05-28-2018 12:47 PM
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  1. anon(7929613)'s Avatar
    they simply decided to exit the consumer mobile race, as Nadella clearly said and deeply believes that consumer mobile space has "need" only for IOS and Android.
    Then why spend time and money again on developing OneCore with composable shells? Any device with screen size more than 7" can anyways run full Windows 10.
    01-23-2018 08:22 AM
  2. Dono Newcomb's Avatar
    Interesting, I am not sure I want to give up win32, I am not sure most people want that either. Both software and hardware are becoming more and more sophisticated, it seems that it would naturally be able to handle the older standards. I have to wonder why win32 is destined for the trash. I like the control that my system gives me. Is this about people reusing older software and not buying the latest and greatest stuff?
    01-23-2018 07:27 PM
  3. amits1024's Avatar
    The only thing that makes no sense is they invested so much time and effort in developing a mobile platform and when it was actually beginning to become a full fledged OS in the form of W10M, they killed it.

    1. W10M today has all the features unlike WP8.1 and works fluently unlike initial 2015 builds.

    2. It's file system is probably the best.

    3. It's security and integration with Windows 10 for PC it's also among the best.

    4. It supports OTG and WiFi direct.

    KILLING IT AT NOW IS LIKE WITHDRAWING FROM THE RACE JUST BEFORE THE FINISH LINE.

    This can only be possible if they have found a better alternative due to which it made no sense to further continue the development of W10M. The new alternative will use all the developments and features of W10M. That can be the only explanation.
    Yes hate it that Microsoft didn't even launch 1 phone after the Anniversary update in 2016. HP elite X3 & Alcatel idol 4s were launched after that. And after the Creators update in 2017, no windows phone was launched by any manufacturer. And after Fall creators update, only windows phone launched was Willeyfox pro

    Microsoft's mistake was to not even release phones after the OS became more and more improved. After the creators update in 2017, Microsoft should have launched 2 phones & got HP to launch a new phone too. Other manufacturers would have joined in too. Also Microsoft should have backed the existing OS and provided a smooth transition from current mobile OS to the new One core Os
    anon(7929613) likes this.
    01-24-2018 06:58 AM
  4. amits1024's Avatar
    they simply decided to exit the consumer mobile race, as Nadella clearly said and deeply believes that consumer mobile space has "need" only for IOS and Android.
    so they will keep expanding services on these platforms.
    More mobile OS are needed. Android has a lot of issues and Apple has got arrogant and many Apple fanboys are switching to Android now. Some of them would have switched to Windows too if Microsoft had backed their OS

    Apps is not a issue at all. Just get good browser and all things which can be done from apps can be done from the browser too and a lot of space can be saved as well
    01-24-2018 07:02 AM
  5. Krystianpants's Avatar
    Then why spend time and money again on developing OneCore with composable shells? Any device with screen size more than 7" can anyways run full Windows 10.
    The idea is that hardware will not be the limitation. And when someone develops a UWP app the app does not need to have extra work done for specific hardware. There won't be any checkmarks simply the scaling will happen as part of the 1 OS. Developers won't have to worry about the extra work that a mobile os that has limitations imposes. So they are set for any future hardware that may be introduced. This also makes sure that if 3rd party hardware providers decide to go with windows they don't have to worry about the OS for that particular hardware being abandoned.

    Today HP Elite X3 has become obsolete. With the new "andromeda" version of the OS. It would continue to be supported for the lifetime of the OS and hardware chip. Since the OS will run both x86 and ARM hardware by default regardless of its size.

    The main idea is that they want to change the concept of separate hardware for separate functionality. The reason 2-in-1's are popular is because they provide people a tablet and a business functional computer. They do not have to buy an ipad and a macbook. They get both in one. It's not as elaborate as say having both separately because windows 10 is still not mature and the app ecosystem is also lacking. But both Google and Apple are heading in a similar direction. In the future likely 3-in-1's will be the main products sold. Of course this depends on the hardware technology for allowing folding and unfolding of screens. The hardware is still not mature, but it is the direction that most hardware research is heading. Samsung and LG have both been working on screens that can fold. The only thing that will be missing is the operating system that gives the best experience. Right now MS is ahead of the game in this concept. However Google is already pretty far based on the alpha tests that have shown Fuscia running on pixelbooks. Apple is working on merging ios/macos as well.

