05-01-2015 03:43 PM
52 123
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  1. Greywolf1967's Avatar
    So there are some things to take away from Build today.....

    1) Yes Microsoft wants it's services on iOS and Android, as you can't wipe them from the face of the earth, so best to hook new consumers where they live. Hook them on the services, so later they look at the hardware that has the software.

    2) Yes the apps on other OS looked better and has added features that our Windows Phones didn't get..........however that WILL change, and from what was shown today it only gets better from here !!!!!

    3) Microsoft has removed any and all blocks and issues Dev's had that stopped them from bringing apps to Windows 10.

    4) Microsoft has really really slapped Apple in the face with their One platform many devices/Universal App mind set. A direct shot at Apple and iOS/Mac 2 OS way of doing things.

    5) Microsoft is dead serious about it's Mobile Platform !!!! They have planted their feet firm to say they are here to stay.

    6) Even though they made a huge splash...they really do need to learn how to hype a key note.......Over an hour of Code based stuff and then huge release after release......They almost lost the attention of the crowd and viewers with an hour long sleeping pill. They need to learn something called rise and fall..... Excite the crowd.....then dull it up a bit....Excite the crowd....then a dull bit.

    Any thoughts????

    I know I am excited most about Mouse and Keyboard with my Phone.....my Phone can be my Mobile PC....The Tablet interface for my Acer W3 with Windows 10.....Hololens just became something I may invest in after the demo today !!!! Just 1 thing would make my day now....a Microsoft Watch to pair with my Phone!!!!!!!
    04-29-2015 03:19 PM
  2. ven07's Avatar
    Agreed with points 2-6 hehe.. After the recent reveal that MS had been losing money and adopting android apps, I was starting to think this is the same strategy BB used once, but that isn't the case at all.. I'm happy to see that MS will try their hand at mobile for the foreseeable future!

    However the future of WP is still in the balance, if the user base doesn't grow and the developers still decide to shun our OS then....
    04-29-2015 03:40 PM
  3. Spectrum90's Avatar
    3) Microsoft has removed any and all blocks and issues Dev's had that stopped them from bringing apps to Windows 10.

    The success of this strategy depends on how good are the iOS and Android emulators.

    IMO, the two problems of Windows Phone were Metro and the app gap, solving these two problems the platform should take off.
    ven07 likes this.
    04-29-2015 04:06 PM
  4. fatclue_98's Avatar
    The success of this strategy depends on how good are the iOS and Android emulators.
    That's just it, there aren't going to be emulators. iOS and Android apps can be recompiled to run natively as WP apps.
    04-29-2015 04:50 PM
  5. Mike Majeski's Avatar
    When the only negative The Verge can "report" is that "Microsoft Wants To Push Ads To Your Lockscreen" (they always have to get one headshaker in each day, don't they), I think you had a pretty successful build.
    04-29-2015 04:55 PM
  6. Legoboyii's Avatar
    When the only negative The Verge can "report" is that "Microsoft Wants To Push Ads To Your Lockscreen" (they always have to get one headshaker in each day, don't they), I think you had a pretty successful build.
    Two more keynotes to go ;) //BUILD/ is a three day thing.
    aximtreo and ven07 like this.
    04-29-2015 04:59 PM
  7. Spectrum90's Avatar
    That's just it, there aren't going to be emulators. iOS and Android apps can be recompiled to run natively as WP apps.
    IMO, If the app is recompiled or not is irrelevant. Windows has to implement a huge indirection layer to provide the app with all the APIs and services that the original operating system provide. Windows has to emulate Android or iOS for the app.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    04-29-2015 05:02 PM
  8. Kodiak12's Avatar
    4) Microsoft has really really slapped Apple in the face with their One platform many devices/Universal App mind set. A direct shot at Apple and iOS/Mac 2 OS way of doing things.
    Right on the money with this one my friend. It's the reason I left Apple's ecosystem. I used to have Mac Desktops, Macbooks, iPads and of course their phones. Unparalleled build quality but I just couldn't bridge the gap between iOS and OSX. Loved being mobile with the iPad but I always needed OSX for some heavy lifting. It's so liberating carrying a thin and light 10" Windows tablet with "everything" you own then shoving that same device into a dock for a true desktop experience.

