11-18-2014 07:37 AM
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  1. Nogitsune Micah's Avatar
    I can argue that HTC has done what they've always done...build their phones to work good out of the box with minimal updates. It doesn't matter what platform -Android or WP - that's been their approach because, let's face it, they are strapped for cash. There are many, many good articles and threads that have discussed why HTC is where it is, so I won't flog a dead horse.
    Except it hasn't been until THIS year that HTC really has shown POTENTIAL to be good. They've released plenty of hardware over the last 3-4 years that needed major support and updates. What I find hilariously sad about HTC is that in both Windows Phone and Android, they were the dominant player in the early days. The very first Android Phone(G1) was HTC. The Original Droid had its partner the Droid Eris(HTC). HTC released the first 4G smartphone with Sprint(The EVO), The first mainstream 3D smartphone(EVO 3D). The first LTE phone in the HTC Thunderbolt.

    These were the early days before Samsung became "GALAXY". In fact, Samsung's original android phones Pre-Galaxy(The Behold, Behold 2, Moment, Transform) were criticially panned and abysmal.

    Yeah I used to be a major android fanboy lol....
    HTC worked closely with google with the G1 and the ORIGINAL nexus much like Nokia did with Microsoft and at that time, Android was not a dominant player at the time(Apple still was). So what is the difference in HTC working as close as they did with Google and Nokia doing the same thing now with Lumia and Microsoft?

    HTC's issues are simple and it is actually ironic because Nokia did the same thing....HTC released WAY TOO MANY ANDROID phones to the point where they had a variant for a Variant for a variant. They completely oversaturated the market and then they didn't properly support the devices. Phones that were still fairly new weren't getting updated to the newer android version. This is when Samsung started coming into power.

    HTC continued that same tactic in windows Phone 7 with all their windows phone devices. Then the HD7 owners had issues with the camera. The Titan owners had issues with their mics. It's now nearly 7 months later and the poor 8x owners are getting the run around about when they are getting official Windows Phone 8.1. Let's not mention the 8s Owners who went from not getting it, to getting it, to maybe.

    HTC builds great phones...Yes. I hate those speakers on the M8 but overall it is a beautiful device(I prefer Lumia design language). The problem is they don't know how to properly support their devices and that is exactly why they went from being the star of Android to being #4 or #5 and why WP owners shy away from HTC now.

    I believe that the close relationship with Nokia did hurt the other OEMs just as much as the pace at which MSFT has been updating the OS itself. I get Samsung making money hand over fist being from Android not as willing to put money initially into WP, but from their Tizen development they are smart enough to see Android cannot be their sole cash cow. MSFT just flatly moved too slow with the OS. Personally, I like HTC building one chassis that can support either Android or WP. HTC wanted to do that a mile back, but MSFT took too long to add the supports into the OS itself.
    I can't see how the deal with Nokia would hurt the other OEMs. Anyone can make a Windows Phone.....My Lumia is no different than the M8 or Ativ once you take away the Lumia camera quality and the Nokia suite of apps. They are all still uniformly the same windows phone.

    Lumias are essentially the Windows Phone version of Nexuses. So once again, why is it okay for Google to work exclusively with this OEM for this nexus and offer features and access to the OS and give them a priority over the other million Androids yet Microsoft gives Nokia priority and suddenly that is a slight against the other OEMs?

    For all the good Nokia did to WP, their biggest weakness was at least in the US market was a ****ty relationship with the carriers. We still don't have a WP like the HTC One, LG G3 or Samsung Galaxy S or Note series...a phone you can walk into each carrier and buy. The closest thing we've gotten to that is...the HTC One for Windows, as it is now on AT&T, t-mo and Verizon. While the carriers may like MSFT a little bit better than Nokia, it isn't by a whole lot either
    I can sort of agree with this. But at the same time, given the market share of WP, I'd prefer if they were going to do exclusives to just do them with ATT. ATT is WP's strongest ally in the US.

    This is not the first time, we've had a flagship WP on all carriers. HTC did technically release the 8x on all 4 carriers and even the 8s.

    And technically, Nokia has released the same phone on more than one carrier...the 925 was both a Tmobile & Att phone as well. So it's not like Nokia has never released phones on the same carrier

    and even if they were variants...the 810, 820 and 822 were all released around the same time....and the 920, 925, and 928 were flagships for 3 of the 4 carriers. It's not perfect by any means.

    And you can't even really fully count the M8 as a win...Even the M8 went as an exclusive(like every other Lumia). It eventually came to ATT/Tmobile yes...but nearly 3 months later, when the phone's hype was dying down. Which leads me to believe that it isn't a "NOKIA" problem. It's a WINDOWS PHONE problem and why exclusives, as much as we hate them, are necessary evils.
    OldMillXxX and Aresjr21 like this.
    11-12-2014 07:03 AM
  2. Nogitsune Micah's Avatar
    Obviously you don't know how to read. I did not say that.