    MS dismissed the coming of phones. And their biggest problem was of course the OS. they could never just dump their os on the hardware and be quick enough to meet the consumer demand. It required creating separate teams and trying to rush while the competitors gained shares. It was followed by mistakes and amateur beliefs. So windows 10 should be the OS that can jump on any trend quickly. This way they don't lose market share while competitors are ahead.

    Of course, further into the future when bandwidth is not a big problem OS's will run from the cloud and could be subscription based. You take your hardware and pay monthly fee to have an OS on it. You don't like an OS? Just switch to another Cloud OS. The hardware will be super portable, adaptable and not require too many parts.
    01-24-2018 09:37 AM
  6. a5cent's Avatar
    Then why spend time and money again on developing OneCore with composable shells? Any device with screen size more than 7" can anyways run full Windows 10.
    1.

    You seem to not understand that W10 isn't the future. As I've stated a million times in these forums, W10 is not a consumerized OS. Most people use W10 only because they must. When Chrome/Android and iOS mature and start incorporating more productivity/corporate related features, MS will need an answer. Something that:

    • is equally fool-proof
    • protects users from themselves
    • doesn't require constant maintenance and administration

    None of the current desktop OSes can provide those things. OneCore + UWP + CShell (which we might as well call W10M) can provide that.

    MS is the only company with a whole lot to loose once the fight for that part of the IT market starts heating up. To think MS can rest on three decades old technology and just be happy installing W10 on anything > 7" is a recipe for disaster. That is where OneCore + UWP comes in.

    2.

    OneCore has absolutely nothing to do with any shell, composable or otherwise. See below for more on that.

    I think you contradicted yourself. I am talking about these visual differences that arises because of different shells like the Live tiles, start screen, action and notification centre etc. These need to be unified as well.

    Check out this video where Zac explains the same point.
    No, I'm not contradicting myself. I think our disagreement stems from these two things:

    1. Both of us have completely different ideas of what the word "unification" means
    2. You not quite understanding how Windows is put together


    If I were to install MS Word on my Mac and on my PC, would you then claim the two OSes are more unified? I hope not, as it should be clear that MS Word has absolutely nothing to do with the OS. Right?

    What if I had two Linux desktops, one running Gnome and the other running the Cinnamon desktop environment? If I then uninstalled Cinnamon and installed Gnome, would you then consider those two OSes more unified? You might, but that would be wrong. Why? Because Gnome and Cinnamon aren't part of the OS. That's why you can willy nilly install any desktop environment you want on Linux. You can even remove the desktop environment entirely and the OS will continue to work just fine (command line only). So guess what? Gnome and Cinnamon are Linux shells, just like CShell will be the next Windows shell.

    In the exact same way, CShell is also not part of the OS. CShell is just another UWP app, which Windows launches as the very last step of the boot process.

    Installing CShell on W10M and W10 has about as much to do with unification as installing MS Word (the UWP version) on W10 and W10M does. Exactly Zilch.

    Unification means to unite! When two large companies merge, it's usually the case that redundant positions are eventually eliminated. It simply doesn't make sense to have two departments doing payroll. OS unification is very comparable to that. When WP8.1 and W8 became W10M and W10, hundreds of thousands of lines of code were removed from WP8.1 and replaced with what W10 used. The result of that is called Windows Core OS.


    • CShell is not part of the Windows Core OS. Compared to other OS components, CShell will be a relatively small UWP app that provides the typical desktop UI components (background, task-bar, start-menu, notification center).
    • The Win32 shell (explorer.exe), and supporting libraries (along with a boatload of other stuff) are legacy components. They are already in maintenance mode and they are explicitly and deliberately excluded from unification.
    • The W10M shell is also in maintenance mode.


    So once again, none of the work that went towards unification is being thrown away. Unification resulted in Windows Core OS, which is why I said everything that must be unified has already been unified.

