12-06-2013 04:33 PM
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  1. mase123987's Avatar
    I think what he is getting at is that a PC is not going to get better without additional hardware investments. The PC already starts several hundred dollars above the console in price, and for it to get better, that gap in cost is only going to grow. A GPU upgrade will usually run you $200 or more, while the CPU upgrade will be probably $250 or more (depending on your start and end point), and it can be even MORE if you're moving to a CPU with a new socket, which requires $100 for a motherboard.

    His point is simply that a PC will not be upgraded on its own, I guess.
    New drivers can and do improve performance. So can OS updates. Both cost no or small amounts of money.
    Robert Carpenter likes this.
    10-29-2013 04:49 PM
  2. Robert Carpenter's Avatar
    Explain how a PC can't get better please.

    Also, I agree consoles are the best bang for your buck, but that isn't what you have been arguing.

    Consoles will never be as good as PCs when talking about graphics and performances. They won't be because of the different business models, and there is nothing wrong with that.
    It's hard to explain, but first you have to understand more about the vast differences in software and hardware architectures. The way consoles are designed differs a lot from the way a PC is designed.

    For instance, a PC has an entire layer of software just for drivers. Without a driver layer, you can greatly increase the throughput of an operating system. A console does not have modular and interchanging hardware, so the computations going to and from the graphics card do not have to pass through a software layer such as drivers.

    It's the way the software and hardware comes together as a whole. Individually consoles and PC's have a lot of similarities, but as a whole, the two systems are miles apart. A good example is the kind of graphics power that can be achieved from an Xbox 360. Take an equivalent graphics card in a PC and you will never achieve comparable results.



    As far as PC's not able to get better, you're absolutely right. They most certainly can. The problem is they rarely do. Because of how fast the hardware advances in the PC world, developers don't really need to optimize their code to expand the capabilities of older systems. They can simply assume that if you want better performance and results, you are going to upgrade to better hardware that is more capable of processing their code.

    On the other hand, console developers know the hardware will never change. The only way a console will improve is with optimizations in the software. So while a PC developer can do the same, they simply aren't focused on the same areas as a console developer.

    It's not really easy to understand all of this without a proficient understanding of operating system kernels and the way they work, and without an understanding of how computing systems work down to the hardware abstraction. I tried my best to explain it in simpler terms :)
    10-29-2013 04:56 PM
  3. mase123987's Avatar
    It's hard to explain, but first you have to understand more about the vast differences in software and hardware architectures. The way consoles are designed differs a lot from the way a PC is designed.

    For instance, a PC has an entire layer of software just for drivers. Without a driver layer, you can greatly increase the throughput of an operating system. A console does not have modular and interchanging hardware, so the computations going to and from the graphics card do not have to pass through a software layer such as drivers.

    It's the way the software and hardware comes together as a whole. Individually consoles and PC's have a lot of similarities, but as a whole, the two systems are miles apart. A good example is the kind of graphics power that can be achieved from an Xbox 360. Take an equivalent graphics card in a PC and you will never achieve comparable results.



    As far as PC's not able to get better, you're absolutely right. They most certainly can. The problem is they rarely do. Because of how fast the hardware advances in the PC world, developers don't really need to optimize their code to expand the capabilities of older systems. They can simply assume that if you want better performance and results, you are going to upgrade to better hardware that is more capable of processing their code.

    On the other hand, console developers know the hardware will never change. The only way a console will improve is with optimizations in the software. So while a PC developer can do the same, they simply aren't focused on the same areas as a console developer.

    It's not really easy to understand all of this without a proficient understanding of operating system kernels and the way they work, and without an understanding of how computing systems work down to the hardware abstraction. I tried my best to explain it in simpler terms :)
    Well that was a long post to just say "I think you don't know what you are talking about. I think I need to dumb things down for you."

