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10-23-2013 10:43 PM
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  1. Adretheon's Avatar
    The price is fine with me, but I say $50 less for each of the RT's and $100 less for the Pro's and these things would have sold wonderfully!
    They should also seriously consider lowering the price of the keyboards as well. a 50-75$ reduction would go a long way for people.
    MSFTisMIA likes this.
    09-24-2013 02:33 PM
  2. toddpart's Avatar
    Hi Todd (if that's not your name sorry)

    I would also not attack your opinion, or try to change it. I think it's amusing when one person criticizes another for their taste in something, whether it be food, music, art, tech, whatever. Full disclosure-I own a Surface Pro which serves as my main computer (Targus 3.0 docking station, dual monitors, etc.), an iPad Mini, Lumia 1020, and I have owned in the past about 7 other Windows Phones, a Lenovo Yoga 13, and a Nexus 7. I have the iPad Mini as a consumption device, but I truly love Windows 8, and would replace the Mini in a heartbeat if/when I find a 7-8" W8 device that I like. I am certainly a MS fanboy when it comes to using their devices and services. However, I am realistic when it comes to defending what they are in the eyes of the general public. I am not afraid to call them out.

    Microsoft needs to get people using Windows 8 by choice, not by necessity. They need to want to use it, and the only way to do that is to offer high quality devices at extremely competitive prices. My sister recently was in the market for a laptop. She was set on a Macbook, and I offered her my lightly used Yoga at a family discount. She agreed, but only if she could use the device for a few weeks first to make sure she liked Windows 8. Well, she absolutely loves Windows 8, and will probably make that her OS of choice in the future for all devices. I remember her comment, "I can't believe this is Microsoft." To expect the general consumer to take the plunge on Windows 8, when they can get a known commodity like an iPad at the same price, is asking a lot. Microsoft needs to change their public image if they want to make this work. They need to get people using Windows 8. 64 gb Surface 2, with touch cover, at $399 could do that. 32gb Surface 2, without touch cover, at $449, when they can get an iPad for almost the same price, is quite a leap of faith. Microsoft doesn't have the market image that allows them to price their products high. They need to create it.

    As for offering free services, I don't think the general consumer reacts to that. They are purchasing the product. Very few consumers buy the car because the dealership offers a year of free oil changes. They are buying the car, not the oil changes.

    Are there some people who will purchase the Surface 2, or Surface 2 Pro at full price? Or course. I'm one of them. But I also understand I'm not the normal consumer. Very few of the members of this message board are general consumers. We're enthusiasts. Unfortunately for Microsoft, there aren't enough of us.
    Appreciate the rational conversation rather than the emotional we so often see elsewhere :-)

    I agree with your thoughts about MS needing to improve it's image with consumers. I'm going to make the leap, based on your comments, that that is the reason you feel the Surface needs to be cheaper...to make up for the bad image and get people to choose their product. Not that it needs to be cheaper because it does not hold the same value as its competitors. In other words, market share...it should be cheaper to gain market share.

    So, let me bounce this one off you for your thoughts...what if MS doesn't care as much about the market share of their Surface devices as much as they do about their market share of OS's? I happen to think the Surface(s) are great devices and really are in a class of themselves for the moment. I also think that MS has done a brilliant job of creating them to show what is possible with the combination of innovative hw engineering and their baby...Windows 8. And they're doing this to A) push OEM's to create stuff that can really compete head to head with Apple and WIN, and B) to send a strong message to the market about their commitment to Windows 8. They have drawn a line in the sand with where they think the world's most popular OS needs to go and they want to show that they are so committed to that vision that they're going to spend their own money on HW as well. You have to admit the Surface set the bar in a lot of ways and OEM's have actually come around; i.e. the Yoga's and the new Sony devices, etc. The Surface doesn't really compete with them head to head because of the price difference. For a dedicated Windows user, like most of us reading this, they are going to go look at now Windows based PC's and many will see they can get more for the money from an OEM. And here's the kicker....the OEM's now have their great kit mainly because they were forced to step up their game to match and beat the vision of the Surface. For MS, so what if they don't buy a Surface...they're still buying a Windows PC and that Windows revenue engine keeps on rolling.

