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05-21-2018 07:49 PM
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  1. Duffman77's Avatar
    How hard would it be for Microsoft to change its mind on windows phone and not kill it off? And i mean 'phone' in the truest sense of the word, not a device with telephony capabilities. Is there a reason why they couldn't revive it?
    Whodaboss and BeachBomb like this.
    01-21-2018 08:54 AM
  2. justjun555's Avatar
    old Windows phone os is dead and will be replaced by next "windows for phones os".
    what remain to seen is that how many windowsphone features Microsoft retains in a new os and how new os adapts to mobile formfactor.
    and about that device with telephony(foldable phone) Microsoft doesn't want to make another me too smartphones instead they want to create new category of devices.
    There will be normal phones running on Microsoft's new os for phones but it may not be made by Microsoft.
    Charis Ntouroutlis likes this.
    01-21-2018 09:53 AM
  3. xandros9's Avatar
    I mean technically it is possible in the same way Apple can probably go build another iPhone 4-sized device but the question is whether they want to.

    At this point, not only would they have to cajole developers to create apps (which already wasn't particularly successful) but they would have to convince manufacturers that those who make phones won't be left out to dry again, and convince users that they won't be abandoned a fourth time and left behind by the time the tide goes out again. So even if everyone got onboard, it'll be a tough uphill battle.
    01-21-2018 10:15 AM
  4. etphoto's Avatar
    Nothing would shock me about Microsoft but I think the chances of they saying, oh sorry, we are making another phone are pretty slime. You probably got a better chance at winning the lottery three weeks in a row.
    01-21-2018 02:10 PM
  5. Dono Newcomb's Avatar
    I don't think they are killing it off in the way people are assuming. It's more likely that they have taken the mobile platform to its limits and at this point need a more capable framework to move forward. I mean it all depends on the way people are defining a phone and the difference between what they personally define as a phone versus something else. In my mind, anything that can make a phone call is a phone, lol.
    01-21-2018 02:42 PM
  6. etphoto's Avatar
    I don't think they are killing it off in the way people are assuming. It's more likely that they have taken the mobile platform to its limits and at this point need a more capable framework to move forward. I mean it all depends on the way people are defining a phone and the difference between what they personally define as a phone versus something else. In my mind, anything that can make a phone call is a phone, lol.
    You are correct and I was thinking more in the lines of Windows 10m than phone. Yes, there will be a new phone, just won't have W10M in it
    01-21-2018 04:03 PM
  7. Elky64's Avatar
    Wouldn't be hard for MSFT to change their minds at all, god knows they've done it enough times already. The tough part would be convincing most they are now actually serious - the past is gonna be haunting. And contrary to what many think or are hoping for I personally don't believe MSFT has any intentions of re-entering the "phone" space (whatever their idea of that is now) anytime soon if at all.
    a5cent likes this.
    01-22-2018 02:04 AM
  8. Duffman77's Avatar
    Thanks for the replies guys, with regards to any new 'Windows for phones OS', do you think it will be possible to run on current devices like a Lumia 950? Probably wishful thinking on my part, I just wish Microsoft soft had continued to develop Windows Phone. My Lumia 920 is probably my favourite phone I've ever had, so smooth.
    01-22-2018 03:49 AM
  9. anon(7929613)'s Avatar
    The only thing that makes no sense is they invested so much time and effort in developing a mobile platform and when it was actually beginning to become a full fledged OS in the form of W10M, they killed it.

    1. W10M today has all the features unlike WP8.1 and works fluently unlike initial 2015 builds.

    2. It's file system is probably the best.

    3. It's security and integration with Windows 10 for PC it's also among the best.

    4. It supports OTG and WiFi direct.

    KILLING IT AT NOW IS LIKE WITHDRAWING FROM THE RACE JUST BEFORE THE FINISH LINE.

    This can only be possible if they have found a better alternative due to which it made no sense to further continue the development of W10M. The new alternative will use all the developments and features of W10M. That can be the only explanation.
    Last edited by Satish Singh; 01-22-2018 at 05:06 AM.
    01-22-2018 04:56 AM
  10. a5cent's Avatar
    I don't think they are killing it off in the way people are assuming. It's more likely that they have taken the mobile platform to its limits and at this point need a more capable framework to move forward. I mean it all depends on the way people are defining a phone and the difference between what they personally define as a phone versus something else. In my mind, anything that can make a phone call is a phone, lol.
    The platform that MS relies on for their mobile efforts is called the UWP. I doubt anybody could name something that the UWP should be able to do but couldn't at least potentially achieve, i.e. MS have in no way taken the UWP to its technical limits. It's certainly not standing in its own way like Win32 is, where almost any attempt to fundamentally modernize it would break compatibility with existing software.