    Very simple man. Consoles are optimized more then PCs. Everyone knows that. PCs can and do get better with driver updates. PCs don't see the same level of improvement, but they do see it. All that said, PCs will always provide the best graphics. This paragraph sums it all up nicely.
    10-29-2013 05:03 PM
  4. Keith Wallace's Avatar
    Isn't all of that what AMD's new Mantle platform is aimed at, bringing PCs closer to console levels of optimization?
    10-29-2013 05:38 PM
  5. FearL0rd's Avatar
    How it compares against my 486 DX2 66 ?
    RJ Priest likes this.
    10-29-2013 06:16 PM
  6. Robert Carpenter's Avatar
    Well that was a long post to just say "I think you don't know what you are talking about. I think I need to dumb things down for you."

    Very simple man. Consoles are optimized more then PCs. Everyone knows that. PCs can and do get better with driver updates. PCs don't see the same level of improvement, but they do see it. All that said, PCs will always provide the best graphics. This paragraph sums it all up nicely.
    Well I was trying to put it in a way that didn't make it sound as harsh/mean lol. I didn't wanna say you don't know what you are talking about, because we are basically anonymous here. You could be an electrical engineer for all I know haha.

    And yes, PC's can get better with driver updates, but they will never be able to max out performance compared to eliminated the complete driver layer entirely.

    A guess a simple comparison is to say that the driver layer is like Bing Translator (if it were perfect). It doesn't matter if the drivers can translate the instructions perfectly. It will always be better if both sides speak the same language and don't need translation.

    Another thing consoles eliminate is a PCI bus communication with the graphics card and the memory bus for the RAM. When you add all these up, you get way more powerful hardware than you would get from a PC with the same specs. All centered around architecture.

    You get the idea though. Rather, I'm hoping others reading this learn a thing or two :)
    10-29-2013 07:18 PM
  7. FearL0rd's Avatar
    The true is: DirectX is more optimized than OpenGL for gaming...
    10-29-2013 07:32 PM
  8. Robert Carpenter's Avatar
    The true is: DirectX is more optimized than OpenGL for gaming...
    False, there is no clear winner because they are too dependent of their environments and other factors :)
    10-29-2013 07:38 PM
  9. FearL0rd's Avatar
    False, there is no clear winner because they are too dependent of their environments and other factors :)

    Just look the FPS
    10-29-2013 08:07 PM
  10. TechFreak1's Avatar
    Argh.. I can't see the video as I am currently on tether on my L920 (Sky haven't activated my internet yet which was today -.-). the anticipation is killing me lol. In any case if you prefer the PS4 stick with it same with the X1 and just enjoy the damned console. Instead of just bashing one and another, the idea of games was that they were made to be enjoyed as entertainment not for an all out specs brawl. Honestly it is like kids squabbling in kindergarten / nursery over petty things. I can't wait to get my hands both of these consoles and just play :P.

    Lastly anyway you look at it the PC will always dominate graphically if you have the cash to burn on a monster of a rig (water cooled, over clocked, sli / crossfire etc etc). However console games tend to come to the PC alot later i.e the GTA series or not at all, though the switch to x86 architecture might change that.
    10-29-2013 08:30 PM
  11. Keith Wallace's Avatar
    Other than GTA, when have we really seen a cross-platform console game take time to get over to the PC? I can't think of any instance.
    10-29-2013 10:53 PM
  12. RJ Priest's Avatar
    A year or two from now, it'll be interesting to see if the PS4 is really pushing some jaw dropping visuals, but for me at this moment in time, I'd like to get the Xbox One for these reasons:

    - I like the feel and design of the Xbox controller better than Playstation.
    - Forza 5
    - Dead Rising 3

    Having gone from PS2 to Xbox 360, whenever I now go back to holding a PS2 or PS3 controller, I just hate the feel of it. Forget graphics, the controller is the system seller for me, lol. :p
    10-30-2013 12:43 AM
  13. berty6294's Avatar
    A year or two from now, it'll be interesting to see if the PS4 is really pushing some jaw dropping visuals, but for me at this moment in time, I'd like to get the Xbox One for these reasons:

    - I like the feel and design of the Xbox controller better than Playstation.
    - Forza 5
    - Dead Rising 3

    Having gone from PS2 to Xbox 360, whenever I now go back to holding a PS2 or PS3 controller, I just hate the feel of it. Forget graphics, the controller is the system seller for me, lol. :p
    FORZA FTW!!!!

