06-23-2013 03:24 PM
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  1. Musicman247's Avatar
    No offense, but maybe they shouldn't be making such big budgeted games in the first place if their sales forecast is that high?
    Right, because everyone is just waiting for the next low-res silent, text-based next-gen game....
    HeyCori likes this.
    06-20-2013 11:41 AM
  2. HeyCori's Avatar
    Microsoft's cloud computing 'vision' for Xbox One remains unchanged | Joystiq

    Though Microsoft has changed its stance on the digital rights management-based requirements for the Xbox One, the company remains committed to cloud computing.

    "Our vision around Xbox One and what you can do because of the power of both the architecture of the console, and also the cloud and the Xbox Live service, remains unchanged," Xbox Chief Product Officer Marc Whitten told Joystiq.

    When asked why Microsoft would not simply offer an offline mode akin to the one featured on Steam, Whitten said "that's absolutely" what Microsoft is doing.

    Whitten listed a host of examples of how cloud computing still exists as part of the Xbox One plan, noting players will "see great games like Titanfall take advantage of the cloud processing power" as well as have the ability to get games from the online marketplace and use them on any console.

    "We're going to continue to really invest in how those experiences work," Whitten added.

    During E3 2013, Fairfax "Mackey" McCandlish, lead designer on the always-online Titanfall, told Joystiq that cloud computing on the Xbox One allows Respawn to "spin off dedicated servers" whenever it wants. "Instead of having everything prepared ahead of time, or misallocate different areas, or have some places be too slow or too much, we can just say 'cloud, find us the right number of computers,'" he added.
    06-20-2013 11:48 AM
  3. theeboredone's Avatar
    Right, because everyone is just waiting for the next low-res silent, text-based next-gen game....
    That's not my point. You think Indie studios are spending Triple A budgets on making their games? It's not always about explosions and getting graphics down to the grain. One only has to look at games like Walking Dead or Journey to see how successful studios can be. Both games were candidates for GOTY, and Journey actually broke the PSN sales record as well.

    And I like how you ignored the rest of my post. Let's have you read this again. Instead of 20, let's say each new game profits 10 dollars. 3.6 million sold x 10 = 36 million revenue. If Uncharted 2 took 20 million to make, we can assume Hitman had a similar budget. Let's say 10 million is put into marketing/publisher you are left with 6 million to split between developers, which is more than enough.

    Square Enix had stupid sales goals for Tomb Raider as well, even though IMO it sold really well. EA thought Dead Space 3 would sell 5 million. Resident Evil 6 sold 5 million instead of 7 million. Maybe these companies need to reconsider what is to be expected. Not every game is Halo, Call of Duty, or Madden.

    Dark Souls was a very big and possibly "expensive" game to make. Yet it only sold 2.5 million. No one is deeming that a failure? In fact, they are already making a sequel for it. There you go.
    06-20-2013 11:59 AM
  4. Robert Carpenter's Avatar
    That's not my point. You think Indie studios are spending Triple A budgets on making their games? It's not always about explosions and getting graphics down to the grain. One only has to look at games like Walking Dead or Journey to see how successful studios can be. Both games were candidates for GOTY, and Journey actually broke the PSN sales record as well.

    And I like how you ignored the rest of my post. Let's have you read this again. Instead of 20, let's say each new game profits 10 dollars. 3.6 million sold x 10 = 36 million revenue. If Uncharted 2 took 20 million to make, we can assume Hitman had a similar budget. Let's say 10 million is put into marketing/publisher you are left with 6 million to split between developers, which is more than enough.

    Square Enix had stupid sales goals for Tomb Raider as well, even though IMO it sold really well. EA thought Dead Space 3 would sell 5 million. Resident Evil 6 sold 5 million instead of 7 million. Maybe these companies need to reconsider what is to be expected. Not every game is Halo, Call of Duty, or Madden.

    Dark Souls was a very big and possibly "expensive" game to make. Yet it only sold 2.5 million. No one is deeming that a failure? In fact, they are already making a sequel for it. There you go.
    6 million to split between developers?

    You do realize that most of these high-end AAA games have up to 500-1,000 developers right? These games also take 1-2 years to make. Most of these developers are getting paid around 100,000 a year. That means it can cost up to $100,000,000 for a AAA title just for development costs alone....
    DavidinCT likes this.
    06-20-2013 12:07 PM
  5. Pepe D Vegas's Avatar
    If it cost 100 million per game im sure we would have 3 games for the life cycle of a console.
    06-20-2013 12:11 PM
  6. Coreldan's Avatar
    6 million to split between developers?

