[crystal_planet]

I think they're likely right. It's not just the weight, it's how you have to carry it. That wider screen means the weight is exerting more leverage against your fingers, so it "feels" heavier than it is. But this subjective feel is likely more truthful for daily use - a device like that will be much more tiring to hold and use than it's weight suggests.

Can I take a page from Apple and say, "You're holding it wrong"? I'd imagine it's more ungainly holding it in portrait mode because of simple physics, but you will probably use landscape 85% of the time anyway.

**Sent from my Windows Phone using Board Express**

[crystal_planet]

Because the shortfalls were not obviously there in the first place.

The Surface had not yet been released and reviewed. There was no reason to suspect that a machine 1/4 the weight of my Lenovo and 1/4 the size would nonetheless still suffer from the same handling issues.

WinRT (the OS, not the API) had not yet been released and reviewed. So it was not yet apparent that Microsoft had not included WP7.5/WP8 compatibility on a machine running the same basic ARM CPU as their phones, running on the same basic OS kernel as their phones, thus depriving their splashy new tablet OS the apps it critically needs at this early stage of its existence.

I disagree. I knew the app situation would be completely undeveloped and I knew the form factor going in. Based on the amount of 7.5 threads here, we also knew that it would be left behind when 8.0 was released.


**Sent from my Windows Phone using Board Express**

[justreason]

Read ar technica's and engadget's.. The hardware seemed cool to both.. They said the speakers are not that loud which is bad since it has two but having an Xbox will be cool for when I'm home.. They said the keyboards will take some getting used to..

Apps.. Apps.. Apps.. Microsoft will get the surface what it needs.. Might have to be patient.. The Xbox has so much more than the ps3.. So I'm confident..

Can't wait to start publishing eBooks and writing my dissertation on my surface with a cyan keyboard.. Completely replacing my black MacBook..

Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express

[mparker]

Can I take a page from Apple and say, "You're holding it wrong"? I'd imagine it's more ungainly holding it in portrait mode because of simple physics, but you will probably use landscape 85% of the time anyway.

My Lenovo is ungainly in both orientations, but for different reasons. In portrait it's tippy. In landscape it's nice and stable and easy to hold, as long as you are just looking at it. Once you start pointing and pinching and typing it get much more ungainly, because now you're holding it one-handed with that width and weight hanging out there; even tapping the screen on the far side causes noticeable tilting because even the slight pressure of a tap has much greater leverage against your fingers. And the split virtual keyboard isn't as easy to use as you'd think.

I disagree. I knew the app situation would be completely undeveloped and I knew the form factor going in. Based on the amount of 7.5 threads here, we also knew that it would be left behind when 8.0 was released.

I was one of the ones arguing most vociferously that there were sound economic and technical reasons why WP7.x devices were unlikely to be upgraded, against a chorus of people claiming that there was no way Microsoft would abandon them. This is a different situation, and much more serious. Microsoft is gimping their tablet OS from the start, for no good technical or economic reason that I can discern. If it's true that WP8 can run WP7.5 apps, on the same basic CPU and same basic OS kernel as WinRT, then I fail to see why WinRT couldn't have included that WP7.x/WP8.x subsystem.

[power5]

I thought current windows phone apps would work in RT. Not optimized for RT but will still run.

[mparker]

I thought current windows phone apps would work in RT. Not optimized for RT but will still run.

Yup. They would have been perfect in that 1/3 snap view. And in landscape they could have unrolled the panorama view to fill more of the screen (so a 2-panel panorama would run in 2/3 snap, and a 3-panel panorama could fill the screen in landscape mode).

[stmav]

The form factor has been out there for everyone to see all along. Hindsight is a wonderful thing when you're looking for faults.

[crystal_planet]

I don't think you can run 7.5 apps on 8.0 or vice versa, bit I could be wrong.

**Sent from my Windows Phone using Board Express**

[mparker]

The form factor has been out there for everyone to see all along. Hindsight is a wonderful thing when you're looking for faults.

The aspect ratio has been known for awhile. I've owned a 1.5lb 4:3 tablet that was light and handy, and a 4.5lb 15:9 convertible tablet that is neither light nor handy. Not sure why I should have guessed ahead of time that it was the aspect ratio and not the weight that was the real culprit.