    You made it sound like MS is throwing out all of W10M when all they are throwing out is the old (from WP7/WP8.1) W10M shell, which constitutes at most 2% of the distribution, and is entirely unrelated to the things MS has been working on over the last 5 years.

    That is what I was objecting to.

    Interesting, I am not sure I want to give up win32, I am not sure most people want that either. Both software and hardware are becoming more and more sophisticated, it seems that it would naturally be able to handle the older standards. I have to wonder why win32 is destined for the trash. I like the control that my system gives me. Is this about people reusing older software and not buying the latest and greatest stuff?
    Don't worry. You won't be forced to give up anything. Win32 will still be around for a very long time. Consider that we still have the DOS box at our disposal (which was the OS before Win16) which still runs batch scripts from 1990.

    The takeaway is that all of Win32 is now in maintenance mode. MS is no longer adding anything to it. All of MS' efforts are focused on the UWP side of things.
    Last edited by a5cent; 05-27-2018 at 01:17 PM. Reason: spelling
    01-24-2018 03:40 PM
  7. anon(7929613)'s Avatar
    You made it sound like MS is throwing out all of W10M when all they are throwing out is the old (from WP7/WP8.1) W10M shell, which constitutes at most 2% of the OS, and is entirely unrelated to the things MS has been working on over the last 5 years.

    That is what I was objecting to.
    Without W10M "Shell", Windows 10 cannot be used on smartphones [devices that fits inside pocket]. This is important because mobility brings people and people bring apps & services.

    If W10 cannot be used on devices that fits in a pocket, W10 will be finished long before Nadella can finish writing part 2 of hit refresh.
    Last edited by Satish Singh; 01-25-2018 at 12:00 AM.
    01-24-2018 09:43 PM
  8. a5cent's Avatar
    Without W10M "Shell", Windows 10 cannot be used on smartphones [devices that fits inside pocket]. This is important because mobility brings people and people bring apps & services.

    If W10 cannot be used on devices that fits in a pocket, W10 will be finished long before Nadella can finish writing part 2 of hit refresh.
    Of course W10 can be used on small devices without the existing W10M shell. In fact, you'll have no choice but to use it that way on pocketabke devices, because the existing W10M shell will have been replaced by CShell.

    CShell is just an UWP app that supports continuum. That means it can re-composite it's UI so it's suited to the size of the screen it's displayed on.

    More importantly, nobody wants to run W10 on handheld devices! Least of all MS. That's just an unfortunate but necessary step towards popularizing the UWP.
    Last edited by a5cent; 01-25-2018 at 08:45 AM.
    Dono Newcomb and kaktus1389 like this.
    01-25-2018 04:11 AM
  9. anon(7929613)'s Avatar
    More importantly, nobody wants to run W10 on handheld devices! Least of all MS. That's just an unfortunate but necessary step towards popularizing the UWP.
    Well, Steve Ballmer, Steven Elop, myself, many Lumia fans and people who are fed up of Android & iWhatever want to run W10 on hand held devices! Check out WC forums to understand how passionate people are about W10 on phones.
    01-25-2018 09:06 AM
  10. Dono Newcomb's Avatar
    More importantly, nobody wants to run W10 on handheld devices!
    I am not sure that is entirely accurate. I have never been a fan of the shallow feel of mobile operating systems. From my stand point they have always looked like they should perform the same stuff our computers did, but always left me frustrated and looking to my desktop for my needs. I know that I am not alone. Many people who were raised on iPhones and Android don't know anything else and have become content with being in the kiddie pool. I don't know if I will ever be okay with being shortchanged when I know it is in their power to make and market what people like me really want.
    01-25-2018 09:14 AM
  11. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Anyone advocating full Windows on a 7" screen needs to be examined by a licensed physician. Actually, I have a better idea. Search the interwebz and find a Samsung Q1 Ultra and knock yourselves out. It's tricky to get W10 on them so you might want to try with Win7 first.