    I said the close relationship between MS and Nokia was a turn off for other OEMs. If you took the time to read properly you would have read that.

    I'm sorry you don't get where I'm coming from. All Lumia's lack something. None of them were outstanding. Whether you want to believe that or not.

    I don't see exclusive apps as a WOW factor. Sorry.

    As for support, depends what country you live.

    So my suggestion to you, learn to read before posting inane comments. Maybe I'd take you more seriously instead of trying to belittle my points.
    So if the Lumias are not outstanding and lacking something, you should apply that to all flagship windows phones. Because there isn't much difference between Ativ, Lumia and M8 except specific things to differentiate them. HTC's speakers, Lumia's Cameras, and Samsung's.....(What are Samsung Windows phones known for?

    That's a hyperbolic statement. I don't find the Lumia 1520 nor Icon lacking much of anything. It's unfortunate the Lumia Icon lacks glance and a SD card slot but that doesn't make the phone any less than competing smartphones. The 1520 may lack stylus support of the Galaxy note, yet you can't fault the phone for that simply because the OS doesn't support it.

    I am curious to know what features hardware wise Lumias are lacking(THAT THE OS actually supports).

    If I misread anything you said, my apologies.
    Tom Snyder likes this.
    11-12-2014 07:08 AM
  3. Nogitsune Micah's Avatar
    I see you added more to your post after just simply ridiculing me.



    All mobile sales are suffering aside from those wanting the new iPhone.



    We don't know what incentive they had to dominate and being a dual OS supplier they obviously felt more attention in a OS gaining popularity was better than sticking with an OS that seemed to be stagnate. Seems liked a good business decision at the time. They still make some of the best Android handsets.
    I agree HTC makes amazing Android handsets. If I was feeling crazy enough to go back to Android, I'd own an HTC one. But that camera though...Sigh.

    Why should Samsung or any other OEM invest money into an ecosystem that is flat. If you can explain that one to me then I'll listen.
    The OS isn't flat. It's growing....slowly. But it isn't flat. I don't remember the exact numbers but whatever article WC posted, it showed a mild increase in sales.

    Flat implies there is NO growth(and no drop in sales). It is not flat.
    Using your logic, then why would Samsung bother releasing the hardware in the FIRST PLACE with no plans to properly support it. At least in HTC case with the One, it's merely flashing a different OS. Samsung actually made NEW designs(albeit similar to Galaxy) for their phones. If the OS is flat and they have no reason to invest money into it, then why use the time and money to create the phones in the first place. Then turn around and blame the OS for poor sales. Which is exactly what Samsung did with their Ativ tablets and the original ATIV in the early days of WP 8 and Windows 8.


    The push for apps should have been MS, not Nokia. Having all the apps on WP should have been the goal. Having one with exclusives does nothing for the ecosystem.

    If you were an OEM and saw MS and Nokia working that close how would you interpret that
    ?

    I agree with you. It would be better if Microsoft was getting the apps....But it wasn't. So why does it matter who got the apps? furthermore, Nokia was the one working for the apps so they deserve the exclusives. Just like if HTC pushed for the apps, they deserve them.

    People claim Lumia apps should be free for all. Why? If you want the apps, get a Lumia. I don't think HTC should release their apps or Samsung for all windows phone.

    Would it be great for the ecosystem? Of course. But Nokia isn't there to help the entire ecosystem. They are there to get people to buy their products and the exclusives are what drew people into Lumia. And besides once the exclusives ended, they went to everyone eventually.

    Again you make it sound like Microsoft was favoring Nokia over others. I see it simple...Microsoft saw that the others were half in, half out and they worked with Nokia to propel the OS further. 2013 was literally amazing for Windows phone with all the apps we got. Thanks to Lumia.

    HTC and Samsung's focus will always be Android, so in that case, what is wrong with Microsoft putting their focus on Nokia?


    No one is anti-Lumia or anti-Nokia and the reason why there's so many Lumia's is because that was Nokia's business model. Always has been and probably was the downfall of their company aside from the slow moving R&D department.
    Downfall of their company was their poor choices pre-windows phone, from what I hear.

    Look, I've been a Nokia user for years. I've been using a Lumia L920 for almost two years now. I've been on this site for almost that long. I am not against Lumia, Nokia or WP. I'm not a hater.

    I give criticism where it's due.
    Same here. I got my First Nokia phone back in November/December sometime(Lumia 810) and joined the site around then, I believe. I give criticism where it is due....At Microsoft.

    I also give Props and respect where it is due...to Nokia. Because I realize that before Nokia came into the picture, Windows Phone 7 was a hot mess that nobody seemed to care about. That hardware you called LACKING is what gets people's eyes on the OS.

    People recognize my Lumia 1020 as the phone with "THAT CAMERA" and the 1520 due to its sheer size. Again without Lumia and Nokia's power, this OS would still be as irrelevant as it was in the WP7 days.

