04-08-2015 09:05 PM
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  1. jlzimmerman's Avatar
    I believe you're correct. WP is being treated now as Android was in the past. So the question is: why did Android take off (explode might be a more fitting term), but WP remains stagnant?
    Because there was a lot of room to grow. The reason Android got a foot hold is because AT&T had the iPhone exclusively. This left the other carriers clamoring for a competitor to keep up. Enter the Droid 1 and 2, Droid X, Galaxy S, etc…

    In hindsight, if Apple didn’t go exclusive with AT&T Android may have been another Symbian, or have similar market share as WP today. In 2009/2010 the market was an open field, not saturated like it is today. And at the time RIM was being stubborn and refused to change with the times. The iPhone and Android had wide open spaces to explode.

    Like with so many other things, once people get attached to tech and swear their allegiance, it’s hard to get them to switch. Often times they love to hate the competitor of their beloved tech of choice, especially one which is the unfamiliar from a company that already has a bad reputation (Microsoft).

    The poorly informed and clearly biased salespeople at the carrier stores are one of the MAJOR roadblocks that prevent WP from growing. If MS isn’t going to tackle this problem then they need a MS store on every street corner on the planet because that may be the only way to get their phones in people’s hands without a sales person sneering their disapproval upon the customer.
    12-02-2014 09:18 AM
  2. tgp's Avatar
    So you don't blame the carriers for not putting out a completed update or for taking months to test an update that could daily be tested in a couple weeks? You also don't see a connection between low numbers of users and representatives pushing people to other platforms?
    I don't blame the carriers. What's the incentive?

    You have to remember that you look at it from the side of a WP fan. The carrier looks at it from the financial side. You say, "Forget profits! They're already making millions. I want to see WP sold because it's the best!" The carrier says, "Let's see, iPhones and Samsung Androids are the most profitable; let's push those! Customers like them and they return to replace them after 2 years. The return rate is low." The carrier doesn't give a flip which OS is moving. It only cares which OS's, or devices, are moving. What's the point of pushing a 3rd platform that's an underdog? Would it profit the carriers if WP's were the popular devices rather than iPhones and Androids?

    Low sales can be the result of a number of factors. Where I work, if something doesn't sell well enough, we drop it. However, we are probably more objective than a lot of phone reps. Reports are that Windows Phones have a relatively high rate of return. Why is that? I don't know; I'm asking. I know in my workplace we have a much higher ratio of WPs than the market. I'm employed by a Microsoft partner. The WPs among us are sent in for warranty at a much higher rate than the iPhones or Androids. It's a very small sample size, but that's what we see.

    Any one of these forums is obviously going to be biased toward its platform. The carriers are biased too... they're biased towards the highest profits. That's their goal, and that's why they make the choices they do.

    Now let me come over to your side: I don't understand why the US carriers choose to carry WP in the first place if they then ignore it. They must see something in it to even have it available in the first place. That's probably where rep bias comes in. But yet the bean counters upstairs mustn't care too much about it since nothing seems to change.
    FinancialP likes this.
    12-02-2014 09:50 AM
  3. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    I don't blame the carriers. What's the incentive?

    You have to remember that you look at it from the side of a WP fan. The carrier looks at it from the financial side. You say, "Forget profits! They're already making millions. I want to see WP sold because it's the best!" The carrier says, "Let's see, iPhones and Samsung Androids are the most profitable; let's push those! Customers like them and they return to replace them after 2 years. The return rate is low." The carrier doesn't give a flip which OS is moving. It only cares which OS's, or devices, are moving. What's the point of pushing a 3rd platform that's an underdog? Would it profit the carriers if WP's were the popular devices rather than iPhones and Androids?

    Low sales can be the result of a number of factors. Where I work, if something doesn't sell well enough, we drop it. However, we are probably more objective than a lot of phone reps. Reports are that Windows Phones have a relatively high rate of return. Why is that? I don't know; I'm asking. I know in my workplace we have a much higher ratio of WPs than the market. I'm employed by a Microsoft partner. The WPs among us are sent in for warranty at a much higher rate than the iPhones or Androids. It's a very small sample size, but that's what we see.

