1. mcb155's Avatar
    I'm new around here but I don't believe I have seen this topic. I understand a physical disc and the need for control from a developer's perspective. But if I can buy the game digitally and download it directly to my Xbox One, what need is there for DRM other than updates and those don't need to be every 24 hours? Am I missing something important here or is the anger over DRM only around physical discs? I would think if MS ever goes fully digital the DRM timeframe would be relaxed, right?
    06-18-2013 12:07 PM
  2. ncxcstud's Avatar
    Because these games aren't locked to your specific XBOX One, and that the disc becomes 'meaningless' after install since you don't need it. MS needs a system in place to make sure that only YOU are using the license for that particular game.

    Without it - since because discs will no longer be required - only one disc would need to be purchased and then that disc could be passed around a dorm - or a school - or an office.

    The DRM is in place because they are allowing you to trade-in and share your game. It isn't just locked to you...
    06-18-2013 12:12 PM
  3. Robert Carpenter's Avatar
    Because a downloaded game is no different than a physical game. You are paying for the same rights/licenses, you just receive the game in a different format.

    Therefore, speaking from a legal point of view, Microsoft should be obligated to treat physical version and digital version the same. While nothing has been said, it can be assumed that digital games can be sold and purchased used just like the physical ones.

    The Xbox One could possibly have a section of the online marketplace where you can sell your digital game back to them for a certain amount of digital currency. They can also have a section where you browse digital used games too.

    This is all speculation, but so far all the evidence favors this.
    06-18-2013 12:16 PM
  4. Robert Carpenter's Avatar
    Because these games aren't locked to your specific XBOX One, and that the disc becomes 'meaningless' after install since you don't need it. MS needs a system in place to make sure that only YOU are using the license for that particular game.

    Without it - since because discs will no longer be required - only one disc would need to be purchased and then that disc could be passed around a dorm - or a school - or an office.

    The DRM is in place because they are allowing you to trade-in and share your game. It isn't just locked to you...
    You misunderstood his question lol. He was only talking about game that were purchased digitally. No disc was ever seen or touched.
    06-18-2013 12:17 PM
  5. jasqid's Avatar
    I can so see this just turning into game rentals. One price of a gold sub as it is now, and maybe Xbox live platinum where you van have 3 or 4 games downloaded and "leased/rented" to play. Sort of like the game fly or Netflix but in digital downloads.
    06-18-2013 12:21 PM
  6. mcb155's Avatar
    Don't get me wrong. I understand what you both are saying. I'm trying to point out that because the physical disc could be passed around there is a need for DRM on the disc but with a digital copy of the game DRM wouldn't matter as much because you couldn't pass it around.

    While you have the ability to let 10 "family members" play the game, it was unclear to me if these people would only be able to do so on the same Xbox One or anywhere.

    I know there is also a one time lending of the game option and I believe people are merging the family play and lending options together to assume your family can play on any console.

    Coming back to the beginning, I think DRM (from a developer's standpoint) is only needed when talking about a physical disc. The digital copy can be restricted and tracked more easily without 24 hour DRM checks.
    06-18-2013 12:27 PM
  7. martinmc78's Avatar
    As an example - lets say I go over to my friends house for the weekend whos not on my family group - I sign in to his xbox and all my games are available for both of you to play. I'm there from Friday night, for the whole day Saturday and most of the Sunday - when I go home I don't log in to my xbox which would then retrieve all my games from my friends xbox. Now without the 24hour DRM it would be possible to remain signed in on my friends xbox which would give him access to my entire game collection until he were to sign me out, which if the xbox is always on could be until I log back in possibly 5 to 6 days later as I only play games at weekends. In that time its more than feasible for my friend to have played and completed every game I own for free.
    06-18-2013 12:38 PM
  8. mcb155's Avatar
    As an example - lets say I go over to my friends house for the weekend whos not on my family group - I sign in to his xbox and all my games are available for both of you to play. I'm there from Friday night, for the whole day Saturday and most of the Sunday - when I go home I don't log in to my xbox which would then retrieve all my games from my friends xbox. Now without the 24hour DRM it would be possible to remain signed in on my friends xbox which would give him access to my entire game collection until he were to sign me out, which if the xbox is always on could be until I log back in possibly 5 to 6 days later as I only play games at weekends. In that time its more than feasible for my friend to have played and completed every game I own for free.
    I understand your point but your friend is playing on your account and even with the DRM you haven't signed into your account at home so it would still work. The onus here is on you for not logging out at the friend's house and or logging in at home. DRM wouldn't have saved anyone in this example.

    I thought DRM was just to ensure other accounts couldn't use a copy of a game at the same time you were using it. Giving out your ID or just staying logged into anoth Xbox One is an entirely different problem.
    06-18-2013 12:59 PM
  9. martinmc78's Avatar
    I understand your point but your friend is playing on your account and even with the DRM you haven't signed into your account at home so it would still work. The onus here is on you for not logging out at the friend's house and or logging in at home. DRM wouldn't have saved anyone in this example.

    I thought DRM was just to ensure other accounts couldn't use a copy of a game at the same time you were using it. Giving out your ID or just staying logged into anoth Xbox One is an entirely different problem.
    But with the way the DRM is if I don't check in at either my friends or mine during the 24 hour check in it will stop access at my friends house even if I don't log back in at mine - the Kinect will know im not at his house either through voice or visual.
    06-18-2013 01:12 PM
  10. mcb155's Avatar
    But with the way the DRM is if I don't check in at either my friends or mine during the 24 hour check in it will stop access at my friends house even if I don't log back in at mine - the Kinect will know im not at his house either through voice or visual.
    I was missing the part about voice or visual DRM. I assumed as long as you were signed in it would be enough. Do you have a link for the voice/visual DRM component? I'd be interested to see how that would work.

