Could Microsoft revive windows phone?

[anon(50597)]

Nokia was a huge corporation that sold phones into all large markets except in the U.S. (at least they didn't actively themselves participate in the U.S. market and their market share in the U.S. was negligible). I think that counts as an example of such a company, does it not? Nokia was around for a very long time. Blackberry jumped in the gap and became North America's "Nokia" essentially, but Blackberry had very few places it was even marginally relevant outside of North America.

Companies can do just fine without selling to the U.S. market. Many do.

.

I’m certainly not saying smartphone makers need to sell exclusively to the U.S. My point is you can’t just sell in a few countries and survive unless you find a niche which creates a profit.
I’m also speaking about now. While Nokia was a huge producer of phones, both they and BlackBerry failed in the modern market and now sell Android phones. Neither was able to compete with Apple and Google.
I wish there was another choice, for nothing more than variety, but this dream that MS could have continued producing smartphones if only they had done this or that is a fable. It’s easy to play armchair quarterback on the Internet, but It’s not as easy as we make it out to be.

 

[nate0]

but this dream that MS could have continued producing smartphones if only they had done this or that is a fable. It’s easy to play armchair quarterback on the Internet, but It’s not as easy as we make it out to be.

It's ok to dream ain't it? Even if that is all it becomes or is, is a dream. Nobody's right nor wrong in that case. Or does it really matter who is right or wrong? That's all this thread seems to be about anyway...coulda woulda shouldas.

 

[a5cent]

I’m certainly not saying smartphone makers need to sell exclusively to the U.S. My point is you can’t just sell in a few countries and survive unless you find a niche which creates a profit.
I’m also speaking about now. While Nokia was a huge producer of phones, both they and BlackBerry failed in the modern market and now sell Android phones. Neither was able to compete with Apple and Google.
I wish there was another choice, for nothing more than variety, but this dream that MS could have continued producing smartphones if only they had done this or that is a fable. It’s easy to play armchair quarterback on the Internet, but It’s not as easy as we make it out to be.

Maybe the term "smartphone maker" is what's confusing us?

IMHO MS and Google aren't smartphone makers. They are ecosystem and platform developers. For both, mind-share in the U.S. software market is absolutely essential.

Apple is a smartphone maker but also an ecosystem and platform developer, so the same applies to them.

A company like Xiaomi is a smartphone maker, just like Huawei. Both became huge while focused on a single country. They didn't even need access to "a few" countries to become large and sustainable corporations. A single country was enough, China. For smartphone makers, a few countries are more than enough to be profitable, provided it's the right ones.

Maybe not making the distinction between "smartphone maker" and "platform developer" is also part of the disagreement between you and amits?

 

[amits1024]

Nokia was a huge corporation that sold phones into all large markets except in the U.S. (at least they didn't actively themselves participate in the U.S. market and their market share in the U.S. was negligible). I think that counts as an example of such a company, does it not? Nokia was around for a very long time. Blackberry jumped in the gap and became North America's "Nokia" essentially, but Blackberry had very few places it was even marginally relevant outside of North America.

Companies can do just fine without selling to the U.S. market. Many do.

The U.S. is not a must-have market to sell into. The U.S. is a must-have market for software services however. For most companies this is irrelevant, but if you're Apple, Microsoft or Google, then it does matter. If your lofty goal is to create a computing ecosystem (rather than "just" hardware or software that participates in an existing ecosystem), you can either focus on China (a country that is a fully viable market all on its own), or you need mind-share in the U.S. Without U.S. developers, it's very unlikely you'll ever create an ecosystem that is successful in the western world.

Yes. And Windows phones were made popular by Nokia in 2011-2013 through the Nokia Lumia series. There was a time around 2012-2013 when the flagship Nokia Lumias used to be compared to I Phones & Samsung Galaxies and the Lumias used to beat them. The Nokia Lumia 1020 has a 41 megapixel camera and even after 5 years, no phone has come close to that

With Nokia being almost non-existant in USA, Windows phone even in their best days never became popular in USA. Nokia was popular in Europe and India, so Windows phones also became popular in Europe and India. When Microsoft took over Nokia, they were able to sell phones in Europe and India mainly and as Nokia was never popular in USA, so Microsoft were not able to sell much phones in USA

The main reason for Windows phone being killed by Microsoft was turning a blind eye to the markets which needed it and forcing it to the market which didn't need it. Here Europe & India were the ones who loved Windows Phones and who needed Windows Phones. USA never had the need of Windows Phones and just because Windows Phones flopped in USA, people in Europe & India also had to suffer for something they never did