    You do realize that most of these high-end AAA games have up to 500-1,000 developers right? These games also take 1-2 years to make. Most of these developers are getting paid around 100,000 a year. That means it can cost up to $100,000,000 for a AAA title just for development costs alone....
    I would say you exaggerate the amount of the devs on a triple-A game. I know that APB had a budget of 100 million, which is like top 5 in the history of gaming and they had about 200 people working on the game. While one can say that the game failed miserably, that was definitely not cos of not enough staff (but bad management for one). In fact, the studio was considered pretty big as far as I can tell for just one game.
    06-20-2013 12:11 PM
  7. Robert Carpenter's Avatar
    I would say you exaggerate the amount of the devs on a triple-A game. I know that APB had a budget of 100 million, which is like top 5 in the history of gaming and they had about 200 people working on the game. While one can say that the game failed miserably, that was definitely not cos of not enough staff (but bad management for one). In fact, the studio was considered pretty big as far as I can tell for just one game.
    Like I said, in most cases. Call of Duty definitely has numbers towards 1,000.

    Also, that statistic for the number of developers was straight from the mouth of Cliffy B. While I have never worked on a AAA title myself, I think Cliffy B has enough credibility to make his statement true. ;)
    06-20-2013 12:15 PM
  8. Coreldan's Avatar
    But I do feel that it's not exactly a fair comparison to compare CoD to "other triple-A games". At least to say CoD would be anywhere near "most cases". It's like comparing WoW to other MMORPGs in a way. These are exceptions, not the rules. There's only really a handful of those titles that can boast anywhere near the kind of numbers that fe. CoD does, but it doesnt mean that IPs out of that handful bunch wouldn't be triple-A games (it's a terrible term anyways).

    I'd still think that the average triple-A game still has a staff much closer to 200 than 1000. But like you, I havnt worked on such titles and it's mostly just assumptions.
    06-20-2013 12:19 PM
  9. Musicman247's Avatar
    If it cost 100 million per game im sure we would have 3 games for the life cycle of a console.
    That sounds about right, actually. Bethesda made Oblivion, Fallout 3 and Skyrim for the 360.
    Pepe D Vegas and Gungzwei like this.
    06-20-2013 12:23 PM
  10. theeboredone's Avatar
    6 million to split between developers?

    You do realize that most of these high-end AAA games have up to 500-1,000 developers right? These games also take 1-2 years to make. Most of these developers are getting paid around 100,000 a year. That means it can cost up to $100,000,000 for a AAA title just for development costs alone....
    Uncharted 2 had 85 people working, while also using independent contractors for who knows what. Same time, Ubisoft had 500 people work on AC2. So it does depend on the business model and you're approach so to speak. Also, mind you, I did use some extreme conservative numbers. We all know GameStop doesn't make much of anything off of new games, and their main revenue comes from used games. Best Buy's cost per game is 50 dollars, and then make a profit by selling it for 60 dollars. So once again, assuming a game company makes 10 dollars per game sold is some really conservative numbers.

    It all comes down to your business model, and like I said...some of these companies expect stupidly high expectations. Sometimes because they put a lot of money in development, marketing, or something else entirely. You don't need a AAA game to sell millions. There are plenty of indie or "B" games that can attest to that.
    06-20-2013 12:34 PM
  11. HeyCori's Avatar
    6 million to split between developers?

    You do realize that most of these high-end AAA games have up to 500-1,000 developers right? These games also take 1-2 years to make. Most of these developers are getting paid around 100,000 a year. That means it can cost up to $100,000,000 for a AAA title just for development costs alone....
    While I think it's rare to get to 100 million from just salaries alone, there's other factors like licensing the game engine, marketing, the graphics arts department, distribution deals, hardware/office stationary (yes, even paper costs), and lets not forget paying off the publishers. In order for Bungie to make games like Destiny it has to sell like Call of Duty. 3-4 million copies doesn't cut it when budgets are that high.
    06-20-2013 01:00 PM
  12. Robert Carpenter's Avatar
    While I think it's rare to get to 100 million from just salaries alone, there's other factors like licensing the game engine, marketing, the graphics arts department, distribution deals, hardware/office stationary (yes, even paper costs), and lets not forget paying off the publishers. In order for Bungie to make games like Destiny it has to sell like Call of Duty. 3-4 million copies doesn't cut it when budgets are that high.
    Exactly. Which is why everything is multi-platform unless Microsoft or Sony pays them or funds them for it. A platform exclusive AAA title is hard to pull off without those funds. Add to that fact that a lot of gamers are scared of trying out new IP, it really hurts the industry because of how low the success rate can be.
    HeyCori likes this.
    06-20-2013 01:04 PM
  13. ncxcstud's Avatar
    Uncharted 2 had 85 people working, while also using independent contractors for who knows what. Same time, Ubisoft had 500 people work on AC2. So it does depend on the business model and you're approach so to speak. Also, mind you, I did use some extreme conservative numbers. We all know GameStop doesn't make much of anything off of new games, and their main revenue comes from used games. Best Buy's cost per game is 50 dollars, and then make a profit by selling it for 60 dollars. So once again, assuming a game company makes 10 dollars per game sold is some really conservative numbers.