    But back to the main topic. You would have to be comfortable giving your ID out to someone for this method to work. Giving a disc is one thing, giving out you personal info is another. I like my friends but I don't give them unfettered access to my accounts.

    So a digital copy would still give MS greater control than a disc unless people were willing to give out access to their ID and then not log in themselves for an extended period.
    06-18-2013 01:27 PM
  11. Reflexx's Avatar
    The DRM is there because you will have the ability to sell your digital game.

    The rights of the game can be transferred from one person to another.

    The 24 hour check-in is required because they have to make sure that the game isn't "owned" by two people at the same time.
    06-18-2013 02:04 PM
  12. mcb155's Avatar
    The DRM is there because you will have the ability to sell your digital game.

    The rights of the game can be transferred from one person to another.

    The 24 hour check-in is required because they have to make sure that the game isn't "owned" by two people at the same time.
    But if you sell your digital game, the process should remove your rights to it. I mean you would have to be connected in order to sell the rights to the marketplace or another user.

    Doesn't that still preclude the need for DRM in this case as the digital transaction will monitor and record access privleges.

    I'm still not sold that 24 DRM checks are necessary if you buy strictly digital content.

    I feel that the angst of the community is solely around physical disk transfers between users when we are discussing DRM.
    06-18-2013 02:46 PM
  13. ncxcstud's Avatar
    I think what's confusing people is that whether you buy the physical disc or download the digital copy - it is the same thing. The physical disc is just the digital download in a pretty box. You get the same thing either way. In the eyes of the system itself it can't 'see' the difference between the two. Hence the need for the DRM check...
    06-18-2013 03:28 PM
  14. mcb155's Avatar
    I think what's confusing people is that whether you buy the physical disc or download the digital copy - it is the same thing. The physical disc is just the digital download in a pretty box. You get the same thing either way. In the eyes of the system itself it can't 'see' the difference between the two. Hence the need for the DRM check...
    That makes sense. I guess the system will be a pain for people until/unless everything is digital. I would imagine if they ever go all digital you could see much easier and better ways to share/rent/sell games on a digital marketplace because everything could be tracked online.
    06-18-2013 03:43 PM
  15. vertigoOne's Avatar
    Here is a nice article from yesterday, collects a lot of relevant information together:

    The Xbox One Believers
    06-18-2013 03:49 PM
  16. Reflexx's Avatar
    But if you sell your digital game, the process should remove your rights to it. I mean you would have to be connected in order to sell the rights to the marketplace or another user.
    An authorized retailer would be connected, and would be able to remove the game from your account if you sell it to them.

    Doesn't that still preclude the need for DRM in this case as the digital transaction will monitor and record access privleges
    No. That's exactly why you need DRM.

    How will it monitor your access privileges without checking?

    I'm still not sold that 24 DRM checks are necessary if you buy strictly digital content.
    The time between checks is basically a time where people could cheat the system.

    If I unplugged my internet connection and then sold my game, I could still play that game until the next time it checked in.

    If that time is extended, it's basically extending the amount of time where the system can be cheated.

    I feel that the angst of the community is solely around physical disk transfers between users when we are discussing DRM.
    I feel that the angst of the community is more about a mob mentality than anything else. People are so bent out of shape.

    They have a choice. They should use their choice.

    If Ford makes a car that I like, but Chevy doesn't; I'm not going to get angry at Chevy. I'll just buy the Ford.
    06-18-2013 03:51 PM
  17. mcb155's Avatar
    An authorized retailer would be connected, and would be able to remove the game from your account if you sell it to them.



    No. That's exactly why you need DRM.

    How will it monitor your access privileges without checking?



    The time between checks is basically a time where people could cheat the system.

    If I unplugged my internet connection and then sold my game, I could still play that game until the next time it checked in.

    If that time is extended, it's basically extending the amount of time where the system can be cheated.



    I feel that the angst of the community is more about a mob mentality than anything else. People are so bent out of shape.

    They have a choice. They should use their choice.

    If Ford makes a car that I like, but Chevy doesn't; I'm not going to get angry at Chevy. I'll just buy the Ford.
    Some of your points seem valid, but if you sold your digital only (no disc) game how could you then turn off your connection and continue to play. You would need to be connected to sell it, right?

    And that is my point. If everything is digital, once you buy it you own it and once you sell/lend it you don't. Then you wouldn't need the DRM check in period. When you went into the marketplace to make a transaction the system makes note of the changes and alters ownership. That way you could play offline without the publisher fearing lost income via illegal sharing.

    That is why Steam/smart phone arguments don't stack up. All transactions are digital so you can't share but you can play offline.
    06-18-2013 04:23 PM
  18. Robert Carpenter's Avatar
    Some of your points seem valid, but if you sold your digital only (no disc) game how could you then turn off your connection and continue to play. You would need to be connected to sell it, right?

    And that is my point. If everything is digital, once you buy it you own it and once you sell/lend it you don't. Then you wouldn't need the DRM check in period. When you went into the marketplace to make a transaction the system makes note of the changes and alters ownership. That way you could play offline without the publisher fearing lost income via illegal sharing.

    That is why Steam/smart phone arguments don't stack up. All transactions are digital so you can't share but you can play offline.
    I think you will see the flaw when you think about your situation with two consoles.

    You can disconnect your console from the internet and play the game offline. Then you could sign in on a different console and sell the game.

    The console that is disconnected could play the game forever as long as it was never connected to the internet again. DRM prevents this from happening.
    06-18-2013 04:53 PM

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