    MS doesn't provide a framework for the UWP at all. It's just an API and a runtime, so I'm not sure what "needing a more capable framework (which doesn't exist) to move forward" means.

    Where I agree with you is that nothing software related (with the exception of the W10M brand name), is being killed off. The UWP is just continuing to evolve as it always has. Everything that made up W10M still exists as a subset of W10. It will eventually be re-released, with a new name and a fresh layer of paint (CShell), but at its core it will still be W10M.
    Last edited by a5cent; 01-22-2018 at 07:45 AM.
    01-22-2018 07:15 AM
  11. a5cent's Avatar
    The only thing that makes no sense is they invested so much time and effort in developing a mobile platform and when it was actually beginning to become a full fledged OS in the form of W10M, they killed it.

    KILLING IT AT NOW IS LIKE WITHDRAWING FROM THE RACE JUST BEFORE THE FINISH LINE.
    This sums up the misunderstandings that are widespread in the small/remaining MS mobile community.

    It won't ever make sense to you, because your understanding is flawed.

    MS didn't spend so much time building a mobile platform. They spent it building a modern and secure consumerized OS that can run on almost any form factor. It shares it's low level foundation and kernel with Win32, but is otherwise independent of it. MS hopes this will one day replace Win32 (like Win32 replaced DOS).

    When this OS was installed on a phone without Win32, we called it W10M. Whenever you download a real UWP app (not bridged with Centennial) from the MS Store onto your computer, you're still using this exact same OS! It's not been killed.

    MS just stopped building phones. Understandably many people have difficulty separating the hardware from the software. As a result, in many people's minds, killing phone production is the same as killing W10M, but that's simply wrong.

    Once you grasp this, MS' decisions start to make at least some sense (although we can still find them stupid decisions). At the very least, you'll understand that they aren't scraping ANY of their previous mobile related development efforts. None. That's not been thrown away.

    What they did throw away was their their ability to compete in the smartphone market.
    01-22-2018 07:43 AM
  12. a5cent's Avatar
    Thanks for the replies guys, with regards to any new 'Windows for phones OS', do you think it will be possible to run on current devices like a Lumia 950?
    Technically possible? Absolutely!

    Will MS invest the millions necessary to develop, test and support that capability? Never! Not happening.

    The last real break, where updating devices was not feasible (still technically possible but economically outrageous), was during the transition from WM6.5 to WP7.

    Since then every new OS would have been capable of running on existing hardware. Even WP8 could have run on WP7 devices, which MS claimed was impossible, but people on XDA eventually got it running, even without MS' help.
    Last edited by a5cent; 01-22-2018 at 11:26 AM. Reason: spelling
    01-22-2018 07:56 AM
  13. Dono Newcomb's Avatar
    The platform that MS relies on for their mobile efforts is called the UWP. I doubt anybody could name something that the UWP should be able to do but couldn't at least potentially achieve, i.e. MS have in no way taken the UWP to its technical limits. It's certainly not standing in its own way like Win32 is, where almost any attempt to fundamentally modernize it would break compatibility with existing software.

    MS doesn't provide a framework for the UWP at all. It's just an API and a runtime, so I'm not sure what "needing a more capable framework (which doesn't exist) to move forward" means.