    And I agree about the controller, every time I use the PS3 or PS2 controllers, I can only play for a short period of time because after an hour (or less sometimes) I feel like I'm about to get blisters because of how uncomfortable the controller is! With the Xbox I have never had to stop playing because of discomfort in the controller, it really forms nicely to everyone hands! (even my abnormally large hands)
    RJ Priest likes this.
    10-30-2013 09:05 AM
  14. jlzimmerman's Avatar
    I'm going to ask about the elephant in the room. If there is not clear winner or if XBOne is better, why does MS have a review embargo on its console?
    10-30-2013 01:06 PM
  15. Coreldan's Avatar
    I'm going to ask about the elephant in the room. If there is not clear winner or if XBOne is better, why does MS have a review embargo on its console?
    Well, in-house build is typically much further than any half-public build, and what we've seen about the current half-public builds is that they've still been quite buggy. I guess it's not a typical scenario to have such embargo since it makes some people wonder, but I guess it can be said that in media Xbox One can be seen as the underdog for now, maybe they are waiting to have as far polished product before they let media throw more barely justified **** at it. It's not even that PS4 is anything special, it's only in it's current glorified media spot cos they've taken no risks with anything in conjunction with masses not liking the risks Microsoft went for.

    I don't think the review embargo necessarily has to do with the quality of games, there's much more to the console. We can see how the game performs on Xbox One right there and I think it's quite clear that if there is no clear winner, at least PS4 has nowhere near the kind of superior gap to the Xbox One that it judging from most of the media should've had.

    Maybe I'm just a fanboy, who knows, but at least after seeing this video, a review embargo is not what I'm worried about and personally I'd think the embargo would be more about the OS-level of things rather than game performance at this time.
    WinFan1 likes this.
    10-30-2013 01:33 PM
  16. sinime's Avatar
    A year or two from now, it'll be interesting to see if the PS4 is really pushing some jaw dropping visuals, but for me at this moment in time, I'd like to get the Xbox One for these reasons:

    - I like the feel and design of the Xbox controller better than Playstation.
    - Forza 5
    - Dead Rising 3

    Having gone from PS2 to Xbox 360, whenever I now go back to holding a PS2 or PS3 controller, I just hate the feel of it. Forget graphics, the controller is the system seller for me, lol. :p
    LOL, same 2 launch titles I have on preorder :D
    RJ Priest likes this.
    10-30-2013 03:13 PM
  17. WinFan1's Avatar
    yay now ps4 fans can stfu! :D
    10-30-2013 03:47 PM
  18. WinFan1's Avatar
    Argh.. I can't see the video as I am currently on tether on my L920 (Sky haven't activated my internet yet which was today -.-). the anticipation is killing me lol. In any case if you prefer the PS4 stick with it same with the X1 and just enjoy the damned console. Instead of just bashing one and another, the idea of games was that they were made to be enjoyed as entertainment not for an all out specs brawl. Honestly it is like kids squabbling in kindergarten / nursery over petty things. I can't wait to get my hands both of these consoles and just play :P.

    Lastly anyway you look at it the PC will always dominate graphically if you have the cash to burn on a monster of a rig (water cooled, over clocked, sli / crossfire etc etc). However console games tend to come to the PC alot later i.e the GTA series or not at all, though the switch to x86 architecture might change that.
    unfortunately that cant happen because consumers have this idiotic thing about having the better product.
    10-30-2013 03:51 PM
  19. FearL0rd's Avatar
    FORZA FTW!!!!