If the problems with the aspect ratio are as obvious as you say, why didn't Microsoft fix this problem? All the reviewers picked up on this problem right away. Sure 4:3 screens are relatively uncommon nowadays, but Apple and Amazon can get them, and you notice nobody complains about how ungainly their tablets are.

[mparker]

I don't think you can run 7.5 apps on 8.0 or vice versa, bit I could be wrong.

Microsoft has said that "virtually all" WP7.5 apps will work on WP8. If this isn't the case, and WP8 will only run WP8 apps, then it certainly explains why WinRT doesn't either. It also explains all the secrecy about WP8.

[Rallicat]

Seen a few of the reviews ... and some of the reviews of the reviews.

They all seem to generally like the hardware but hate on the software a bit .. which tbh was probably to be expected.

I'll be heavily countering the arguments that the software is buggy and the app store small, by pointing out that the same was true with the iOS and Android to start with, and Microsoft are already aggressively pushing to get updates out to users as quickly as they can, and with some big name apps already /in/ the app store, I think we can see the landscape change very quickly.

It's up to us Windows users to spread the word! :)

[rOIVAz]

From the ZDNET review: There’s no SkyDrive synchronization. This one surprised me when I first discovered it. If you want to access files stored in your SkyDrive account, you’ll need to do so via a web browser or the built-in Windows 8 app, using a live Internet connection. The Windows desktop app that syncs files between a local drive and SkyDrive isn’t available for Windows RT. (You can open an Office document from SkyDrive, disconnect from the Internet, and continue editing it offline. The Office Upload Center will upload your changes later, when you reconnect.)

Am I missing something as to why you would expect a wi-fi only device to synchronise or access files in SkyDrive when it's not on an active connection?

*edit* just noticed the review refers to the Metro-style app as Windows 8 rather than WinRT

[mparker]

I'll be heavily countering the arguments that the software is buggy and the app store small, by pointing out that the same was true with the iOS and Android to start with.

This was not true of the iPad at launch - it could run the existing iPhone apps. That made it much more palatable to spend that kind of money on a luxury item. A phone by then was a necessity, so the decision was whether to buy a blackberry, or WM, or an iPhone, not to buy an iPhone or buy nothing. Tablets today, even with the iPad and Kindle success, are still luxury items. The apps help justify that luxury purchase. Office helps in this way for the Surface and other WinRT devices, I just don't think that it helps enough, given that the Surface can't even play MS Minesweeper and Mahjong.

Am I missing something as to why you would expect a wi-fi only device to synchronise or access files in SkyDrive when it's not on an active connection?

It's not that it won't automatically synchronize when it's not on an active connection. It's that it won't automatically synchronize even when it is on an active connection. That is a major fail, for something that is supposed to be cloud-connected with no 4G hardware.

[dkp23]

By skimming through the reviews, seems to me all the stuff that each review likes or dislikes can be said about any other tablet.

what it comes down to is the app store, we are at pre-release, who knows if MS has a load of apps ready to go at launch. If the app store can get close to the competitors over the next few months, it changes things for the surface for both the RT and Pro.

For the most part, what is driving down the opinions in these reviews on whether to get or not or the final scores, is the lack of apps. If there was a filled app store, i think you would of seen a more positive response to the surface. It is all if, ands, or buts, still i think if the app store can be filled quickly, you got a good investment.

This is windows phone all over again. WP is almost there when it comes to popular apps, Surface is starting at the bottom at this point.

For me, if i see the reviews mention hwo this is not a laptop replacement, i just stop reading, that is not a fair comparison. We all know the RT= tablet PRo=laptop, no need to mention how we can't install programs from win 7 or win preview 8. Review it for what it is supposed to be, a tablet.

[squire777]

I don't remember using any tablet, from ipads to Android tablets, that were not awkward to type on. It's not a hot potato that you would have trouble using the split screen keyboard as some are making it out to be.

[mparker]

If the app store can get close to the competitors over the next few months, it changes things for the surface for both the RT and Pro.

The WinRT SDK has been out for over a year. The store has been open for submissions for several months. It currently has a couple thousand apps in it, many of which are desktop apps (won't work on any WinRT) or are x86 metro apps (won't work on ARM WinRT like the Surface), and many of the rest are of poorer quality than for WP. The store is currently growing at roughly the same speed as the WP7.x store back before the certificate issue. At this rate it won't get to the half-million app mark for many years.