    Any one of these forums is obviously going to be biased toward its platform. The carriers are biased too... they're biased towards the highest profits. That's their goal, and that's why they make the choices they do.

    Now let me come over to your side: I don't understand why the US carriers choose to carry WP in the first place if they then ignore it. They must see something in it to even have it available in the first place. That's probably where rep bias comes in. But yet the bean counters upstairs mustn't care too much about it since nothing seems to change.
    Their incentive for pushing an update is that they should give a crap about their customers. No, seriously, they should.
    tgp likes this.
    12-02-2014 10:41 AM
  4. Jeremynelson1987's Avatar
    What's funny to me is that everyone who carries Windows Phones has tried to sway me to something else when I ask about them. Here's a normal sales conversation at Phone Store X (this is really what happened)

    Me: I heard a lot of good things about the Lumia 92X- do you guys carry it

    Rep: Yeah, but you don't want that phone. We just got the new Galaxy lineup, and they're great phones.

    Me: Actually, I'd like to see the Lumia, please.

    Rep then normally shows me the phone while only half selling it to me. S/he doesn't know half the stats/features they know about the iGalaxy S.

    What the phone companies need to do is hire people who are diverse in their phone use. The battle is lost when not a single rep at Phone Store X has personally used your phone. At the very least, Rep 1 can call Rep 2 over for support because Rep 2 is a Windows Phone user.

    You have to start at the root. People don't buy the phones, but there's nobody at the store to advocate for them. Obviously Microsoft doesn't have any pull over T-Mobile's hiring decisions, but that's where the problem starts- uninformed reps who either bury or ignore your hardware.
    12-02-2014 10:56 AM
  5. tgp's Avatar
    Their incentive for pushing an update is that they should give a crap about their customers. No, seriously, they should.
    Have you ever heard of a carrier that does? They have a lot more problems in that area than caring about WP.
    12-02-2014 11:54 AM
  6. runamuck83's Avatar
    I have a hidden camera recorded conversation of me and a Verizon store rep (kind of creepy, I know - but I wanted to confirm for myself whether the stores are really so biased).

    I went in asking about a HTC M8 with Windows - and the guy basically told me I'm better off with an iPhone or a Galaxy.

    Should I upload the recording?
    12-02-2014 01:53 PM
  7. EBUK's Avatar
    why did Android take off (explode might be a more fitting term), but WP remains stagnant?
    Two words: Microsoft Windows. It was those two words that kept me away from Window Phone for a long time, despite being tempted.

    Let's face it, Microsoft does not have the best reputation. It's monopolistic practices of the past are impressed on people's memories, and the arrogance and idiotic behaviour of people like Ballmer, do nothing to enhance the image.

    And Windows... people do not forget dll hell, BSOD, unhelpful numeric-code error messages, security holes, dreadful browsing experiences, terrible search, Hotmail spamming, viruses, viruses, and more viruses, slow and buggy operating systems, registry corruption, etc.

    So Windows on a phone sounds like a terrible idea. Really, it's an image problem. MS has to get out and shout out loudly that Windows Phone does not suffer from those problems. Alas, MS remains silent, and people wonder why.
    12-02-2014 02:50 PM
  8. ajb1965's Avatar
    I have to say I agree with you on several points EBUK. My first reaction when a coworker showed me his WP7 device was sarcastic to say the least. The Windows PC OS has had to endure a lot of public ridicule and overcome a lot of scrutiny, and still remains just an OK operating system after over 20 years of development. But love it or hate it, it's the OS of choice for the desktop market overall.

    Fast forward to WP and you have a completely different animal. Generally more stable than Android but more customizable than IOS (read generally!), and that it's often paired with unique hardware and camera features not found elsewhere should make it a top contender. But I fear it may be the Betamax of mobile OS due to the sins of the father. I don't mind though. As long as MS sticks with WP I will stick with it regardless of the percentage of user base it has in the mobile market.