    I am so looking forward to see how Continuum moves forward. Perhaps one day I'll just be down to a single device.
    04-29-2015 05:03 PM
  9. fatclue_98's Avatar
    IMO, If the app is recompiled or not is irrelevant. Windows has to implement a huge indirection layer to provide the app with all the APIs and services that the original operating system provide. Windows has to emulate Android or iOS for the app.
    This is straight from the horse's mouth:

    During today's Build 2015 keynote address, Microsoft confirmed that it has set up a way to allow apps made for Android in Java and C++ to be quickly complied for Windows 10.
    Those apps will take advantage of existing Android code but developers will also be able to use the Windows platform tools to create new Universal apps. This should save developers both time and money by allowing the bulk of their code to be reused.
    Apps can still use Windows APIs such as location, and they can run in a Windows Security container to allow for a trustworthy experience. Apps navigation will be integrated with Windows navigation model so they'll feel just like any other apps when you're using them. Even Live tiles and integration with Microsoft services can be used with these recompiled Android apps.
    It's not about running Android apps on Windows. It's about making it easier for current developers on other platforms to bring their wares to Windows.

    Here's more reading:

    Microsoft going all out courting iOS and Android developers for Windows 10 | Windows Central
    04-29-2015 05:14 PM
  10. a5cent's Avatar
    That's just it, there aren't going to be emulators. iOS and Android apps can be recompiled to run natively as WP apps.
    One thing I took away from the keynote is that MS has two different approaches for porting iOS and Android apps.

    Terry Meyerson mentioned something he called an Android Subsystem, which another presenter called the Android Security Container. That means there's at least some emulation going on, apparently focused on dealing with security related issues, but that's nowhere near what we'd normally associate with the term "emulation". It will be interesting to learn exactly what this container is and what it provides and costs (in terms of resources and performance).

    Apparently, apps being ported from iOS won't require this container, which is no surprise considering that iOS and WP are conceptually far more similar to each other than they are to Android. I also got the impression that porting from iOS is very much preferable to porting from Android, the later existing more as an afterthought, because WP is trying to make inroads into markets where many of the most popular apps are available only for Android.

    Despite the rumour having been that Android apps would run on WP, I suspect the overwhelming majority of apps the WP ecosystem receives in this way will have started life on iOS and have absolutely nothing to do with Android.

    IMO, If the app is recompiled or not is irrelevant. Windows has to implement a huge indirection layer to provide the app with all the APIs and services that the original operating system provide. Windows has to emulate Android or iOS for the app.
    For Android there will be something like that going on. I guess the question there is how much.

    Ignoring that peculiarity for apps ported from Android, I don't think we can know how "thick" that indirection layer for everything else will be. What if all the heavy lifting is done by the conversion tool, rather than at runtime? I have no idea how this is setup, but I'm not sure anyone else here does either.
    Last edited by a5cent; 04-29-2015 at 05:30 PM. Reason: response to Spectrum90
    04-29-2015 05:17 PM
  11. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Terry Meyerson mentioned something he called an Android Subsystem, which another presenter called the Android Security Container.
    I believe they were trying to explain the difference between what MS will be doing compared to the Android Runtime being used for BlackBerry. I'm sure there will be a sandbox of some kind with either Android or iOS apps.
    04-29-2015 05:31 PM
  12. a5cent's Avatar
    ^ I wouldn't call it a sandbox, because as I understood it (that's one big caveat there), the purpose of this container is to fake the ability to do things that WP disallows for security reasons. The purpose of this security container is not related to isolation, which is typically what the term "sandbox" refers to.
    Anyway, the requirement to fake the ability to do unsafe things doesn't exist for apps coming from iOS, at least nowhere near the same extent. That's why it made sense to me that its existence was only acknowledged for apps coming from Android.
    But yeah, for all I know you could be right. All we got was a short glimpse from 10'000 feet. We now know what were looking at, but can't yet see any of the details (or at least I can't).
    Last edited by a5cent; 04-30-2015 at 04:14 AM.
    04-29-2015 05:43 PM
  13. Spectrum90's Avatar
    Ignoring that peculiarity for apps ported from Android, I don't think we can know how "thick" that indirection layer for everything else will be. What if all the heavy lifting is done by the conversion tool, rather than at runtime? I have no idea how this is setup, but I'm not sure anyone else here does either.
    Although, the indirection has to happen anyways, whether compile time or runtime. The operating system provides the environment that the app expects, or the app is adapted to the OS by the compiler. Both process require deep knowledge of the behavior of the original system, and bugs or performance problems can be introduced in both steps.
    For Android this work is easier because It's open source, Microsoft has access to a perfectly precise description of the behavior of the system. For iOS It's a lot more difficult.
    aximtreo likes this.
    04-29-2015 06:07 PM
  14. fatclue_98's Avatar
    ^ I wouldn't call it a sandbox, because as I understood it (that's one big caveat there), the purpose of this container is to fake the ability to do things that WP disallows for security reasons. The purpose of this security container is not related to isolation, which is what the term sandbox is usually related to. Anyway, the requirement to fake the ability to do unsafe things doesn't exist for apps coming from iOS, at least nowhere near to the same extent. That's why it made sense to me that it's existence was only acknowledged for apps coming from Android.