    Where I agree with you is that nothing software related (with the exception of the W10M brand name), is being killed off. The UWP is just continuing to evolve as it always has. Everything that made up W10M still exists as a subset of W10. It will eventually be re-released, with a new name and a fresh layer of paint (CShell), but at its core it will still be W10M.
    Okay I used a specific term for a broad meaning. Framework was a poor choice of words, lol. I have been repeatedly told that w10m was incapable of doing what users want the way a desktop can because w10m has limitations. So I am imagining then that if truly it is those limitations that are holding back the OS from becoming what is needed they would have to create a clever way of keeping their hard work intact while addressing the issue. Unless I am totally off base here, which is possible I like many others are simply building our knowledge as we go. :)
    01-22-2018 09:04 AM
  14. fatclue_98's Avatar
    What they did throw away was their their ability to compete in the smartphone market
    I wouldn't quite go that far. They've managed to make their products and services available to every mobile OS on the planet. Office products and launchers are consistently at the top of the charts on the Play Store and Office products on the Apple App Store. They're making their coin thanks to the mobile experiment. Were we suckered into being Guinea Pigs for their grand experiment? Perhaps, but we got a sweet OS in the process.
    01-22-2018 09:31 AM
  15. EDANG12345678's Avatar
    The only reason the Windows Phone don't get as much consumers like Androids or Apple mind due to the PAYMENT METHOD doesn't looks like GOOGLE PLAY STORE with few types of variety,it's can make the payments through the networks even without the Visa or Master Card,and the others reason is lack of apps and games.If the phone can make it like Androids,it mind attract more consumer.Because the other Product From Microsoft like X box or PC software already very mature,it's just need Gaming Console , Keyboard or New Microsoft Product compatibility with the Windows Products.by the way,privacy are one of the issue too,my phone flashlights and camera not working issues haven't solve.Windows is the systems,shouldn't involving with Brands.Hope Microsoft can make it become popular again.
    01-22-2018 09:39 AM
  16. PAC757's Avatar
    They probably could, but they would also probably, once again, turn it into a disaster
    sniperboywc and rogerhew like this.
    01-22-2018 11:04 AM
  17. Krystianpants's Avatar
    For sure. If someone at the company goes "I got a great idea to lose lots of money and have our stocks plummet".
    sniperboywc likes this.
    01-22-2018 11:06 AM
  18. a5cent's Avatar
    I wouldn't quite go that far. They've managed to make their products and services available to every mobile OS on the planet. Office products and launchers are consistently at the top of the charts on the Play Store and Office products on the Apple App Store. They're making their coin thanks to the mobile experiment. Were we suckered into being Guinea Pigs for their grand experiment? Perhaps, but we got a sweet OS in the process.
    Yeah, I think we're on the same page.

    MS certainly has a lot of apps on iOS and Android, but they are primarily portals to services whose main value propositions stem from outside the smartphone space.

    I used the term "smartphone market" to refer strictly to hardware. Without that, MS' is no longer able to drive hardware innovation in ways that would particularly benefit them, nor can they escape the risk that comes with having to rely on their competitors to reach their customers when they are "on the go".

    Those are the things MS gave up on, and those problems will remain no matter how many apps MS has on Android and iOS.
    01-22-2018 11:24 AM
  19. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Yeah, I think we're on the same page.

    MS certainly has a lot of apps on iOS and Android, but they are primarily portals to services whose main value propositions stem from outside the smartphone space.

    I used the term "smartphone market" to refer strictly to hardware. Without that, MS' is no longer able to drive hardware innovation in ways that would particularly benefit them, nor can they escape the risk that comes with having to rely on their competitors to reach their customers when they are "on the go".

    Those are the things MS gave up on, and those problems will remain no matter how many apps MS has on Android and iOS.
    Continuum was a proof of concept. What new products and/or services does Microsoft have to offer? Why go through the expense of releasing hardware if there's no new gimmick to put on the testbench? Telephony on a UMPC is next, followed by some type of Hololens contraption. They'll gauge consumer interest then axe the project as they've done in the past.

    It just kills me that they release some really cool feature for working stiffs like me only to pimp it out to iOS and Android. They should name their next mobile device the Microsoft Mule because it'll end up being just another engineering showpiece.
    01-22-2018 11:36 AM
  20. a5cent's Avatar
    Okay I used a specific term for a broad meaning. Framework was a poor choice of words, lol. I have been repeatedly told that w10m was incapable of doing what users want the way a desktop can because w10m has limitations. So I am imagining then that if truly it is those limitations that are holding back the OS from becoming what is needed they would have to create a clever way of keeping their hard work intact while addressing the issue. Unless I am totally off base here, which is possible I like many others are simply building our knowledge as we go. :)
    UWP hasn't run up against a limit that it can't surpass, which MS could only overcome by building something new.

    MS is just excruciatingly conservative when it comes to expanding UWP's API surface. While this certainly causes some of the complaining we hear from developers, it's not a limit that is intrinsic to the technology itself. It's really just a result of how MS approaches software development.

    MS doesn't have to develop anything new. They just have to develop faster, and more importantly, have a better understanding of their target market, the lack of which is the main reason they really screwed up W10M.
    Last edited by a5cent; 01-22-2018 at 12:06 PM.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    01-22-2018 11:52 AM
  21. anon(7929613)'s Avatar
    This sums up the misunderstandings that are widespread in the small/remaining MS mobile community.

    It won't ever make sense to you, because your understanding is flawed.
    I think you misunderstood my point. I was trying to highlight the fact that if a company withdraws a product at such a mature stage, then there has to be something big behind the screens that prompted them to take such a step.

    You say that Microsoft wanted to make ONE OS that can run on devices of various form factor. But there were TWO OSs - W10M & W10. They are similar, yet W10M has some limitations when compared to W10. So there has to be a last step that will unify the two and perhaps Microsoft found a way in the form of One core.

    Still that doesn't explain the way Microsoft is killing apps and features associated with the mobile platform if they are going to make an OS that can run on devices of different form factor including mobiles.