    My 2 cents (again)
    antiochian2010 likes this.
    12-02-2014 03:44 PM
  9. EBUK's Avatar
    The Betamax, the MiniDisc, the Sony Alpha... great tech, all from Sony, all now defunct, and Sony has died a slow death (I won't touch anything from Sony anymore.)

    Sometimes, with the rise of the smartphone and tablets, it looks like MS is dying a slow death. It needs to rise like a Phoenix from the ashes of it's past mistakes but without alienating existing WP stalwarts..
    ajb1965 likes this.
    12-02-2014 04:10 PM
  10. Silviu Bogusevschi's Avatar
    The Betamax, the MiniDisc, the Sony Alpha... great tech, all from Sony, all now defunct, and Sony has died a slow death (I won't touch anything from Sony anymore.)

    Sometimes, with the rise of the smartphone and tablets, it looks like MS is dying a slow death. It needs to rise like a Phoenix from the ashes of it's past mistakes but without alienating existing WP stalwarts..
    Just like Conchita..?
    12-02-2014 05:18 PM
  11. qa_ninja's Avatar
    I would of thought (as a customer), they would of trained them (the employee) to handle ALL types of products they sold; perhaps like a small class no more than one hour a day? Fortunately if I have a problem with my stuff I tend to solve it on my own before calling support.
    Sent from my iPad mini 2 using Tapatalk


    sorry, I can say that's not the case. I feel they teach each employee to recognize the phones. Then they tell them what phone they want to push. So every employee will go "Oh, yeah, I recognize that phone, I use to have it. I got a ________ phone now". Then you ask them to do stuff on your phone, it's funny to see them look up their help pages on how to do stuff :).

    Source: Decided to quiz the phone folks at AT&T and T-mobile along with Verizon/Sprint over the years as I debated changing plans, complaining of data usage, low signal strength, etc.
    Guytronic likes this.
    12-02-2014 05:28 PM
  12. metalchick719's Avatar
    I guess I've been lucky. When I originally toyed with the idea of getting the 925 (I was using an unlocked Rogers 920 at the time) at the T-Mobile store nearest me, the rep who helped me was actually very nice and didn't say a word against Windows Phone. The only time she did try to sway me toward Android was when I said I wished the 925 had a microSD slot and had to set her straight that it didn't have one. Other than that, she was very positive about the phone and platform in general even though she didn't have experience personally using WP.

    As for the OP's experience, well, you just gotta love blatant ignorance. The heck with that!
    Guytronic likes this.
    12-02-2014 05:33 PM
  13. several potatos's Avatar
    It seems Microsoft has a big problem with Windows Phone perception among T-Mobile store representatives! Two days ago I visited the T-Mobile store in my city about speaker problem with my Lumia 925. As soon as I mentioned that I have a Windows Phone with speakers not working, the sales rep at the counter immediately blurted out that Windows Phone is the worst phone ever. There were other customers in the store who also heard the sales rep. rant. Of course, when I mentioned that I have no problems with Windows Phone, and other branded phones can also have speaker problems, she mentioned that she cannot provide any help with Windows Phone. Fortunately, the speakers started working after a while.

    Hope Microsoft corrects such erroneous perceptions.
    I actually came here to defend my fellow T-Mobile rep, but really, that's not something that I would accept in my own store. Forget ALL the phone OS wars; you don't ever, ever, ever tell a paying customer "I can't help you" about a product you sold them. We have tons of tools in our stores to deal with every handset. I don't know or like Blackberry, but I have a devoted database about it courtesy of T-Mobile. Further, all she had to do if she wanted to be lazy was exchange it under a warranty claim. Making a warranty claim is honestly one of the easiest processes in T-Mobile. All you do is write down what the customer claimed was wrong, select the model, and ship the phone to the billing address.