    It all comes down to your business model, and like I said...some of these companies expect stupidly high expectations. Sometimes because they put a lot of money in development, marketing, or something else entirely. You don't need a AAA game to sell millions. There are plenty of indie or "B" games that can attest to that.
    Which is why I see a lot of games adding in more DLC, multiplayer, or going strictly free 2 play this generation.

    Take Tomb Raider for example - Its awesome. Seriously, if you haven't played it you should. It was amazing. And it sold pretty well (IMO). I think around 6 million copies. That's a lot (an estimated) and Square STILL thought that it didn't hit their intended projections to cover everything.

    Now, even though there was multiplayer in it (it wasn't very good) so a lot of people sold the game back to gamestop and picked up another game (maybe Bioshock Infinite). So, Gamestop is right that by selling back Tomb Raider it 'helped the industry' by giving a consumer enough scratch to get B:I - but each subsequent sale of your old copy of Tomb Raider doesn't help Square at all - thus their saying that the game didn't 'sell to their expectations.'

    Now, I hope we get more games of Tomb Raiders caliber. It looks great, it plays great, and it tells a wonderful story. It's obviously what the 'people' want too since it sold a lot of copies (not a crazy 20 million that CoD does, but 6 million isn't something to sneeze at).

    But, we're in an industry that thinks 6 million new copies of a game isn't considered 'good.' I'd love to know how many additional sales it received through pre-own sales...

    Cliff Blezinski already stated that the unique individuals playing games far exceed total sales. I'd love to know what the ratio is...

    Video games don't have the luxury of reaping licensing deals like movies, tv, and the songs do. And it is hurting them...
    06-20-2013 01:24 PM
  14. MikeyMike01's Avatar
    I agree, but I still buy this. Hopefully you can buy all games digitally on launch day (with good download speed) and that way have the online game library still. Also that you could play your games at any xbox with your login.
    I'm still buying it too. Sony and Nintendo's offerings are pitiful.


    Sent from my iPhone
    06-20-2013 02:23 PM
  15. NaNoo123's Avatar
    That's not really a problem, cos it's easy to implement an option for "DRM free" or "online use"-kind of options. If you buy the the game digitally, you will be connected to the internet. There is no scenario where you could buy and install a digital game without being online, so before/during/upon downloading a digital game you could be allowed to choose whether you want to be able to share etc or be able to play the game offline. If you choose offline, you can do just that, if you choose to share, you can't play offline.

    Although, I'm not sure if there is any risk whatsoever to allowing playing digital games offline baseline, cos there is no disc to give around to all of yours friends that could be exploited in the first place.. but the thing still is that the split between digital and disc based games is not a problem cos there is no scenario of installing a digital game without internet.
    you really think they could do that prior to launch?
    Your underestimating how much work, qa, testing is involved in all that.
    As i said hopefully in the near future after the release they can implement some form of hybrid to please most people on both sides.
    06-20-2013 03:19 PM
  16. Keith Wallace's Avatar
    I sincerely hope they don't give in to the fanboys on this aspect. Kinect has to be packed in, end of story.
    I'd be fine with the Kinect inclusion if it wasn't required to POST. That's the part that gets to me, just because of the POTENTIAL it has to be an inconvenience.
    06-20-2013 04:00 PM
  17. smoledman's Avatar
    Right, because everyone is just waiting for the next low-res silent, text-based next-gen game....
    Minecraft FTW!!!! No really I don't get the hysteria over this game which looks worse than some 1980s games I played.
    06-20-2013 10:26 PM
  18. Mystictrust's Avatar
    Minecraft FTW!!!! No really I don't get the hysteria over this game which looks worse than some 1980s games I played.
    Graphics hardly mean anything in a video game if it is fun. I played some old school Total Annihilation and System Shock 2 the other day. Thinking of busting out Thief: The Dark Project... Fun times :)

    I still prefer 8 and 16 bit Mario over all the 3D stuff
    06-20-2013 10:54 PM
  19. Polychrome's Avatar
    Exactly. Which is why everything is multi-platform unless Microsoft or Sony pays them or funds them for it. A platform exclusive AAA title is hard to pull off without those funds. Add to that fact that a lot of gamers are scared of trying out new IP, it really hurts the industry because of how low the success rate can be.
    What's interesting though is this cloud setup, if it is nearly as appealing to devs as I've heard it is, stands to break that cycle. And possibly bring a lot of these console-multiplatform games to the PC world where it would be easy for Microsoft to allow them to naturally migrate.

