondary source of revenue.
    This point kind of makes your comparisons between video games and movies weaker than the comparisons between cars and video games.

    The publishers and developers quite literally only get income once. They basically are forced to sell in supremely large quantities to make up for everything in guaranteed sales, and hope that DLC can help keep continued sales up (word of mouth, more PR about an extension to a popular game, etc).
    Actually, like movies, video games can make money when they're reintroduced to new mediums. Like how movies get money when a cable network buys the rights to play it, or money from DVD sales, an Xbox game can be reported into an Xbox 360 and an Xbox One game. I'd pay again to get Morrowind on an Xbone.

    I think game developers have it rough. Heh, and despite the high rate of employment rotation and pressure, I still somehow want to break in to the games industry for a career.
    Hence the over saturation. I'd say follow your passion but you're looking at likely being unemployed with it.
    06-26-2013 12:27 PM
  23. vertigoOne's Avatar
    Developers/publishers need to put their weight behind changing the system if it is not working for them, rather than being idle about it and expecting the system to change itself in their favor.

    And I do not care what Gamestop is reporting for profits/losses, when the fact is that they are raking in major profit on each used game they sell. They are probably overpaying their executives and that is why they are operating at a loss. I do not have any sympathy for Gamestop as similarly l do not have any sympathy for used car dealers.
    06-26-2013 12:57 PM
  24. HeyCori's Avatar
    I bought a used car and outside of a few oil changes and tire rotations, I've never once had it repaired for anything. The automaker didn't make a dime on me. The automaker doesn't get a cut from the mechanic nor from ExxonMobil for the Mobil 1 product being used.

    I honestly don't know anyone in the real world who a) owned a CD console and b) never experienced an unplayable disc. I'd say 20% of XBox games die out after 400 hours of use. I'd bet .01% of cars do that, which we would call lemons. Old roommate was on his third COD 4 CD and he takes extremely high care of his things.

    Bringing up math is irrelevant because the concepts are the same between cars, or books, or video games. The amounts in question do not need to be comparable, just the concept. Buy and sell a used book, be it at a garage sale or a second hand book store and neither the author nor publisher get money. Buy and sell a used car or game and it's the same thing. If one's a financial burden to the buyer, I don't see why that gives dev's the right to used game sales.
    Sorry, but if you think the costs associated with a used car is even remotely like the costs associated with a used disc then we will have to agree to disagree. Especially when you start making up numbers like 400 hours and .01%. 400 hours is barely 17 days. I've put months into Capcom vs SNK 2 on the Dreamcast without having to spend a dime on repairs. I've been playing Sonic CD on and off again since the 90s (because it's that awesome). Same disc. No extra costs. The math is important because we are talking about math. Money. NUMBERS. If you don't think that's important then no, we will have to agree to disagree.
    06-26-2013 01:59 PM
  25. MobileVortex's Avatar
    If dev's / publishers have a problem with used sales, they have an outlet to fix this. Digital distribution. Have regular sales, or drop the price to that of the used market, kill gamestop or used game stores margins and you will see them disappear fast. Kill their margins they will start giving less and less for trade ins. Another way is a free to play model, allow users to download the game or a limited part of the game for free, and micro transaction the hell out of everyone. Sell single player and multiplayer versions of games, this could benifit a lot of people who could care less about single player or multiplayer. This is their problem to fix, not Microsoft or Sonys.
    EchoRedux likes this.
    06-26-2013 02:24 PM
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