This is windows phone all over again. WP is almost there when it comes to popular apps, Surface is starting at the bottom at this point.

Yep. WP7.x/WP8 app support would have improved the situation immensely.

[stmav]

The aspect ratio has been known for awhile. I've owned a 1.5lb 4:3 tablet that was light and handy, and a 4.5lb 15:9 convertible tablet that is neither light nor handy. Not sure why I should have guessed ahead of time that it was the aspect ratio and not the weight that was the real culprit.

If the problems with the aspect ratio are as obvious as you say, why didn't Microsoft fix this problem? All the reviewers picked up on this problem right away. Sure 4:3 screens are relatively uncommon nowadays, but Apple and Amazon can get them, and you notice nobody complains about how ungainly their tablets are.

Only a couple of reviewers and malcontents have complained. I think I'll hold judgement until the gerneral public get them in their hands, myself included. I don't think there's a problem. And wouldn't claim one without hands on first.

You've already got your mind made up so there's no point in debating. Return your surface and enjoy whatever you decide on.

[VagrantWade]

Of course the RT SkyDrive application doesn't automatically synchronize. It has limited hard drive space. Even if it could auto synch, I would turn it off immediately.

And there are 5000+ RT apps, not a couple thousand. Supposedly we will see a huge increase made available on the 26th.

[rOIVAz]

Of course the RT SkyDrive application doesn't automatically synchronize. It has limited hard drive space. Even if it could auto synch, I would turn it off immediately.

Gotcha and ditto - I just wanted to be sure I was understanding the 'complaint' as it was written.

[crystal_planet]

@mparker. It seems you're bound and determined to write off the entire ecosystem and not just the RT. I'm saying this without malice at all, but I think Apple is a much better fit for you.

**Sent from my Windows Phone using Board Express**

[theefman]

I'm not sure why there is surprise that WP apps dont run on Windows RT, this has always been known and there have already been some devs that have ported their apps from WP and have noted how relatively easy it is but there was never any talk of their apps simply running on the tablet OS without having to be ported.

Frankly I'm surprised at the surprise.

[ironsoulreaver]

Of course the RT SkyDrive application doesn't automatically synchronize. It has limited hard drive space. Even if it could auto synch, I would turn it off immediately.

And there are 5000+ RT apps, not a couple thousand. Supposedly we will see a huge increase made available on the 26th.

I agree. Sky drive is cloud storage, syncing files would be beside the point. Although auto sync of some things like contacts and photos.

Win store does not allow paid apps right now and everyone will try to charge money.

[mparker]

@mparker. It seems you're bound and determined to write off the entire ecosystem and not just the RT. I'm saying this without malice at all, but I think Apple is a much better fit for you.

I'm not sure where you got that idea. I'm generally a Microsoft fan, though not an unreasoning fanboy. I've been running WP7 since the Focus 1, and currently have a Lumia 900. I've been running WP8 on my Lenovo X220T since January, and love it - as a laptop. The WinRT side of the OS showed a lot of promise as a tablet OS, which is why I ordered a Surface about 3 minutes after launch.

I've owned both Apple and Android, but am not really a fan of either. I've owned apple laptops and an iPad 1, and currently own both the Nexus One and Galaxy Nexus phones (bought the GNex after the Focus died, then got the L900 at launch).

Win store does not allow paid apps right now and everyone will try to charge money.

It does allow paid apps - there are quite a few of them in there. Perhaps you're still running Consumer Preview - the store for Consumer Preview only had free apps. There are also a lot of desktop apps and x86-only apps in the store. There aren't nearly as many ARM-compatible apps in the store as Microsoft has been implying.

[Narr]

One consistent thing that is coming from these reviews, besides the lack of apps which we already knew, is performance issues. I really hope MS cleans these up quickly.

I will say, I really wish MS could have knocked this out of the park. As it stands, they obviously didn't.

I've read a number of reviews that quote the battery life and performance as bad points too but the only review I've read where they actually test the battery (as opposed to an opinion) is Engadget and they got over 9.5 hours with their standard test. On the performance they said it was "but overall, Surface is fast, responsive and stable.".

Have any other reviews run a battery test or is it just finger in the air?

[ironsoulreaver]

Oh never mind lol