    Would Sony be willing to devote an entire CDN to offloading processes from the ps4? I'm not sure at this point, but I do know Sony has a distinctive case of MeTooism. Sony's answer to everything so far has been to copy everyone else, then see how much hardware they can cram into a box and declare themselves the winner. They've done this to everyone from Nintendo to LG. They've never struck me as particularly innovative in their own right.
    06-20-2013 10:58 PM
  20. Keith Wallace's Avatar
    Graphics hardly mean anything in a video game if it is fun. I played some old school Total Annihilation and System Shock 2 the other day. Thinking of busting out Thief: The Dark Project... Fun times :)

    I still prefer 8 and 16 bit Mario over all the 3D stuff

    World of Warcraft
    : Single largest game ever, and it's got rather run-of-the-mill graphics, in terms of quality. Mario games have never been graphically impressive, **** they sell like crazy. When the artwork allows graphics to take a backseat, in favor of a good game with more kid-friendly, colorful visuals, the GPU strain isn't as big of a deal.
    06-20-2013 11:10 PM
  21. theeboredone's Avatar
    Which is why I see a lot of games adding in more DLC, multiplayer, or going strictly free 2 play this generation.

    Take Tomb Raider for example - Its awesome. Seriously, if you haven't played it you should. It was amazing. And it sold pretty well (IMO). I think around 6 million copies. That's a lot (an estimated) and Square STILL thought that it didn't hit their intended projections to cover everything.

    Now, even though there was multiplayer in it (it wasn't very good) so a lot of people sold the game back to gamestop and picked up another game (maybe Bioshock Infinite). So, Gamestop is right that by selling back Tomb Raider it 'helped the industry' by giving a consumer enough scratch to get B:I - but each subsequent sale of your old copy of Tomb Raider doesn't help Square at all - thus their saying that the game didn't 'sell to their expectations.'

    Now, I hope we get more games of Tomb Raiders caliber. It looks great, it plays great, and it tells a wonderful story. It's obviously what the 'people' want too since it sold a lot of copies (not a crazy 20 million that CoD does, but 6 million isn't something to sneeze at).

    But, we're in an industry that thinks 6 million new copies of a game isn't considered 'good.' I'd love to know how many additional sales it received through pre-own sales...

    Cliff Blezinski already stated that the unique individuals playing games far exceed total sales. I'd love to know what the ratio is...

    Video games don't have the luxury of reaping licensing deals like movies, tv, and the songs do. And it is hurting them...
    I will admit. I was a victim of GameFlying Tomb Raider (solid game). Why? Because out of all the AAA games, that is the one I chose I would rent rather than spending money on. Hence why, sometimes you gotta take a back seat and rethink your business model.
    06-21-2013 12:12 AM
  22. Keith Wallace's Avatar
    Something I've been thinking: Why is it that WE need punished because game companies cannot keep their spending in check? I mean, if they're the ones who cannot work within a reasonable budget, that is on them.
    06-21-2013 10:14 AM
  23. smoledman's Avatar
    I hope Microsoft brings back self-publishing for indies and the XNA framework.
    06-21-2013 11:36 AM
  24. MerlotC's Avatar
    Was just reading this Heartbroken MS employee - Pastebin.com Looks like the family share wasn't going to be as awesome as I originally thought, though still pretty cool. I'm kinda thinking that this is going to end up being a better approach. Slowly show gamers, and the journalists why these changes are good... We will get there
    Looks like the pastebin post was a fake and Family Share was going to be (and may still in the future be) awesome.
    https://twitter.com/aarongreenberg/s...25219019436033
    Last edited by MerlotC; 06-21-2013 at 03:18 PM. Reason: forgot link
    06-21-2013 03:17 PM
  25. Keith Wallace's Avatar
    It was as they described? They barely described anything for-sure. It was mostly speculation, which is how we got to this point in the first place.
    06-21-2013 03:47 PM
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