    The way MS has gone about things has been wrong. I don't want MS repeating Nokia's mistakes. The attractiveness of WP for other OEMs simply isn't there for them to care that much. Why should they? What incentive is there?

    As for Lumia as a brand. I think it's a good starting point but I don't think it says much about WP in my opinion. Lumia means nothing. It's just a name that's made up, most outside the WP ecosystem won't identify with it. So in my eyes a new name is needed. I do expect it to go eventually.
    Lumia is a brand for me is not the starting point but the standard. Creating great hardware AND properly supporting the hardware and having signature features that make it hard for customers to not want to leave your phones.

    -Glance
    -Camera
    -Nokia Apps
    -Nokia Support
    -Unique Designs(Not using designs/names from Android and releasing them 6 months later. Basically looking like an afterthought).

    I don't see the Lumia brand going away. They'd be stupid to get rid of the Lumia brand unless they make it surface. Simply because the people WANT Lumia.
    Tom Snyder likes this.
    11-12-2014 07:29 AM
  4. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    So if the Lumias are not outstanding and lacking something, you should apply that to all flagship windows phones. Because there isn't much difference between Ativ, Lumia and M8 except specific things to differentiate them. HTC's speakers, Lumia's Cameras, and Samsung's.....(What are Samsung Windows phones known for?

    That's a hyperbolic statement. I don't find the Lumia 1520 nor Icon lacking much of anything. It's unfortunate the Lumia Icon lacks glance and a SD card slot but that doesn't make the phone any less than competing smartphones. The 1520 may lack stylus support of the Galaxy note, yet you can't fault the phone for that simply because the OS doesn't support it.
    L1520 - Having more phablet type options. Dual screen? Stylus? I have nothing against the 1520 other than it's size. It's not a phone for the masses.

    L930/Icon - Where do I start? Pathetic battery, poor screen, lacking all the options that people loved about Nokia's. Not to mention that all other flagship phones of other OS's have these features and including fingerprint scanners these days. The L930 simply does not compete against any flagships other than having a unique OS.

    Going by general feeling regarding the L930 here on the forum many L920 owners, myself included decided to avoid the L930.

    Add in the the sound on Lumias is mediocre at best, Nokia used to be better.

    As for the other OEMs, it's really their choice and incentives to decide what's best for them. It's business after all.

    I am curious to know what features hardware wise Lumias are lacking(THAT THE OS actually supports).
    Better screens, better battery, better CPU, IP67/68, fingerprint scanner for security. I'm talking flagship here not low-mid. So they actually compete hardware wise with other flaghsips. No I don't want to hear how good the OS works on low end hardware.

    If I misread anything you said, my apologies.
    Apology accepted. You did misread what I wrote.
    MSFTisMIA likes this.
    11-12-2014 07:53 AM
  5. jomarr's Avatar
    Here's how I think it would work

    Entry Level (5xx)
    Midrange (7xx or 8xx)
    Flagship (9xx)
    Phablet (15xx)
    Niche (10xx)

    They need to stop being like Samsung. While bombarding the market with lots of cheap phones gains marjet share, it would be hard for Microsoft to have THAT phone.

    Also maybe after one cycle, Microsoft should ditch the numbering and go with other names. Honestly, it's confusing for the average consumer.
    N_LaRUE and Karthik Naik like this.
    11-12-2014 08:00 AM
  6. jwinch2's Avatar
    Here's how I think it would work

    Entry Level (5xx)
    Midrange (7xx or 8xx)
    Flagship (9xx)
    Phablet (15xx)
    Niche (10xx)

    They need to stop being like Samsung. While bombarding the market with lots of cheap phones gains marjet share, it would be hard for Microsoft to have THAT phone.

    Also maybe after one cycle, Microsoft should ditch the numbering and go with other names. Honestly, it's confusing for the average consumer.
    Agreed. I think focusing in those areas would be wise. As for ditching the #'s, i'm not sure. People seem to understand iPhone 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6 well enough, same thing with Galaxy S1, etc. Could the numbering system by simplified? Probably, but there is no reason to ditch it all together that I can see.

    The big issue will be focusing on quality, not quantity, supporting the OS, and getting things out to everyone in a timely manner. When you put out a flagship, it cannot suffer from things like low memory or lack of SD (if you are going to have one, you can't have the other. For example iPhone does not have SD, but when they sell phones with 128 GB of internal memory, it doesn't really matter), lack of Qi, etc. Long story short, it needs to be a true flagship.