If we see the stats, in some years in some European countries, Windows phones had a market share of over 15% and in India, Windows OS was 2nd biggest in Mobile and even beat IOS in it's peak time. Only in USA Windows Phones didn't make a mark and Microsoft made their fans, mostly non-Americans suffer due to that

 

[amits1024]

Also when Microsoft released the Anniversary update in 2016 and Creators update in 2017 for Windows phones with lots of new features, why didn't Microsoft release any new phones with those updates. Lack of phones was also 1 of the main reasons for Windows OS dying

The OS kept getting better and better till 2017 and the number of phones kept getting lesser and lesser and slowly people were turned off

If Microsoft had released 1 good phone with each of Anniversary update & Creators update (The phones also having Continuum as well), Windows phone would have been very much alive today. Some OEMs would have also joined in and Microsoft might have even released a budget Windows phone too sometime in 2017. The Fall creators update in 2017 would have brought a new phone and another would have come with the 2018 update

 

[anon(50597)]

It's ok to dream ain't it? Even if that is all it becomes or is, is a dream. Nobody's right nor wrong in that case. Or does it really matter who is right or wrong? That's all this thread seems to be about anyway...coulda woulda shouldas.

That’s my point. Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Anyone can say that, not so easy to pull it off.
None of us will ever know and if it makes people happy to make things up, why not. I deal with facts which makes me a boring SOB! Maybe I should dream more.

 

[fatclue_98]

Also when Microsoft released the Anniversary update in 2016 and Creators update in 2017 for Windows phones with lots of new features, why didn't Microsoft release any new phones with those updates. Lack of phones was also 1 of the main reasons for Windows OS dying

The OS kept getting better and better till 2017 and the number of phones kept getting lesser and lesser and slowly people were turned off

If Microsoft had released 1 good phone with each of Anniversary update & Creators update (The phones also having Continuum as well), Windows phone would have been very much alive today. Some OEMs would have also joined in and Microsoft might have even released a budget Windows phone too sometime in 2017. The Fall creators update in 2017 would have brought a new phone and another would have come with the 2018 update

As much as we would all have loved for that to happen, it still boils down to the app gap. The OS was getting better but apps were leaving the Store in droves. How exactly would new phones with the Fall Creator Update attract users away from Android or iOS?

 

[a5cent]

If we see the stats, in some years in some European countries, Windows phones had a market share of over 15% and in India, Windows OS was 2nd biggest in Mobile and even beat IOS in it's peak time. Only in USA Windows Phones didn't make a mark and Microsoft made their fans, mostly non-Americans suffer due to that

I think what you are saying reflects exactly the misunderstanding I pointed out earlier. You're blaming MS for world wide "suffering" due to failing "only" in the U.S. You seem to think this is unfair or crazy.

However, like I said, the U.S. is where most app innovation occurs. MS can't maintain a viable ecosystem without their platform going mainstream in the U.S.! It didn't. How much marketshare WP had in India or Europe simply doesn't matter at that point, because selling hardware is only a means to an end. The platform and the ecosystem are what are actually important.

In that light, MS bailing out despite having some market share outside the U.S. isn't crazy at all! What actually is crazy is that MS failed so miserably in their home market.

 

[amits1024]

As much as we would all have loved for that to happen, it still boils down to the app gap. The OS was getting better but apps were leaving the Store in droves. How exactly would new phones with the Fall Creator Update attract users away from Android or iOS?

The apps were leaving the store because Microsoft wasn't releasing new phones. What was the point of releasing Anniversary update (2016) & Creators update (2017) with new features when no new phones were released with those updates. Had both updates been accompanied with 1 phone each, Windows phone would have slowly & steadily grown with a improved OS in 2017 rather than dying

 

[amits1024]

I think what you are saying reflects exactly the misunderstanding I pointed out earlier. You're blaming MS for world wide "suffering" due to failing "only" in the U.S. You seem to think this is unfair or crazy.

However, like I said, the U.S. is where most app innovation occurs. MS can't maintain a viable ecosystem without their platform going mainstream in the U.S.! It didn't. How much marketshare WP had in India or Europe simply doesn't matter at that point, because selling hardware is only a means to an end. The platform and the ecosystem are what are actually important.

In that light, MS bailing out despite having some market share outside the U.S. isn't crazy at all! What actually is crazy is that MS failed so miserably in their home market.