    We reps aren't all bad. I promise.
    Guytronic and tgp like this.
    12-02-2014 06:00 PM
  14. mark233's Avatar
    I guess I've been lucky. When I originally toyed with the idea of getting the 925 (I was using an unlocked Rogers 920 at the time) at the T-Mobile store nearest me, the rep who helped me was actually very nice and didn't say a word against Windows Phone.
    This has been my experience where I live ..... at 3 different stores.
    Guytronic and metalchick719 like this.
    12-02-2014 06:11 PM
  15. rollindice's Avatar
    I call that T-Mobile store representative a clown,he wanna make jokes he should join the circus
    12-02-2014 06:30 PM
  16. antiochian2010's Avatar
    I have to give my local T-Mobile store (Downtown Burbank) a big thumbs-up now. For the last 4 years or so, I have been going in there showing off my exotic, non-T-Mobile windows phones - all running perfectly on T-Mobile's SIM. Lumia 800, Lumia 900, PureView 808 (ok that one was Symbian, but was showing off the camera) and Lumia 1020 - and most recently my new 930 Green. The last visit, I was actually trying to find out about the special SIM in NanoSIM for POS purchasing via NFC.
    Up until a year ago, my quick show off demos were greeted with skeptical sneers (except they loved the 808's camera). Also, their WP phones were tucked off in a corner with no power, so were all non-working.
    Now, the staff there is getting more knowledgeable about WP, have nice things to say about it other than "I don't use one myself but I'm starting to hear good things from customers" and one even admitted that there's no 'real' app gap anymore!
    The phones are new, clean and actually placed front & center with me-phones and Drones!

    I totally agree with an earlier post in which it was mentioned that Apple helped create Droid by the exclusivity with ATT (and having very poor service on the same for a number of years). I would probably have picked up iPhone myself except I rebelled against moving to AT&T and resented Apple highly for bricking the jailbreak phones without discriminating about who had paid for the phone outright vs paying a lower contract price. That put me on Android for a year which led me to the Windows Phone Launcher someone had created - which in turn led me to the real thing!
    Guytronic likes this.
    12-04-2014 01:01 PM
  17. kiddori's Avatar
    I can chime in...

    When I returned my 635, the rep said "I never recommend anyone to get a Windows Phone. When I explained to him why I want/need one, his responded "well, maybe they're getting better, but I still stay away."

    One thing to remember and I why I take reps with a grain of salt, is that they are the lowest paid T-Mobile employees with often not much technical skills (I know there are exceptions). They don't get paid to know everything about all phones and are usually swayed by sales and internal memos.

    I do agree that T-Mobile should improve their relationship with MS.




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    prasath1234 likes this.
    12-08-2014 11:24 AM
  18. Mike Majeski's Avatar
    Went up to a T-Mobile kiosk in a mall by Cleveland hoping they had the M8 on display - they only have the Android version. However, the rep did know a bit about Windows Phone. Knew a bit more about the M8 android version, but did say that if I liked Windows Phone the M8 would be a great choice.
    12-10-2014 11:07 AM
  19. RumoredNow's Avatar
    I have NO knock against T-Mo reps in the stores. Where I live they are ALL franchises not corporate stores. I think the reps do a pretty good job.

    Do they know a lot about Windows Phone - no.

    As a consumer, it is ultimately my responsibility to educate myself anyway. Consumers that don't, that blindly follow what sales people say get ripped off and unhappy pretty quickly anyway.

    A phone is a major purchase. Even for a billionaire like Richard Branson who owns a carrier. Your cell phone is always with you. You use it all the time. If it is a smart phone you count on it for so much more than a comm lifeline.

    Why would you entrust that decision to someone you never met before?

    ​I never mind talking to the reps. I actually enjoy it quite a lot. But I would never buy what they wanted over what I wanted...
    12-10-2014 11:27 AM
  20. Mike Majeski's Avatar
    I know this thread is related to T-Mobile, but here's one that frustrated me recently. Walk into a BestBuy in NJ by my parents house, from the front of the store you can see they have a gigantic Windows section - it's actually Apple and Google that are tucked away in the corner.

    While they have the Surface Pro 3 front and center, as well as laptops and desktops, the Windows 8 tablets are dumped in among the generic Android offerings at the front of the store. The Google section has chromebooks and Nexus tablets, the Samsung section has everything from the gear to phones, tablets and chromebooks. Apple has all of their products to try out. Only Microsoft has the phones buried in the phone section and the tablets in the tablet section.