    In addition, if MS is going to use the Lumia line as their Nexus or Surface for phones, then they need to really push the envelope with it, which will A) get people excited about the product and B) force other OEM's to innovate and push the envelope themselves. In addition, making sure the OS is not lacking anything (lack of stylus support for a phablet comes to mind) in future iterations will be crucial. Its also a place where they can push updates immediately rather than having to wait on the OEM to do it or even the carrier. This will force the hand of other OEM's to push updates right away as well.
    Last edited by jwinch2; 11-12-2014 at 10:30 AM.
    MSFTisMIA and N_LaRUE like this.
    11-12-2014 08:24 AM
  7. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    I agree HTC makes amazing Android handsets. If I was feeling crazy enough to go back to Android, I'd own an HTC one. But that camera though...Sigh.

    The OS isn't flat. It's growing....slowly. But it isn't flat. I don't remember the exact numbers but whatever article WC posted, it showed a mild increase in sales.

    Flat implies there is NO growth(and no drop in sales). It is not flat.
    If you look at graphs of world wide growth of WP it looks pretty flat in general. I wouldn't call it mild growth, I'd call it low growth.

    Using your logic, then why would Samsung bother releasing the hardware in the FIRST PLACE with no plans to properly support it. At least in HTC case with the One, it's merely flashing a different OS. Samsung actually made NEW designs(albeit similar to Galaxy) for their phones. If the OS is flat and they have no reason to invest money into it, then why use the time and money to create the phones in the first place. Then turn around and blame the OS for poor sales. Which is exactly what Samsung did with their Ativ tablets and the original ATIV in the early days of WP 8 and Windows 8.
    You don't seem to know much about business do you? It's called testing the waters. That's why HTC and Samsung don't push a multitude of phones out.

    ?

    I agree with you. It would be better if Microsoft was getting the apps....But it wasn't. So why does it matter who got the apps? furthermore, Nokia was the one working for the apps so they deserve the exclusives. Just like if HTC pushed for the apps, they deserve them.

    People claim Lumia apps should be free for all. Why? If you want the apps, get a Lumia. I don't think HTC should release their apps or Samsung for all windows phone.

    Would it be great for the ecosystem? Of course. But Nokia isn't there to help the entire ecosystem. They are there to get people to buy their products and the exclusives are what drew people into Lumia. And besides once the exclusives ended, they went to everyone eventually.

    Again you make it sound like Microsoft was favoring Nokia over others. I see it simple...Microsoft saw that the others were half in, half out and they worked with Nokia to propel the OS further. 2013 was literally amazing for Windows phone with all the apps we got. Thanks to Lumia.
    Nokia was getting funds from MS before the takeover. That's where the idea is wrong. I never said having free apps or not allowing OEMs not to have their own app range was wrong. I have nothing against that. I do however have issues with stalling the growth of an ecosystem by privileging one OEM over another and not providing mainstream apps for all WPs.

    Whether the other OEMs were in or out they should have made it a level playing field when it came to mainstream Store apps for all WPs. Main reason why people took up Nokia was because they made low end hardware and they had the apps. You can call that a victory for Nokia but a loss for WP.

    HTC and Samsung's focus will always be Android, so in that case, what is wrong with Microsoft putting their focus on Nokia?
    Well for MS it made sense because Nokia put all their eggs in one basket and had 'faith' in WP OS. So yeah you can see why MS would care more but that shows favouritism and many companies will take a dim view.

    People recognize my Lumia 1020 as the phone with "THAT CAMERA" and the 1520 due to its sheer size. Again without Lumia and Nokia's power, this OS would still be as irrelevant as it was in the WP7 days.
    Yeah 1020 is 'that camera' until someone wants a quick snap and can't do it. The 1520 is that 'big phone' until they realise it has no phablet features.

    Lumia is a brand for me is not the starting point but the standard. Creating great hardware AND properly supporting the hardware and having signature features that make it hard for customers to not want to leave your phones.

    -Glance
    -Camera
    -Nokia Apps
    -Nokia Support
    -Unique Designs(Not using designs/names from Android and releasing them 6 months later. Basically looking like an afterthought).

    I don't see the Lumia brand going away. They'd be stupid to get rid of the Lumia brand unless they make it surface. Simply because the people WANT Lumia.
    You want a Lumia. People who are WP fans want a Lumia but who in in the US really cares? Since MS's focus is in the US (very obvious) why stick with a foreign sounding name? That's my point. Name only matters when there's something attached to it. At this stage, the rest of the world outside the US knows Lumia and is a brand to a point but I doubt many would really care what MS calls their phones.

    Nokia no longer makes phones. Their apps are now MS. Their remaining apps are no longer WP exclusives.

    Arguing over Nokia and Lumia is pointless now. MS is bringing out phones. Lumia is the name they're using currently for transition. I don't think they'll keep it but that's my opinion. I've been through business take overs before. I know what happens.
    11-12-2014 08:24 AM
  8. MSFTisMIA's Avatar
    Except it hasn't been until THIS year that HTC really has shown POTENTIAL to be good. They've released plenty of hardware over the last 3-4 years that needed major support and updates. What I find hilariously sad about HTC is that in both Windows Phone and Android, they were the dominant player in the early days. The very first Android Phone(G1) was HTC. The Original Droid had its partner the Droid Eris(HTC). HTC released the first 4G smartphone with Sprint(The EVO), The first mainstream 3D smartphone(EVO 3D). The first LTE phone in the HTC Thunderbolt.