    I think the business world would be wise to remember some of the brilliant tactics, marketing and otherwise, that MS used to achieve the dominance in PC's that they still own to this day. I think that the joint go to market plan with Windows 8 and Surface may be seen as one great strategy a few years from now. Just some thoughts from this MS fan boy...

    (and yes, my name is Todd )
    WillysJeepMan and jmerrey like this.
    09-24-2013 03:18 PM
  3. WillysJeepMan's Avatar
    Hi Todd, good thoughts there.

    It may very well be that is what Microsoft is thinking. However, given that OEMs have trashed Win 8 RT publicly, and are on record that they are not following Microsoft down that path, I don't see the benefit of Microsoft setting the bar for RT devices. If the OEMs want no part of RT, then I'd say to Microsoft to make the S2/RT a loss-leader into the Surface world. They (Microsoft) need to make RT something to be reckoned with, not ignored.

    Windows-based computers are viewed with a commodity mindset. Price is the top (or near top) priority for customers. Build quality is not something the typical Windows customer is that concerned with. So yeah, Microsoft go ahead and make a premier device but keep in mind that you cannot charge a premiere price for it... that mindset isn't there... yet.

    While it is wise to remember some of Microsoft's brilliant tactics, it is also wise to remember their blunders... Origami, Kin, Courier (as a FUD tactic not an actual product), and Zune (to a lesser degree), and Surface round 1.
    Laura Knotek and JKing106 like this.
    09-24-2013 03:38 PM
  4. jmerrey's Avatar
    I agree with what you are saying, as it applies to the Surface 2 Pro. I do see it as a way for MS to drive their OEMs. While I think it is also overpriced, I think it's not as bad as the Surface 2. The Pro 2 is meant for enterprise and power users, and the price is therefore close to being justified. I think the Surface Pro 2 price should stay where it is, but include the Type Cover. How that works logistically with all the colored Type Covers, I'm not sure.

    I think the Surface 2 needs to be priced much lower, simply as a vehicle to get people using Windows 8 by choice. My opinion on the 32gb Surface 2 is the same as the 32 gb Surface RT: there is no place for it in the market, simply due to the lack of storage. My father purchased one and was immediately turned off by this fact alone. Yes, you can purchase an expandable memory stick. And yes, 8.1 brings much better management of the expanded memory, but why should the consumer have to do this? So, my opinion is that the 64gb Surface 2, at $549, or the 32gb Surface 2 with memory stick at roughly $500, are both overpriced. Add the Touch or Type Cover, which anyone who sees a Surface associate with it because of the marketing images. and you are really getting up there in price. Add this to the fact that the Surface 2 is so limited in comparison to the iPad, and you have a tough sell. Yes, you get office on the Surface 2. When someone walks into a Best Buy to purchase a tablet, do you really think the differentiating factor will be the ability to edit Word documents in the official Word application? For the general consumer, absolutely not. It actually leads to another questions : if MS indeed intends to make a 7-8" Surface tablet, what place does the Surface 2 have? The Surface 2 seems to be in the middle, with no target audience.

    To sum up my feelings, if MS does intend to make a 7-8" Surface tablet, then I think not only is the Surface 2 overpriced, but it has no market. It absolutely can't compete with the iPad at that price point. Very few general consumers care about editing Word documents for work on their tablet. They want to watch movies, read, play the latest games, etc. If MS doesn't intend to make a 7-8" Surface tablet, then I think the Surface 2 is overpriced by at least $150.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    09-24-2013 03:51 PM
  5. Adretheon's Avatar
    For MS, so what if they don't buy a Surface...they're still buying a Windows PC and that Windows revenue engine keeps on rolling.
    That's true, but they want you to buy a Surface so that they get more that just a percent of the revenue. If you buy a Surface, most of(if not all) the money goes to Microsoft, but if you buy an Asus then only the OEM % goes to them. Which isn't nearly as much. They want the Surface to succeed on that same level, sure they're fine if they don't, but it's always best to be ahead.