    But yeah, for all I know you could be right. All we got was a short glimpse from 10'000 feet. We now know what were looking at, but can't yet see any of the details (or at least I can't).
    For the purposes of discussion, let's just say we don't care if they do it with smoke and mirrors. If it's beneficial to WP, I'm all for it.

    Sent from my Passport using Tapatalk
    04-29-2015 06:22 PM
  15. a5cent's Avatar
    For the purposes of discussion, let's just say we don't care if they do it with smoke and mirrors. If it's beneficial to WP, I'm all for it.
    Except that to make a worthwhile prediction whether it's good for WP, requires understanding how they do it, or more precisely, what the consequences are of how they do it.
    04-29-2015 06:37 PM
  16. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Except that to make a worthwhile prediction whether it's good for WP, requires understanding how they do it, or more precisely, what the consequences are of how they do it.
    Considering no other OS provider divulges details of its systems to the public prior to release, I don't see how the public-at-large should concern themselves with the inner workings of their devices. We as enthusiasts enjoy a "closer look" at what makes our devices tick but I don't think we have any special privileges in deciding what goes in or out. Microsoft has been more than generous in providing technical previews and offering us the opportunity to provide feedback but that certainly doesn't mean we can decide whether a new system of apps is good for the platform unless we know how it works or if it's a detriment to the OS. We are a small minority of a >3% worldwide platform. I'm confident that Microsoft has thought this out cleanly and now the ball's in the developers' court.
    aximtreo likes this.
    04-29-2015 08:10 PM
  17. a5cent's Avatar
    Considering no other OS provider divulges details of its systems to the public prior to release, I don't see how the public-at-large should concern themselves with the inner workings of their devices. We as enthusiasts enjoy a "closer look" at what makes our devices tick but I don't think we have any special privileges in deciding what goes in or out.
    I think we're coming at this from very different angles. I also feel that you're reading things into my comments that I never said.