    These were the early days before Samsung became "GALAXY". In fact, Samsung's original android phones Pre-Galaxy(The Behold, Behold 2, Moment, Transform) were criticially panned and abysmal.

    Yeah I used to be a major android fanboy lol....
    HTC worked closely with google with the G1 and the ORIGINAL nexus much like Nokia did with Microsoft and at that time, Android was not a dominant player at the time(Apple still was). So what is the difference in HTC working as close as they did with Google and Nokia doing the same thing now with Lumia and Microsoft?

    HTC's issues are simple and it is actually ironic because Nokia did the same thing....HTC released WAY TOO MANY ANDROID phones to the point where they had a variant for a Variant for a variant. They completely oversaturated the market and then they didn't properly support the devices. Phones that were still fairly new weren't getting updated to the newer android version. This is when Samsung started coming into power.

    HTC continued that same tactic in windows Phone 7 with all their windows phone devices. Then the HD7 owners had issues with the camera. The Titan owners had issues with their mics. It's now nearly 7 months later and the poor 8x owners are getting the run around about when they are getting official Windows Phone 8.1. Let's not mention the 8s Owners who went from not getting it, to getting it, to maybe.

    HTC builds great phones...Yes. I hate those speakers on the M8 but overall it is a beautiful device(I prefer Lumia design language). The problem is they don't know how to properly support their devices and that is exactly why they went from being the star of Android to being #4 or #5 and why WP owners shy away from HTC now.



    I can't see how the deal with Nokia would hurt the other OEMs. Anyone can make a Windows Phone.....My Lumia is no different than the M8 or Ativ once you take away the Lumia camera quality and the Nokia suite of apps. They are all still uniformly the same windows phone.

    Lumias are essentially the Windows Phone version of Nexuses. So once again, why is it okay for Google to work exclusively with this OEM for this nexus and offer features and access to the OS and give them a priority over the other million Androids yet Microsoft gives Nokia priority and suddenly that is a slight against the other OEMs?



    I can sort of agree with this. But at the same time, given the market share of WP, I'd prefer if they were going to do exclusives to just do them with ATT. ATT is WP's strongest ally in the US.

    This is not the first time, we've had a flagship WP on all carriers. HTC did technically release the 8x on all 4 carriers and even the 8s.

    And technically, Nokia has released the same phone on more than one carrier...the 925 was both a Tmobile & Att phone as well. So it's not like Nokia has never released phones on the same carrier

    and even if they were variants...the 810, 820 and 822 were all released around the same time....and the 920, 925, and 928 were flagships for 3 of the 4 carriers. It's not perfect by any means.

    And you can't even really fully count the M8 as a win...Even the M8 went as an exclusive(like every other Lumia). It eventually came to ATT/Tmobile yes...but nearly 3 months later, when the phone's hype was dying down. Which leads me to believe that it isn't a "NOKIA" problem. It's a WINDOWS PHONE problem and why exclusives, as much as we hate them, are necessary evils.
    You lost me after you said HTC had only now just shown the potential to be that good.

    Man, HTC has been in bed with MSFT from the days HTC made phones for the carriers under carrier brandings. XDA developers started from a HTC made, carrier branded phone. So, stop. HTC has been good for years. The phone from a design perspective that said HTC arrived was the Touch Diamond. The HTC Kaiser was still the best keyboard phone made. The HD2 is the best tinkerer friendly phone ever. No one questions HTC's building chops, just their opportunity management - which Apple is a double PhD level master at.

    The trap HTC fell into was that same one that bit Moto, RIM, Nokia x 2 (Symbian and I can argue with WP now), Samsung now and Apple eventually - over saturation by quantity and quality. What made HTC's so messed up was their strength...their long standing relationship with the carriers. They did a money grab and made too many carrier variants instead of leveraging their carrier relationship to do what Samsung did faster - get the carriers to adopt one singular flagship phone. By the time they did it, they missed the boat and are floundering.

    You do realize since WP7 HTC has most of the true flagships: HD7, HTC Titan, 8X, One for Windows. Nokia had 2: 920/925, 900. 1520 is a nice and it doesn't count...so is the 1020. If you tale the US an example: the 8X was on all 4 carriers - including the 8XT for Sprint. The One is on 3 of the 4 now.
    In comparison, the 920/928/925 was how it got on 3 of the 4...Sprint didn't touch it because it went with their longer standing partners instead - Samsung, HTC. Right now the One is the first WP flagship relatively unaltered across carriers.