    The people that aren't us are looking at the price in comparison to an Asus(or w/e), and with the price of the Pro being 899(plus the cost of the keyboard) consumers find it smarter to go the other way. And MS needs to find a way to fix that. Why didn't MS make a smaller version of the Surface? Like the Ipad mini? An affordable 7inch tablet, that a lot of people would use as a gateway to a larger device. There's a lot of people that would pay 500-600 for a smaller less powerful Pro, me included. Or even 200-300 for a smaller RT.
    09-24-2013 03:53 PM
  6. toddpart's Avatar
    Good points.

    So yeah, Microsoft go ahead and make a premier device but keep in mind that you cannot charge a premiere price for it... that mindset isn't there... yet.
    True, except if what they're trying to do is start setting expectations a bit differently. Maybe what the standard they're at the beginning of trying to define is that devices from MS directly are not commodities, they are premier devices, to use your wording. Buyers still looking for the commodity angle have plenty of choice in the OEM segment.
    09-24-2013 03:54 PM
  7. WillysJeepMan's Avatar
    Good points.



    True, except if what they're trying to do is start setting expectations a bit differently. Maybe what the standard they're at the beginning of trying to define is that devices from MS directly are not commodities, they are premier devices, to use your wording. Buyers still looking for the commodity angle have plenty of choice in the OEM segment.
    The result: $900 million write down on the Surface.

    I think that Microsoft needs to start at the bargain basement price point and incrementally work upwards. Apple does that with storage capacity pricing... double the storage at each level for an additional $100. Microsoft could do that and by a $50 increase with each generation.

    As the app store grows and the hardware/OS matures and Microsoft demonstrates that they aren't going to pull a Kin or a Zune, the premiere value will be recognized by consumers.
    09-24-2013 04:11 PM
  8. a5cent's Avatar
    I think that Microsoft needs to start at the bargain basement price point and incrementally work upwards. Apple does that with storage capacity pricing... double the storage at each level for an additional $100.
    Except that is not at all what Apple does. Even Apple's cheapest iPhone is sold far above bargain basement price. What is and what isn't too expensive is purely a matter of perception. Sell devices at bargain basement prices, and that is what people will come to believe they are worth. It's a great way to destroy a brand image.

    MS must show to people, that their asking price is a good deal for surface buyers. It should never be about being cheap, which is what you are proposing. It should be about offering the best value for the money, which is possible at any price point.

    MS' problem is that they haven't ever explained to the public what the value of these surface devices is, or in what ways they are better deals than the iPad.
    toddpart likes this.
    09-24-2013 04:32 PM
  9. JKing106's Avatar
    ShaunKL, my point is you can't come out & start selling it beside a premium priced product with a spotty at best track record. Even if it"is" cheaper its still not cheap enough. Especially with a vastly inferior app store. Hyundai's are vastly improved cars and still can't sell them for the same price as the segment leaders. MS has to sell at a significantly lower price & slowly come up as market share adoption increases.
    Agreed. They also need to put real Business Office on it, and do away with the stupid restriction on not being able to join domains. They could have sold a ton of RT's to enterprise if they hadn't been so damn stupid and greedy trying to upsell to the Pro for business use.
    09-24-2013 08:25 PM
  10. JKing106's Avatar
    RT is entry level. It's a mobile device that doesn't run x86 programs, which means Surface2 can't be more expensive than an OEM full Windows 8.1 tablet.
    But oh, it is. You can buy an ASUS T100 with full 8.1 Windows, Office, and a real keyboard/dock for $350. Microsoft is cutting their own throat. Again.
    Laura Knotek and MSFTisMIA like this.
    09-24-2013 08:31 PM
  11. JKing106's Avatar
    Too high. If it included the Touch Cover the price would be more manageable, but I'm having a hard time imagining this product selling well. If you want to talk about free Office, free extra Skydrive storage, and free better Skype that's fine, but the general consumer doesn't care about any of that.