    And I agree about the controller, every time I use the PS3 or PS2 controllers, I can only play for a short period of time because after an hour (or less sometimes) I feel like I'm about to get blisters because of how uncomfortable the controller is! With the Xbox I have never had to stop playing because of discomfort in the controller, it really forms nicely to everyone hands! (even my abnormally large hands)
    I'm not going to buy forza anymore.. I have a very expensive Racing Wheel from Fanatec Racing Wheels and what I heard the one will not support old controllers :(
    10-30-2013 08:07 PM
  20. sinime's Avatar
    I'm not going to buy forza anymore.. I have a very expensive Racing Wheel from Fanatec Racing Wheels and what I heard the one will not support old controllers :(
    That's the norm... Controllers aren't usually forward compatible... Partly because they add new features and partly cause they want you to buy more stuff
    10-30-2013 08:19 PM
  21. FearL0rd's Avatar
    That's the norm... Controllers aren't usually forward compatible... Partly because they add new features and partly cause they want you to buy more stuff
    a professional racing cockpit doesn't require new features... I'm sure it is better them any controller that Microsoft will put on the market... They should recognize any USB controller like PC does. If the controller has functionalities use it, if not disable it..

    WIFI I agree not usb
    10-30-2013 08:30 PM
  22. unstoppablekem's Avatar
    Going to the midnight launch at my best buy store for the X1.
    FearL0rd likes this.
    10-30-2013 08:42 PM
  23. sinime's Avatar
    Going to midnight launch at my local Game Stop for the X1. Taking that Friday off as well ;)

    Hmmm, I'm Central time.... Maybe we should start a thread for each time zone to chit chat while in line... Although I guess it wouldn't matter what time zone, just one thread and each time zone can be active at their respective times... BTW, anyone here happen to order their day One from the GS in San Antonio near DeZavala and I-10, across from Wal-Mart? Just curious, cause that's where my preorder is at, would be cool if there were other WPC peeps there.
    FearL0rd likes this.
    10-30-2013 10:33 PM
  24. trainplane's Avatar
    Well it's confirmed that COD is 720p vs 1080p in favor of PS4.

    Confirmed -- 'Call Of Duty: Ghosts' Runs At A Lower Native Resolution On Xbox One - Forbes

    I would say this is a pretty big technical failure on MS' part. Remember that this is supposed to be a system that is going to last 7+ years unless it tanks badly. We're now in the 1080p era and the XB1 can't even beat the 360 in resolution? Sure it'll look better, but 720p? The question that's important is whether this is an early development issue that will be ironed out by 2014 or if it really is a true limitation on the XB1.

    As a fan of the Xbox controller over the PS controller, I'm pretty disappointed, even though I don't care about COD in particular. Now I'm just hoping most of the XB1 exclusives also come to PC with controller support. By the end of 2014, with Maxwell 20nm and AMD's next GCN at 20nm, it wouldn't cost much to exceed the XB1's graphics on a mid-range card.
    10-30-2013 11:19 PM
  25. berty6294's Avatar
    Well it's confirmed that COD is 720p vs 1080p in favor of PS4.

    Confirmed -- 'Call Of Duty: Ghosts' Runs At A Lower Native Resolution On Xbox One - Forbes

    I would say this is a pretty big technical failure on MS' part. Remember that this is supposed to be a system that is going to last 7+ years unless it tanks badly. We're now in the 1080p era and the XB1 can't even beat the 360 in resolution? Sure it'll look better, but 720p? The question that's important is whether this is an early development issue that will be ironed out by 2014 or if it really is a true limitation on the XB1.

    As a fan of the Xbox controller over the PS controller, I'm pretty disappointed, even though I don't care about COD in particular. Now I'm just hoping most of the XB1 exclusives also come to PC with controller support. By the end of 2014, with Maxwell 20nm and AMD's next GCN at 20nm, it wouldn't cost much to exceed the XB1's graphics on a mid-range card.
    Uh I believe the COD series for the 360 were native 1040x600. I guess 720p isn't better than that?

    And this is an initial 3rd party, I promise you, when developed correctly for the Xbox One platform, the games will look ages better than the PS4, and I'm willing to bet Forza 5 will be an example of that!

    Plus COD sucks.
    10-30-2013 11:36 PM
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