    Windows is no longer a touch-friendly desktop OS. The wusses who had hissy fits when W8 removed the start button are 100% to blame and now everybody gets to suffer. Sweet dreams.
    TgeekB and a5cent like this.
    01-25-2018 09:51 AM
  12. darkvegetto's Avatar
    Honestly without groove and some key apps it wouldn't succeed. In other words they need to bring back a lot of stuff too
    01-25-2018 10:20 AM
  13. a5cent's Avatar
    More importantly, nobody wants to run W10 on handheld devices!
    I am not sure that is entirely accurate. I have never been a fan of the shallow feel of mobile operating systems.
    Well, Steve Ballmer, Steven Elop <snipped> want to run W10 on hand held devices! Check out WC forums to understand how passionate people are about W10 on phones.
    I understand you both have your reasons for wanting full W10 with Win32 on a handheld device.

    Looking only at the market right now, completely ignoring where Windows is headed, and assuming we're only talking about using this on screens larger than 7", I understand why you say that. I'm also not a huge fan of the dinky software solutions we call apps. I'm also more interested in the more powerful/professional desktop software.

    I'm just not looking at the "here and now", as much as I'm looking at where things are headed.

    That Ballmer, Elop, or any of the people currently working at MS (who actually still matter) like the idea of W10 with Win32 running on handheld devices is just BS. They certainly like the idea of "Windows" running on such devices, but with that they mean OneCore + UWP, not Win32.

    If executives at MS really liked the idea of Win32 running on handheld devices, then MS would have brought such products to market years ago. We could easily have seen W8 (which also ran on ARM) on handhelds. The reason we're only getting to that now is not because it's such a great idea that was only recently discovered. It's not because it wasn't technically feasible up until now. It's because the products without Win32 (WP/WM), which are what MS really wanted to be successful, failed.

    Despite that failure, MS is still trying to get versions of Windows without Win32 into peoples hands (see Zak's recent article on Polaris and OnceCore). I have no idea if that will work, but at this point I think piggy-backing UWP off of something people will be buying anyway (OneCore + Win32) is likely MS' only shot. That is really the only purpose Win32 still has... helping transport its successor into the mainstream. After that it's lights out for Win32.

    Investments are the main metric by which I judge whether or not something is dead. Using that metric, W10M is alive and well (just not as a separate product or brand), whereas Win32 is the thing that is actually dead. Furthermore, looking around the software development world, you'll likely be very hard pressed to still find developers who are passionate about Win32, a three decades old clunker of an API, which is another sign it is dead. These are the only people who really have a direct interest in an API.

    Non-developers might think they are passionate about Win32, but what they are actually interested in is the grown-up desktop experience it provides and the software they use which relies on Win32. If this software was ported to UWP, or similar UWP based competitors popped up which were better than their Win32 counterparts, then that sentiment would instantly change. Non-developers have no vested and direct interest in Win32 itself...

    That is what I mean when I say nobody cares about Win32.

    If you still disagree that's fine. I'll leave it at that.
    Last edited by a5cent; 01-27-2018 at 09:54 AM. Reason: spelling
    01-27-2018 09:39 AM
  14. Dono Newcomb's Avatar
    That is what I mean when I say nobody cares about Win32.
    I agree with you about all that. It is simply not viable for me to abandon it, I don't think most users can. I would like to see support for it stay in windows at least until we don't need it anymore. We all have investments, I understand that and hopefully my personal investments and where Microsoft is heading will line up, currently it is unrealistic for me and most people I know.

    Microsoft needs to be mindful of the future, but not at the expense of the moment. :D
    a5cent likes this.
    01-27-2018 09:53 AM
  15. techiez's Avatar
    Then why spend time and money again on developing OneCore with composable shells? Any device with screen size more than 7" can anyways run full Windows 10.
    There are tones of enterprise devices running still on windows mobile 6.5, EDAs, handhelds, scanners etc, they are mobile devices, not exactly what you would want to carry in your pockets just coz it has windows, but MS needs to getrid of their legacy OS
    Neeraj Ashu likes this.
    01-27-2018 10:55 PM
  16. techiez's Avatar
    More mobile OS are needed. Android has a lot of issues and Apple has got arrogant and many Apple fanboys are switching to Android now. Some of them would have switched to Windows too if Microsoft had backed their OS