    I'm assuming they priced it at this point so the possible 8" tablet could be priced at $299, which again is absurd. I love their products, but I think MS might have some real problems on the horizon.
    You know who cares about free Skydrive, Skype, and Offices? Enterprise. But Microsoft deliberately crippled the RT/S2 to force businesses to buy the Pro. Non-commercial Office, inability to join domains, no Metro Office. Absolute stupidity. They could have sold milllions of RT's to enterprise. They would have made the perfect take home thin-client laptop replacement. Don't get me started on not offering mobile Office for iOS and Android so they could offer this half-assed strategy on their own hardware. They could have made gabillions in the interim.
    Last edited by JKing106; 09-24-2013 at 08:42 PM. Reason: Additions
    chezm and Laura Knotek like this.
    09-24-2013 08:40 PM
  12. doc109's Avatar
    I was actually going to get an RT mainly for work use, but my IT chair said no way - it doesn't join the work domain and hence, it's not an option. So I ended up with the Pro (and love it). I imagine some others had a similar experience.
    Laura Knotek and JKing106 like this.
    09-24-2013 09:00 PM
  13. six6xis's Avatar
    Agreed. Include the type cover for 449 and I think it would be a fair price. They really need to price them to move so that people will feel the incentive to make apps for it.
    09-24-2013 11:10 PM
  14. Roderick Aspiras's Avatar
    I think this is the price Microsoft has to pay for now for creating their own hardware. They cannot create a big hit that will have an impact with their OEM partners (well its already showing). MS is an position of damn if you do and damn if you don't. I think the pricing is sort of okay but not okay as in OKAY! Then there is the Sirius tablet from Nokia. I hope that the OEMs sell more Win 8.1 tablet that Microsoft because that will be positive for them at least the partners won't think twice because if Microsoft beats their own partners imagine what would happened? Google is knocking on their door and I hate to say it but Google is a opportunistic b@st@rd. What I want though is a bundled Surface with a Windows Phone.
    09-25-2013 09:12 AM
  15. WillysJeepMan's Avatar
    Agreed. Include the type cover for 449 and I think it would be a fair price. They really need to price them to move so that people will feel the incentive to make apps for it.
    I believe that Microsoft needs to include the TouchCover or stop showing the Surface in every commercial and ad with that optional extra-cost accessory. It's great that they're showing off the one easily visible thing that separates the Surface from the iPad but it is a bit of bait-n-switch for customers who go into a store to look at the Surface and discover that the prominently featured keyboard is an extra cost accessory.

    I've been getting a lot more time to use my RT over the last few days and I've concluded that it is better experienced with a TouchCover. I find using Win8 in "touch" mode to be more cumbersome than my iPad. Maybe it's the aspect ratio of the tablet. Maybe it is the on-screen UI elements. There appears to be more whitespace (or empty color) on the screen than the iPad. More whitespace means less content. That requires more gestures in order to consume the same amount of media/text.

    All that to say, the need to include the TouchCover with the Surface at no extra cost. They can keep the keyboard optional for the Pro.
    MSFTisMIA likes this.
    09-25-2013 09:33 AM
  16. johnbash612's Avatar
    I've had my Rt since its release in October 2012. I bought it for 650 dollars then with a touch cover and I can confidently say it was worth every penny today. It's not without its complaints, a low resolution screen coupled with a slower tegra processor definitely hindered the Rt. Before my Rt I used an iPad for school (and other things) for two years. I loved it when I had it, but once I switched to the Rt I couldn't believe the upgrade. I always explain to my friends that the Rt is far closer to its full os than the iPad is to osx. When I got my Rt all the limitations of the iPad were lifted and it felt weird and amazing to use a tablet for 95% of my school and entertainment consumption. So what do I personally think of the price? Well they upgraded the screen and boosted the speed quite a bit from the original and managed a 50 dollar decrease. I think the price is amazing for the technology and versatility you get. The issue is that Microsoft needs to show the value. Now that the dust has settled with Windows 8 and (more) people are adapting to its form factor I think the surface 2 has a chance if the marketing is right. Would I take a lower price for the surface 2? Well yes absolutely, but I can again confidently say that the surface 2 (at least for me) is more than worth its current price tag.
    09-25-2013 10:08 AM
  17. Daylife's Avatar
    You have a source with a confirmation on that Nokia tablet for 500 with LTE and Keyboard? lol
    09-25-2013 05:15 PM
  18. Daylife's Avatar
    EDIT - Not sure why this didn't go in as an indented response, but it was in response to JMERREY's post above.