    If you are going to invest in having a huge Windows section, why not have all the tablets and phones there, instead of hiding them with the common junk?
    01-01-2015 11:15 AM
  21. sixseven's Avatar
    I'm not the type of person to go looking for a fight, but I also tend to push back when confronted.

    In the examples listed above, I would have made sure the store managers knew that the associate insulted me. Yes, insulted... If I go into a retail store, I'm looking for help and service in exchange for my dollars. I do not go in there to hear negative opinions about my consumer choices.

    Don't argue the strengths of Windows Phone, that'll get you nowhere. Get the manager involved, and I bet the rep never does this again. Also, he/she might be forced to get more training on WP.
    RumoredNow and antiochian2010 like this.
    01-17-2015 10:39 AM
  22. Mike Majeski's Avatar
    Had my first negative T-Mobile experience last night. Went to the store in Fairview Park / Rocky River - my girlfriend was looking to jump from iPhone 6 to the Galaxy Avant to save some money each month on the EIP ($5 vs the $30 she was paying for an iPhone she barely used). I was also going to trade in my 6+ and get the Lumia 635. A rep at a kiosk last week told me I owe $550, I would get $407 back towards it and would only have to pay the difference when it got posted to my account - fair enough since I would have to wait to July to Jump and pay that amount anyway.

    We both knew exactly what we wanted and stated all of this to the sales rep. She immediately gets defensive and asks why we are unhappy with the iPhone (none of her business) and said that she can assure us we will hate the Avant and the Windows Phone. She then proceeded to tell me that I would have to pay the $550 remaining on my iPhone up front and then T-Mobile would credit the $407 later. I explained what the person at the mall kiosk told me and she said no, they're wrong and again reiterated why the iPhone is better than the 635. I told her I use the 635 for work and I am more than happy with it. She then told my girlfriend that should couldn't process the Jump order either, because the Avant wasn't showing up in the system.

    No manager around, so we got the hell out of there and drove to the North Olmstead Mall. Needless to say, they did the Jump for my girlfriend and processed the trade in exactly how it was explained to me last week. We talked to the guy for awhile and while he did say it was rare for people to downgrade from the iPhone, it's understandable and we're free to want what we want.

    Just shows how the attitude can vary so much between locations. One person literally did everything she could to prevent us from walking away satisfied, while the other guy did exactly what we, as the customer, wanted.
    01-27-2015 03:23 PM
  23. RumoredNow's Avatar
    ...We both knew exactly what we wanted and stated all of this to the sales rep. She immediately gets defensive and asks why we are unhappy with the iPhone (none of her business) and said that she can assure us we will hate the Avant and the Windows Phone. She then proceeded to tell me that I would have to pay the $550 remaining on my iPhone up front and then T-Mobile would credit the $407 later. I explained what the person at the mall kiosk told me and she said no, they're wrong and again reiterated why the iPhone is better than the 635. I told her I use the 635 for work and I am more than happy with it. She then told my girlfriend that should couldn't process the Jump order either, because the Avant wasn't showing up in the system...
    Hope you got her name. It is worth a follow up conversation with whomever runs that store.
    01-27-2015 03:36 PM
  24. deathdealer35's Avatar
    Because at the time iPhone was att only, the other choice was blackberry.

    If you wanted a touch screen you had android if you were not on att. Then gingerbread came out and made it usable, followed by a killer device in the Galaxy s3. With no other competition it wins by default.

    Posted via the Windows Phone Central App
    02-25-2015 10:23 AM
  25. terryb99's Avatar
    When I stopped by a tmobile store to ask a question, several salespeople almost laughed when I pulled out my 925.
    When I upgraded to my S5 at Verizon, I mentioned I really liked the Icon, but was not ready to make a Windows phone my main phone. She said no one likes or buys windows phones.
    Microsoft has a long way to go.

    Posted via the Windows Central App for Android
    03-08-2015 12:30 PM
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