    Apps is not a issue at all. Just get good browser and all things which can be done from apps can be done from the browser too and a lot of space can be saved as well
    Tell that to Nadella, who clearly doesnt see space for third platform
    01-27-2018 10:59 PM
  17. amits1024's Avatar
    Tell that to Nadella, who clearly doesnt see space for third platform
    Atleast 5-6 mobile OS should be there and Windows should be 1 of them alongwith Android, IOS & Linux based OS

    Android has lot of issues and I want to switch from Android to Windows. Will do it provided Microsoft just launches a new windows phone and supports the old ones better. Currently I have a Microsoft Lumia 535 as my backup phone
    01-28-2018 02:14 PM
  18. amits1024's Avatar
    Tell that to Nadella, who clearly doesnt see space for third platform
    And Microsoft needs to get back in mobile fast, by 2018 itself. If they don't get in mobile, in next 4-5 years, even desktop windows might die too :(

    Mobile is the future of OS and Microsoft have to realise it very soon
    01-28-2018 02:16 PM
  19. gary m17's Avatar
    and microsoft needs to get back in mobile fast, by 2018 itself. If they don't get in mobile, in next 4-5 years, even desktop windows might die too :(

    mobile is the future of os and microsoft have to realise it very soon
    i think it's disgusting that microsoft have let down all of us that have kept them knowing about the issues when using windows 10 mobile insider builds they strung us along for 2 years and then decide to just kill off windows 10 mobile,,bastards is the only words to describe them.
    01-28-2018 02:25 PM
  20. livejazz's Avatar
    I bought my wife and 23 year old daughter S8 actives for Christmas because they couldn't deal with the app gap and both are very water-active. That left me with my 950 XL, a 950, an LG, and a busted HP. All, to me, are amazing phones.

    I doubt, very seriously, I will run through all of those before this version of the operating system goes away. That said, I love the operating system for business and that is what is has evolved in to.

    I will likely be using Windows Mobile and these phones until the bitter end because, to me, there's absolutely no reason to change. Maybe because my phone system doesn't provide an app for an extension on Windows Mobile, but I'm considering carrying an S6 just for that purpose.

    So, that's it! The straight shooting practical approach. Maybe a little about money, but not really necessary. I just don't see a reason to throw $2,400 worth of really good phones away!!
    01-29-2018 09:55 AM
  21. afkaboogieman's Avatar
    So speaking as one of the most dedicated WP fanboys ever, my answer is No, nothing, never.

    I loved Windows Phone, bought into the MS ecosystem. Used their apps and services. Loved it. Didn't think I was missing out on iOS or Android, had no desire to switch.

    And then Microsoft let the platform suffer death by a thousand cuts. Slowly killing off apps, functions, and services. Letting years pass between the release of flagship phones. Failing to maintain the few appdev relationships that did exist. Releasing the best versions of their own apps on other platforms. Hell they bought LinkedIn and then KILLED OFF THE WP APP.

    For me the trust is gone. Why should I buy a Microsoft mobile device and get vested in an ecosystem? Microsoft has simply a horrible track record of maintaining support for their platforms. Why would a new WP device / OS be any different? For my money, I want experiences and support to improve - not degrade - over time.

    It was a sad day for me when I broke down and got an Android. But the way I see it, I didn't leave Microsoft. Microsoft left me.
    01-29-2018 09:59 AM
  22. kaktus1389's Avatar
    While I used to be a very passionate MS fan and understand the views of the people who would like to see Win32 apps running on handheld devices and having W10 handsets, I must say that in my humble opinion it does not make sense to me. As already pointed out in this thread, Win32 is a very old framework and is not very touch-friendly, as Win32 apps are meant to be used with a mouse, keyboard, and a monitor so I fail to see how that could be beneficial to anyone if it ran on a phone. I also think that powerful software, such as video editing software and 3D modeling, would run poorly on an arm-based machine if we were to run it in Continuum mode.