    First, let me say I'm not attacking your post/opinion. Yours is just one of many I continue to see re: pricing of Surface/Surface 2.

    Here's my question to you and the general populous of people who have the same opinion...why should the Surface/Surface 2 be cheaper in comparison to iOS and/or Android? Why? I understand that some believe it should be cheaper solely to gain market share and that is the only argument in which I can find a shred of validity. But, market share aside, why should it be cheaper? The build quality is at least as good, arguably better, than iPad and certainly better than 99% of the Android tabs out there. You get Office included and more services (SkyDrive and Skype) included than you do on either of those other devices/platforms. And, regarding the keyboard, the others don't include one so if you're buying one of those devices and want a keyboard/cover you're paying out additional money for one as well.

    So, again, what is the justification for why it should be cheaper? It's already cheaper than its primary competitor, iPad, so if all other things are equal or better is this call for reduced pricing just to take a swing at market share?

    Full disclosure - I own a Surface RT and Pro and am considering upgrading both.
    I really dont understand why people want Microsoft to sell a 1080p tablet, TEGRA 4, 11' or whatever size it is, superior build quality, Full office, 200gb skydrive, Skype 1 yr free calling, 32Gb "ipad 16gb is $499 btw. lol....... For like $300, people need to get real.
    09-25-2013 05:18 PM
  19. Daylife's Avatar
    People need to see things like this lol.....Not some paid journalist bashing everything that doesnt have a Apple logo on it. By the way this is the 1st Surface RT.

    09-25-2013 05:21 PM
  20. Daylife's Avatar
    09-25-2013 05:21 PM
  21. nuprotocol's Avatar
    You have a source with a confirmation on that Nokia tablet for 500 with LTE and Keyboard? lol
    zero confirmation yet. just rumors with specs and supposed keyboard combo.

    Microsoft-news.com
    09-25-2013 05:27 PM
  22. Daylife's Avatar
    zero confirmation yet. just rumors with specs and supposed keyboard combo.

    Microsoft-news.com
    Oh ok thats what i thought.
    09-25-2013 05:39 PM
  23. ohgood's Avatar
    Just wondering how people feel about the $449 price on the Surface 2.

    I was hoping they would hit $399. I think the Surface 2 is worth $449 with all the upgrades over the Surface RT but I think at $399 more people would be willing to try it. It is tough to convince people to change ecosystems and price may have helped with that.

    the surface 2 pro, at $449, yep it would sell.
    the surface 2 rt, at $449, nope, it will repeat.



    the ecosystem doesn't look like too much of a problem to me. install a program just like before, login just like before, buy printers just like before.
    09-25-2013 07:52 PM
  24. Daylife's Avatar
    the surface 2 pro, at $449, yep it would sell.
    the surface 2 rt, at $449, nope, it will repeat.



    the ecosystem doesn't look like too much of a problem to me. install a program just like before, login just like before, buy printers just like before.
    Come back when you can be more realistic.
    09-25-2013 07:59 PM
  25. ohgood's Avatar
    Come back when you can be more realistic.
    It's not me, it's the market.
    MSFTisMIA likes this.
    09-25-2013 08:32 PM
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