    This is what I highlighted in this thread: https://forums.windowscentral.com/ge...ty-2016-a.html
    01-22-2018 01:30 PM
  22. a5cent's Avatar
    You say that Microsoft wanted to make ONE OS that can run on devices of various form factor. But there were TWO OSs - W10M & W10. They are similar, yet W10M has some limitations when compared to W10. So there has to be a last step that will unify the two and perhaps Microsoft found a way in the form of One core.
    Yes. With the exception of CShell and hardware drivers, W10M is entirely contained in W10. Since being a subset is not the same as being the superset (and W10 and W10M can't run the same software), W10M and W10 are logically different OSes. Since W10M is a subset, it obviously lacks some of W10's capabilities. You're right about all that.

    Where you are mistaken is in the idea that there must come a last step to unify the two! This is exactly the misunderstanding I'm referring to. What you call "limitations", are actually deliberate omissions.

    Everything in the OS that must be unified has been unified. That last step towards OS unification already occurred. That was W10.

    MS still has some work to do in regard to replacing Win32 software with UWP software. Examples would be those parts of the control panel that are accessible only from Win32 software but also apply to UWP, or the shell (to be replaced by CShell). There are some more examples, but none of that belongs to the OS. Those are just applications like any other that run on top of the OS. Most importantly, they aren't unifying anything. They are just re-implementing some things for UWP that already exist in Win32.

    The parts of Win32 that aren't yet unified, i.e. they are not yet part of the UWP, never will be. Those parts are not intended to become one with UWP. Rather, they are destined for the trash bin.

    W10 S currently must ship with Win32. That's because most of what is in the MS Store has been brought over via Centennial, i.e. they aren't real UWP applications and therefore require Win32 to run.

    At some point, when that is no longer the case (a big IF, I know), MS will throw out 7GB worth of functionality/features and ship that as a separate Windows edition. Users who only use the MS store won't notice any difference, and the OS they use will essentially be the same thing we cal W10M today... what they use will just come with a fresh layer of paint (CShell) and have a new name.

    Anyway, the idea is to throw those 7GB of functionality out. Not to unify them.
    Last edited by a5cent; 01-24-2018 at 06:42 PM. Reason: spelling
    Laura Knotek and wpbestplayer like this.
    01-22-2018 02:46 PM
  23. anon(7929613)'s Avatar
    Yes. With the exception of CShell and hardware drivers, W10M is entirely contained in W10. .........

    Everything in the OS that must be unified has been unified. That last step towards OS unification already occurred. That was W10.
    I think you contradicted yourself. I am talking about these visual differences that arises because of different shells like the Live tiles, start screen, action and notification centre etc. These need to be unified as well.

    Check out this video where Zac explains the same point.

    Tengku Fendy likes this.
    01-22-2018 09:16 PM
  24. realwarder's Avatar
    UWP hasn't run up against a limit that it can't surpass, which MS could only overcome by building something new.

    MS is just excruciatingly conservative when it comes to expanding UWP's API surface. While this certainly causes some of the complaining we hear from developers, it's not a limit that is intrinsic to the technology itself. It's really just a result of how MS approaches software development.

    MS doesn't have to develop anything new. They just have to develop faster, and more importantly, have a better understanding of their target market, the lack of which is the main reason they really screwed up W10M.
    As someone who uses UWP and Xamarin, I want the two to merge much more tomorrow. It should be possible for UWP to universally run on an iOS, Android, MacOS. And I so wish they had added support back to Windows 7 (i.e. in a SP.) Developers would have jumped on board a lot more, but it's a massive PITA when many many (most) enterprise customers still don't support it.

    They also need to focus on tooling quality and platform stability. We're continuously jumping through hoops almost every release of dev tooling these days, ranging from compiler bugs, VS issues, framework incompatibles etc. They need to stabilize things for 6 months. I'm ok with a new insider program for VS but the main developers should get 6 month stable updates, not the current insider style updates.
    a5cent likes this.
    01-22-2018 10:59 PM
  25. techiez's Avatar
    I think you misunderstood my point. I was trying to highlight the fact that if a company withdraws a product at such a mature stage, then there has to be something big behind the screens that prompted them to take such a step.
    they simply decided to exit the consumer mobile race, as Nadella clearly said and deeply believes that consumer mobile space has "need" only for IOS and Android.
    so they will keep expanding services on these platforms.

    As for the surface phone rumors, I think it will have hybrid functionality but will be designed as per niche use cases, I dont expect this device to have full PC functionality as some others believe, it will have customized software to fulfill the usecases that MS imagines.
    01-22-2018 11:48 PM
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