    We also cannot just forget that Windows 10 Mobile was half-baked at its release and still is half-baked as we cannot see any significant changes MS had announced for RS1 and RS2 updates and that it's irreversible. Sure, there are issues with other OSes at launch dates too, but I highly doubt it that there were comparable issues present on any of competing mobile OSes so far. Yes, Ballmer did make some progress with WP8.1, but he was the one who was late to the party in the first place. We can't change that, we can't expect that Microsoft would invest in something that only cuts their profits. Look at Microsoft's stock value now - it's not high because Nadella would be doing a fantastic job, just because he cut loose stuff that made them losses, despite its importance. That's just how business works and as they don't care about consumers (and most importantly, don't have many consumers using W10M at all) they're free to do as they please. That's not me saying I support their philosophy or anything, it's just what's really going on over there and it does make sense to me. Apple can afford to support their consumers as their profit off of iPhone sales is gigantic and they have quite big user-base they cannot even afford to dump them if they were to be in the same position as Microsoft is in right now.

    Bottom line - WP is not coming back in any form, I doubt there will be any Andromeda devices coming out at all and iOS and Android are the only viable options right now imho.
    Elky64 likes this.
    01-29-2018 10:10 AM
  23. jrealtor1's Avatar
    I find it very interesting that this is still a question being asked when this site and many others trumpet "Windows Mobile is Dead" and "Come on people move on, W10 Mobile is done". Not really sure of the motivation behind this question, here but since your asking, heres my take.

    "Can Microsoft still resurrect Windows 10 Mobile?"

    Let me start by answering a question with a question...Can a company that can afford to write off of over 7 billion dollars for the Nokia purchase afford to do this and still not go under? Heres another one...Can a company spend millions of dollars developing devices that never come to market or get cancelled over and over again afford to keep doing this and still stay in business? The answer is of course Yes! Microsoft has the resources and capability to resurrect anything they please...and if the resurrection is a flop...quess what, write it off! Companies that are in the same league as MS go through development cycles like this all the time and they have plenty of resources to do so, and they ways to write it off so that it doesnt completely decimate their bottom line.

    The short is Yes without a doubt!!!...and it really doesnt matter to them, from our end, if it fails or not. We dont matter. Now, the stock holders and board members, they do matter to MS, so this question really should be pointed to them :)

    Just my take...for what its worth...
    fatclue_98 likes this.
    01-29-2018 10:22 AM
  24. Vincent McLaughlin's Avatar
    I agree that it's never too late. However, what is MS and Satya willing to do to make it work? Their broken promises and unclear direction with Windows 10 Mobile in the past, has left many OEMs and average consumers not willing to trust or invest in that area.

    Microsoft will have to first, build a compelling Arm mobile phone device that not only runs Windows 10 Mobile, it will also have to be upgradable to whatever version of Andromeda MS releases, with a garunteed 5 year update support. Why five? If it runs ARM and will be able to do most of what a desktop or laptop can do, people may treat it as such, when it comes to how often they decide to upgrade. I believe this would also help to build trust, because of the commitment.

    Microsoft will also have to be willing to eat a lot of crow pie for at least two years, before seeing any real benefit to resurrecting Windows 10 Mobile. We are talking adding new features, convince developers to continue to develop for Windows 10 UWP apps that make sense on both mobile and PC. They will have to focus on greatly improving Cortana, if they hope to make her a viable AI assistant. I've mentioned before how well it works over Bluetooth and still works much better than the options currently available, in some ways.

    Windows 10Mobile is a great OS, and the recent update keeps it running well on my 950 XL, even though I now use the Galaxy Note 8 as my daily driver.

    With all of that said, this is something MS will have had to be working on still and just re-release the damn thing, with a huge surprise press event. This requires a lot of resources I'm not sure MS is willing to expend to make Windows 10 Mobile return from the dead like Superman, ready to be presented to the world and ready to give a beat down.
    01-29-2018 10:25 AM
  25. mohmia's Avatar
    I reluctantly switched to android about a year ago. I still miss a few features and functionalities of win 10. I'd consider a stable os from ms that has an android bridge that allows me to run all Android apps. Or ms could start with putting out free os builds for public that can run on most Android devices with ability to run all Android apps. But I'm not buying another ms device in the near future. My 950 xl was a dead weight in less than a year after I paid more than $700 for it.
    01-29-2018 10:30 AM
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