It is unfair. Remember Nokia even in it's prime wasn't succesful in USA, but over the world they were the biggest phone brand. When Windows phone came and Nokia came out with Nokia Lumia, in the countries where Nokia was popular, Windows phone also became popular, but in USA as Nokia wasn't popular, so Windows phone couldn't be popular too

And USA isn't the only country in the world. Lot of innovations happen in Europe, India & China too. Microsoft made the rest of the world suffer for something which they didn't do

Microsoft should have forgotten USA for Windows phones and pushed it in Europe & India where the demand for Windows phones was there rather than force it on USA where no one needed them

And sadly due to this, people who want to buy phones for less than $300 have no other option apart from lag-droid with it's pathetic battery life & frequent hangs And Microsoft's USA-centrism is to blame for this

And nothing crazy in Microsoft failing in their home market. Windows phones were synonymous to Nokia and when Nokia in their prime couldn't be succesful in USA, Microsoft should have realised earlier that Windows phone wasn't going to be succesful in USA, but they could have had Windows phone make it big in Europe & Asia, something which they never even tried

 

[anon(50597)]

The apps were leaving the store because Microsoft wasn't releasing new phones. What was the point of releasing Anniversary update (2016) & Creators update (2017) with new features when no new phones were released with those updates. Had both updates been accompanied with 1 phone each, Windows phone would have slowly & steadily grown with a improved OS in 2017 rather than dying

We don’t know that for sure. There are many things needed for an OS to grow, including apps. It’s a catch 22: you need apps to draw people and you need people to draw apps. Like I tell BlackBerry diehards, I think it was all timing. iOS and Google hit at the right time and I don’t think much be could be done by anyone else to stop it. Until something drastically new comes along, we have our market.

 

[a5cent]

Microsoft should have forgotten USA for Windows phones and pushed it in Europe & India where the demand for Windows phones was there rather than force it on USA where no one needed them

And USA isn't the only country in the world. Lot of innovations happen in Europe, India & China too. Microsoft made the rest of the world suffer for something which they didn't do

Yes. There is a lot of innovation outside the U.S. For example, most hardware components in the iPhone were neither designed nor built in the U.S. That just has absolutely nothing to do with the problem MS had.

As innovative as some other economies are, MS, Google and Apple are platform developers, and to be successful themselves, they are dependent on a SPECIFIC KIND of innovation. Most of that does occur in the U.S. I already explained this, so if you can address what I said and explain why you disagree with it, then I'll be glad to discuss it further. However, if you're just going to restate your previous position while ignoring all the points that have been made against it, there is no point to discussing it further.

 

[fatclue_98]

The apps were leaving the store because Microsoft wasn't releasing new phones.

Many of the apps that left the Store is because they were abandonware that hadn't been updated since before 8.1 and needed to be updated for use on W10M. The Idol 4S and the HP x3 were released with the Anniversary Update so your statement holds no water. I think you meant to say that no Lumias were released to accompany the AU.

 

[amits1024]

Many of the apps that left the Store is because they were abandonware that hadn't been updated since before 8.1 and needed to be updated for use on W10M. The Idol 4S and the HP x3 were released with the Anniversary Update so your statement holds no water. I think you meant to say that no Lumias were released to accompany the AU.

Yes I was talking of Lumias. And no phone was released by Microsoft or any other OEM with the Creators update in 2017

If Microsoft had released just 1 Lumia with Continuum with each of Anniversary update & Creators update, Windows phones would have been very much alive today

 

[anon(50597)]

Yes I was talking of Lumias. And no phone was released by Microsoft or any other OEM with the Creators update in 2017

If Microsoft had released just 1 Lumia with Continuum with each of Anniversary update & Creators update, Windows phones would have been very much alive today

That’s your opinion, not fact.

 

[fatclue_98]

Yes I was talking of Lumias. And no phone was released by Microsoft or any other OEM with the Creators update in 2017

If Microsoft had released just 1 Lumia with Continuum with each of Anniversary update & Creators update, Windows phones would have been very much alive today

For someone who touted markets outside the US as being essential to W10M's survival it's interesting that you failed to mention that there WAS a Windows phone released in 2017 - the Wileyfox Pro. Face it, you're a Lumia fan and not much else matters when it comes to Windows.

 

[J Dubbs]

In my experience with Windows mobile, through 8, 8.1, and 10, I found the os buggier by far than the Android competition. Honestly I couldn't wait to get back to Android. You can get some seriously good Android devices for some very good prices........ I think WP failed because they got beat in the marketplace plain and simple.

Having live tiles, which is what most folks seem to like about WP (including me) isn't on it's own enough to make a market beating phone. WP wasn't good enough to survive so it didn't.

I am very curious to see what they bring out next though..... and am willing to give it a try if it looks to have potential ;-)