    Internationally, Nokia had more reach with the 920. Also, Nokia had more size and resources...they could outship HTC easily by sheer volume. In the end, MSFT helped make Lumia a little overrated. They always wanted to follow Apple's success by being an OEM too. But they couldn't start from scratch, so buying Nokia was the easiest way. Eventually, the Lumia brand will get scrapped too for those reasons - it may become toxic in the mind of consumers.

    My point is that did the Lumia brand meet the goals of MSFT and Nokia to raise the platform's visibility? Somewhat (globally - yes, US: no). MSFT didn't do itself no favors with such glacial OS development. Let's see what they can do since they've got a hardware division now.

    Posted Approved 1+1 Style!
    11-12-2014 09:31 AM
  9. TechmeIN64's Avatar
    Microsoft should do six phones per year, and not use a naming scheme that potentially can confuse consumers who are not in the know (925 sounds pretty similar to 930). These are names I just arbitrarily decided on and I do not think MS should actually use them. Obviously the "1" would increase with each iteration.

    Flagships (5" and 6") -- Lumia Icon 1 and Lumia Icon X 1 -- Replaces the 9xx and 15xx lines
    Midrange (5" and 6") -- Lumia Mid 1 and Lumia Mid X 1 -- Replaces the 7/8xx and 13xx lines
    Low End (4.5" or 5") -- Lumia Base 1 -- Replaces the 5/6xx lines
    Camera Specialty (5") -- Lumia Capture 1 -- Has a huge sensor (likely with camera bump) with dedicated camera processor but other specs upper midrange to replace 1020 line, equally expensive to Icon line
    Nogitsune Micah likes this.
    11-12-2014 09:51 PM
  10. Karthik Naik's Avatar
    my two year old Lumia 720 proves that a $300 phone can be rocked for a long time with full support,excellent quality in build,camera and battery etc and never stop amazing me
    so no the Lumia brand is totally worth it with exclusive apps and great quality and value
    Nogitsune Micah likes this.
    11-12-2014 11:33 PM
  11. MSFTisMIA's Avatar
    my two year old Lumia 720 proves that a $300 phone can be rocked for a long time with full support,excellent quality in build,camera and battery etc and never stop amazing me
    so no the Lumia brand is totally worth it with exclusive apps and great quality and value
    I get that the brand itself has good value to it. I'm just asking if it is overrate or not. MSFT should have been the one to get the exclusive apps, not Nokia. I think when you look at the exclusive apps, folks have to cinder the difference between non Lumia exclusive apps and the Lumia ones. Initially, Lumia offered access to apps MSFT had problems getting, in addition to how kick *** their camera, maps, and music apps are.

    But the gap closed once MSFT started to get more of the non Lumia exclusives and the alternatives for the camera apps are good. MixRadio is still better than Xbox music (most things are, anyways) and once Nokia's navigation suite was open to the whole platform, that edge vanished too.

    So my question is remains: At this point, is the Lumia brand overrated?
    N_LaRUE likes this.
    11-14-2014 09:34 AM
  12. Aresjr21's Avatar
    Microsoft should do six phones per year, and not use a naming scheme that potentially can confuse consumers who are not in the know (925 sounds pretty similar to 930). These are names I just arbitrarily decided on and I do not think MS should actually use them. Obviously the "1" would increase with each iteration.

    Flagships (5" and 6") -- Lumia Icon 1 and Lumia Icon X 1 -- Replaces the 9xx and 15xx lines
    Midrange (5" and 6") -- Lumia Mid 1 and Lumia Mid X 1 -- Replaces the 7/8xx and 13xx lines
    Low End (4.5" or 5") -- Lumia Base 1 -- Replaces the 5/6xx lines
    Camera Specialty (5") -- Lumia Capture 1 -- Has a huge sensor (likely with camera bump) with dedicated camera processor but other specs upper midrange to replace 1020 line, equally expensive to Icon line
    I dont understand your point about the 925 to 930. I dont think that would confuse consumers because they are used to higher numbers meaning latest product. For example, that is to say the ps3 and ps4 will confuse consumers or for that matter Final Fantasy 10 and Final Fantasy 11. The only way I think that would be confusing if both devices were released at the same time, which I believe they weren't, so as a consumer I would believe the 930 to have better tech and be a more recent device than the 925.
    11-14-2014 09:48 AM
  13. Aresjr21's Avatar
    So my question is remains: At this point, is the Lumia brand overrated?
    To just answer your question, in my honest opinion, no i dont think so. Compared to other OEMs that currently supply WPs, they are the biggest driving force to advancements in our devices and features; not to mention quality of handsets. By no means, I love the M8 and what it has brought to the platform but that is nothing compared to what the Nokia line has done. The efforts alone and the things done by Nokia from Sensor Core, to its app suite, to its devices, to the mostly stellar to perfect windows experience that most users enjoy with their devices I can't say they are. I think about it to myself and say that if Nokia was overrated and we have other devices that are better, which to switch to? The M8 seems to be the only option and seeing how that is recent in my opinion, I want to see how that device holds through time with updates and support from HTC. To me manufacturers like Samsung is overrated due to living off of name along (WP here) and not supplying a device to really help push the platform in anyway except gather stats.
    11-14-2014 10:01 AM
  14. Karthik Naik's Avatar
    I get that the brand itself has good value to it. I'm just asking if it is overrate or not. MSFT should have been the one to get the exclusive apps, not Nokia. I think when you look at the exclusive apps, folks have to cinder the difference between non Lumia exclusive apps and the Lumia ones. Initially, Lumia offered access to apps MSFT had problems getting, in addition to how kick *** their camera, maps, and music apps are.