    Nobody is saying that we have any say in what goes in or out. Furthermore, nobody is saying that the public-at-large should concern themselves with the inner workings of their devices. The average Joe wouldn't understand it even if he wanted to, and he doesn't want to. Finally, the build conference isn't directed at the public at large, but at developers. I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
    04-29-2015 09:10 PM
  18. fatclue_98's Avatar
    I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
    The problem with written words is that it lacks context and the author's intent. I think we both agree that today's revelations will be a watershed event for Microsoft and the mobile division in particular. I also think we agree that gaining access to more apps would go a long way to dispel the "app gap" notion. Maybe I'm a little more gung-ho in the approach Microsoft should take since for all intents and purposes, it's the bottom of the ninth and they got nobody on base and down by three runs. I don't think now is the time to be cautious or gun shy. Many of us here have shown that they're willing to take chances on the previews for both PCs and phones knowing that these are buggy, incomplete and even capable of bricking devices. I'd hate to see the brass at Microsoft try to bunt for a base hit instead of swinging for the fences. This is a unique opportunity we're being presented and it shouldn't be wasted worrying about how the apps work or where they come from. Those are my words, not a play on yours.
    a5cent, Laura Knotek and aximtreo like this.
    04-29-2015 09:56 PM
  19. Spencer Carriveau's Avatar
    Didn't anyone but me notice Joe Belfiore say that they were simulating what continuum on a phone would look like because they don't have the hardware for it yet and he said there were be more about the hardware/reveal it on Thursday(tomorrow)? Meaning potential unveil of new phone.
    04-29-2015 10:00 PM
  20. Indistinguishable's Avatar
    Didn't anyone but me notice Joe Belfiore say that they were simulating what continuum on a phone would look like because they don't have the hardware for it yet and he said there were be more about the hardware/reveal it on Thursday(tomorrow)? Meaning potential unveil of new phone.
    I thought I heard that too... Then no one else mentioned it anywhere. Does that mean we'll get a look at something on Thursday? Or are we misunderstanding completely...
    04-29-2015 10:28 PM
  21. Phone Guy 4567's Avatar
    Considering no other OS provider divulges details of its systems to the public prior to release, I don't see how the public-at-large should concern themselves with the inner workings of their devices. We as enthusiasts enjoy a "closer look" at what makes our devices tick but I don't think we have any special privileges in deciding what goes in or out. Microsoft has been more than generous in providing technical previews and offering us the opportunity to provide feedback but that certainly doesn't mean we can decide whether a new system of apps is good for the platform unless we know how it works or if it's a detriment to the OS. We are a small minority of a >3% worldwide platform. I'm confident that Microsoft has thought this out cleanly and now the ball's in the developers' court.

    The public at large doesn't concern themselves with how this stuff works, and they shouldn't. What they will concern themselves with is app performance, and the performance of these recompiled apps better run as well or better then the iOS or Android counterparts.

    With more and more WP apps looking less and less unique from their Android & iOS versions what is the motivation for the average person who doesn't care about the behind the curtain stuff to select WP? IMO after Windows 10 is released developers will give these new compilers a shot but if they don't see usage share increases fairly quickly, or the resulting apps are buggy and require time and effort to fix it's game over.
    Spectrum90 likes this.
    04-29-2015 10:47 PM
  22. Spencer Carriveau's Avatar
    I thought I heard that too... Then no one else mentioned it anywhere. Does that mean we'll get a look at something on Thursday? Or are we misunderstanding completely...
    Thank you, I had begun to consider the possibility that I didn't hear him right or remembered it incorrectly(you know, our memory being so failable and inaccurate no matter how accurate we think we are, with each time we recall something we may change or distort it a little bit which is why oral histories handed down generation to generation are largely inaccurate vs recorded history(sorry for the little tangent here)).
    04-29-2015 10:51 PM
  23. a5cent's Avatar
    Didn't anyone but me notice Joe Belfiore say that they were simulating what continuum on a phone would look like because they don't have the hardware for it yet and he said there were be more about the hardware/reveal it on Thursday(tomorrow)? Meaning potential unveil of new phone.
    You misunderstood that.

    What you saw at build was the exact state of continuum as it currently exists. Nothing about the UI or how it looks is simulated.

    What is being simulated is the currently non-existent hardware that continuum depends in. Think of it as a mini VM. When the hardware becomes available, the VM is swapped out for the real thing, and the OS runs unaltered and (hopefully) as intended.

    That's how software developers target future hardware that is still under development.
    04-30-2015 04:29 AM
  24. Indistinguishable's Avatar
    You misunderstood that.

    What you saw at build was the exact state of continuum as it currently exists. Nothing about the UI or how it looks is simulated.

    What is being simulated is the currently non-existent hardware that continuum depends in. Think of it as a mini VM. When the hardware becomes available, the VM is swapped out for the real thing, and the OS runs unaltered and (hopefully) as intended.

    That's how software developers target future hardware that is still under development.
    So then what regarding continuum, and the hardware that can use it, are we to see today?
    04-30-2015 07:49 AM
  25. a5cent's Avatar
    So then what regarding continuum, and the hardware that can use it, are we to see today?
    I don't understand the question. How am I to know what MS intends to present?
    04-30-2015 07:52 AM
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