    But the gap closed once MSFT started to get more of the non Lumia exclusives and the alternatives for the camera apps are good. MixRadio is still better than Xbox music (most things are, anyways) and once Nokia's navigation suite was open to the whole platform, that edge vanished too.

    So my question is remains: At this point, is the Lumia brand overrated?
    nope it provides a level of quality most androids also cannot achieve
    especially in build quality
    11-14-2014 02:42 PM
  15. sahib lopez's Avatar
    nope it provides a level of quality most androids also cannot achieve
    especially in build quality
    that is subjective to say the least . every phone has quality issues i mean we don't have to go far because we just need to check the forums.
    i want to think what you said is spot on but that's far from reality
    11-14-2014 11:31 PM
  16. Karthik Naik's Avatar
    that is subjective to say the least . every phone has quality issues i mean we don't have to go far because we just need to check the forums.
    i want to think what you said is spot on but that's far from reality
    not really
    i mean think about it
    most android phones except nexus and HTC have more quality issues
    most notoriously samsung whose bezel etc cant sustain scratches and the scratches turn white in colour
    with my red Lumia 720,scratches are barely seen and the polycarbonate is mighty tough
    any scratches on my 720 are red in colour itself not white underneath or something
    the entire material used is red,so its not a paint or something
    also my 720 and nexus have taken zero fall damage even without a cover many times
    after using(and destroying) many (android) phones and finally discovering Lumia (and Nexus) i can say that their build quality and materials used is very top notch for the price
    11-15-2014 12:17 AM
  17. MSFTisMIA's Avatar
    not really
    i mean think about it
    most android phones except nexus and HTC have more quality issues
    most notoriously samsung whose bezel etc cant sustain scratches and the scratches turn white in colour
    with my red Lumia 720,scratches are barely seen and the polycarbonate is mighty tough
    any scratches on my 720 are red in colour itself not white underneath or something
    the entire material used is red,so its not a paint or something
    also my 720 and nexus have taken zero fall damage even without a cover many times
    after using(and destroying) many (android) phones and finally discovering Lumia (and Nexus) i can say that their build quality and materials used is very top notch for the price
    That's your personal experience. There are a ton of 920/928 users who will disagree. There are enough threads here that people talk about being on their 3rd, 4th, even 7th Lumia due to exchanges etc. Some of those people have tried to stick with their phone because the phone works for them.

    As much as people ding Samsung plastic, it is just as durable as Nokian polycarbonate. It doesn't always look pretty when dinged up, but the phone still works. Each OEM has build quality issues. It happens with mass produced electronics...even the iPhone.
    sahib lopez and N_LaRUE like this.
    11-15-2014 06:25 AM
  18. JamesPTao's Avatar
    That's your personal experience. There are a ton of 920/928 users who will disagree. There are enough threads here that people talk about being on their 3rd, 4th, even 7th Lumia due to exchanges etc. Some of those people have tried to stick with their phone because the phone works for them.

    As much as people ding Samsung plastic, it is just as durable as Nokian polycarbonate. It doesn't always look pretty when dinged up, but the phone still works. Each OEM has build quality issues. It happens with mass produced electronics...even the iPhone.
    Not true at all I have owned both. And I wouldn't base the quality of Nokia phones on people in these forums, no offense to members but we have a bunch of nitpicking whiners on here. Case in point by reading on these forums you would think the 930 had tons of issues but look on amazon and you will see hundreds of reviews on the phone with an average rating higher than any I've seen for anything I've ever bought or looked at on amazon. The grand majority on amazon says its the best phone they've ever owned. I added the last part for respective. These forums can be helpful for advice and info but definently aren't reliable for judging the quality of a phone.
    Karthik Naik likes this.
    11-15-2014 06:32 AM
  19. MSFTisMIA's Avatar
    To just answer your question, in my honest opinion, no i dont think so. Compared to other OEMs that currently supply WPs, they are the biggest driving force to advancements in our devices and features; not to mention quality of handsets. By no means, I love the M8 and what it has brought to the platform but that is nothing compared to what the Nokia line has done. The efforts alone and the things done by Nokia from Sensor Core, to its app suite, to its devices, to the mostly stellar to perfect windows experience that most users enjoy with their devices I can't say they are. I think about it to myself and say that if Nokia was overrated and we have other devices that are better, which to switch to? The M8 seems to be the only option and seeing how that is recent in my opinion, I want to see how that device holds through time with updates and support from HTC. To me manufacturers like Samsung is overrated due to living off of name along (WP here) and not supplying a device to really help push the platform in anyway except gather stats.
    I still say it is hard to compare Nokia to other WP OEMs fairly because they were the only one that had to be fully vested. HTC is the closest to compare but really, I still say they were held back by both the OS itself and their financial woes.
    N_LaRUE likes this.
    11-15-2014 06:52 AM
  20. MohitKJain's Avatar
    I am yet to face any issue whatsoever. I feel the build quality is way better than most other phones. I have owned HTC One X, One M8, lumia 800, 720 and I am currently using 1520. All I can say is that Lumias are the best handsets I have ever owned. And of course it's my opinion so it's definitely subjective
    Karthik Naik likes this.
    11-15-2014 06:54 AM
  21. Bagzton's Avatar
    Yes far too many numbers, I think they should pick three sizes, maybe 4.5", 5" and 6" and then do a low, medium and top end phone in each at most.



    Bob
    I totally agree with this!
    11-15-2014 07:24 AM
  22. MSFTisMIA's Avatar
    Not true at all I have owned both. And I wouldn't base the quality of Nokia phones on people in these forums, no offense to members but we have a bunch of nitpicking whiners on here. Case in point by reading on these forums you would think the 930 had tons of issues but look on amazon and you will see hundreds of reviews on the phone with an average rating higher than any I've seen for anything I've ever bought or looked at on amazon. The grand majority on amazon says its the best phone they've ever owned. I added the last part for respective. These forums can be helpful for advice and info but definently aren't reliable for judging the quality of a phone.
    I never use members here as a gauge. I've owned a 810, 8X and now have a 1520 (tested out a Ativ S too). All had no issues for me. I had the dust in the FFC for my 920 but didn't see it complaint worthy for my usage.

    But my point is same. Build quality amongst OEMs has been argued since the dawn of cell phones. There are lemons out there. So I don't see the build quality of Nokia as superior to other OEMs. I've owned about 60 total smartphones in the past 10 years - most as daily drivers for on average about 6-8 months - so i based my comments on my own subjective experience.

    From a hardware perspective, Lumia is not overrated. Software wise, it has gotten there, simply because the larger app exclusivity Nokia got initially is much smaller now than what you get from a HTC.
    sahib lopez likes this.
    11-15-2014 07:26 AM
  23. Aresjr21's Avatar
    I still say it is hard to compare Nokia to other WP OEMs fairly because they were the only one that had to be fully vested. HTC is the closest to compare but really, I still say they were held back by both the OS itself and their financial woes.
    With that being said, is that a slight against Nokia or other OEMs? It isn't as though right out of the gate of WP it was Nokia devices providing the best devices/support/etc. WP was pretty much an open class to be taken over, other OEMs didn't think to possibly lead in that category because of its low market share. I would note that yes, HTC was a big supporter of WP devices and early on tried to provide a plethora of devices but due to financial woes decided Android was more feasible to survive except Nokia was in the same position at the time and could have adopted Android as well but instead made a pact with MSFT; fast forward to today and look to where they are.
    MSFTisMIA likes this.
    11-15-2014 08:53 AM
  24. MSFTisMIA's Avatar
    With that being said, is that a slight against Nokia or other OEMs? It isn't as though right out of the gate of WP it was Nokia devices providing the best devices/support/etc. WP was pretty much an open class to be taken over, other OEMs didn't think to possibly lead in that category because of its low market share. I would note that yes, HTC was a big supporter of WP devices and early on tried to provide a plethora of devices but due to financial woes decided Android was more feasible to survive except Nokia was in the same position at the time and could have adopted Android as well but instead made a pact with MSFT; fast forward to today and look to where they are.
    HTC's problems are well documented. People complain that HTC doesn't do original work for WP - the 8X and 8s were original and still two of the 3 best designs...and they didn't do well. I remember when the 8X first came out and people complained at HTC copying Nokia. The only thing I wish they did was to have put 32GB + Qi in the 8X and 8GB in the 8S, but they may have had sourcing issues and chose to go the cheaper route.

    I think there's enough room in the WP space for HTC to use the same hardware for both Android and WP and that be successful. Nokia had a little bit more leeway with their updates because they were taking MSFT money. I'm curious now with MSFT owning its own hardware division how that shakes out. At least Google seems to update Android a bit more frequently than MSFT...so HTC has to update their offerings software support wise.
    N_LaRUE likes this.
    11-15-2014 09:53 AM
  25. Aresjr21's Avatar
    With that being said do you think Nokia, now being MSFT, is overrated? Because of recent events from all the OEMs currently developing for WPs and release of the M8?
    11-15-2014 12:01 PM
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