Current Issues with Surface Pro 2

MBytes

New member
Oct 28, 2013
521
0
0
Visit site
Ok guys. Glad you are interested.

Before I start, they are some things to know:
- A running program (app, game, etc) is called a process. That is the correct terminology.
- A process is fully on RAM (system memory).
- The main processor (CPU - Central Processing Unit) can ONLY access, read, write on your RAM. It has no access to your hard drive or solid state drive, or anything else. That is why a process needs to be on RAM.
- To locate things on the RAM, everything is allocated with addresses, from 0, to the max amount of RAM you have OR the maximum address length your CPU can get.
So if you have a 32-bit CPU that would be 0 to 2^32 (4294967296 ~ 4GB of RAM). Now you know why 32-bit CPU can't address more than 4GB of RAM. (Ok well, they are trick and tricks to by-pass this restrictions with the OS that support this ability, but that is out of scope for this explanations. But if you are really interested, get a book on Operating System Design, however please note that you need prior knowledge of Computer Architecture, another book to get and read before.)
- Stuff placed in RAM cannot be moved. You'll understand bellow why that is the case.
- Also note that this is very complicated, and I am trying my best to make it as simple as possible. So, please bear with me. It may require a second read.

So a program, as we know, is a long set of instructions for the processor. It includes everything that the program does, and including how to draw itself (which either the CPU or the GPU (graphical processing unit) will handle). Now, as it's set of instructions which the processor executes, there is no names to identify things. For example, there is no name "replyTextBox" for the reply box on this forum that I am using right now to post this... well post. All it is, is memory addresses. For example, as I am typing this post on the reply box of the forum, I am entering data in address 94462191 on the server of the forum being hosted (ok well, in reality: a) I don't know that address value... I am pulling a number from my ***, for the sakes of example, and b) I am actually entering the data on MY system RAM, and will be on the server RAM, once I hit the "Post Reply" button, which the server will then follow its instructions, which is to write it on the forum database).

Now, the addresses that a program refers DOES NOT represent the location of the system RAM. As each program have their addresses start at 0. So, if I have multiple processes, they will conflict (program B will execute instructions of program A, when I click on Save button in a program.... what a mess that would be). The way it works, is that when we execute a program, the main processor will load the program to RAM at a free spot, and says: Well the program is at position 25646000 address. So I'll add "25646000" to all the values of the program. So, if there is a reference to address 100, it will be 25646100. Simple. Now we can have multiple processes on our system without any conflicts or issues. And that is also why, a process in RAM can't be moved... the CPU is using it! Imagine filling up a form, where you can't move, and then I come and turn the pages on you, where you'll definitely write at the wrong spot, and psychically move the form on you, write what you are trying to write everywhere and not where you are supposed to. So we can't move things.

Knowing the above, you can see that there is no way that the processor can split a program in RAM into parts. I mean it COULD be possible (anything is possible), but it will be VERY costly to implement and provides 0 performance increase, nor decrease... as RAM is so freaking fast, it can access data in a micro seconds. And that is NOT a bottleneck. So it just cost heavy amount of money for no good reason. Much like SSD's (Solid state drives) the reason why fragmenting provide 0 performance boost, is that it can get all the pieces together in no time (milliseconds. Slower than RAM, as SSD chips are MUCH slower, and they are other bottlenecks in the way)

So, RAM content is never fragmented. All processes are in full blocks in our RAM. So all these "defrag your RAM", "optimize your RAM" programs are 100% bogus... what's to defrag? It’s already defragmented! Beside, even if we had.... for the sakes of argumentation, fragmentation, getting all the pieces cost microseconds. And in reality... there is nothing to even get...because the program on RAM will just refer to other memory address that is simply further down the RAM, so it's like if it was all together. :grin: So no matter how you turn things in an imaginary situation... fragmentation provides 0 performance decrease on RAM.

What we have however, is open fragmentation. That is we have a bunch of empty spots free in our RAM, around programs on RAM, where a new program that we want to load, can't fit in 1 block, despite having the space as in total of all the free spots together.

View is this way:
- Process A consumes 10% of your RAM.
- Process B consumes 40% of your RAM.
- Process C consumes 5% of your RAM.
- Process D consumes 30% of your RAM.
- Process E consumes 5% of your RAM.
- 10% Free space after Process E to the end of your memory.
Total: 90% used, 10% free.

Now, you close Process C. So now, as nothing can move, you have a 5% free space hole in your RAM. In total, you have 15% of free space. Great!

Now, you open Process F, which consume 15% of your RAM. Well you are out of RAM. Because, while you have the space, it doesn't fit into 1 block. Remember nothing can move. You have fragment free space. So you get a low memory error, despite having plenty of free space.

What normally happens in such situation is that Windows (or whatever OS you use), flushes out the RAM clean. Then it copies the pagefile to your RAM in an organize way (defragmented) back the RAM. Your page file is not only an extension of your RAM, in the case you are out of RAM, but also a backup of your RAM. Everything you put on your RAM is duplicated on your page file directly. The reason for this, is to make this open space defragmentation, be performed the fastest as possible. Else, it would need to copy the RAM to your HDD or SSD and then flush it, and copy the page-file back to the RAM, and we know how much time it takes transferring several GB of data, it sure isn't instant especially using an HDD.

But why the backup? I can wait! You say. Well it's because, anything that isn't in your RAM, can't be processed by the CPU. So, your system will temporally lock up, as your RAM will be emptied. Now Windows (well Vista and up) is smart. To hide this, it will first priorities key component of the OS, related to the user interface and your interaction with the system, by transferring that, first onto your RAM, this will make it invisible to you as it’s just a few MB and everything else will follow, with some fancy algorithm on what you are currently using, and other guess work. Pretty smart. Well it's more complicated than that... But that's the essential idea.

In the old, old, days back when we had 128/256MB of RAM with XP or older, you might recall that your system, after starting a program, just becomes unresponsive for a moment (temporarily freezes), and comes back to normal. When this occurred, your system was doing this open space fragmentation.

So now you know why you should not disable page file, because if you do, and you start a new program and it doesn't fit in 1 block, well the program won't run, but rather crash at startup, and Windows will tell you "You are low in virtual memory", and then you'll open the Task Manager and look how much RAM you have free, and start scratching your head how come its a problem, while you do have the free space. The open space defragmentation process for your RAM can't occur. :)

I hope this makes it understandable of how things are going behind the scenes a bit in a brief way, at least for that aspect. If you know how it all works behind, then you'll see the price of Windows as free, as it's super complicated and huge amount of challenges to rectify and solve. And now you understand why Microsoft requires several thousands of engineers to work just on Windows, for many years. 'cause without an OS... your system is just circuit boards stuck together, that doesn't do much.

Well hope you found this helpful. :)
 
Last edited:

Jas00555

Retired Ambassador
Jun 8, 2013
2,413
0
0
Visit site
Thank you for all of that. I always enjoy learning new things and that was definitely a good read. I'm saving your post in my OneNote for future reference :D
 

Neibl

New member
Jan 30, 2011
178
0
0
Visit site
My surface Pro 2 is perfect, but the charger cable provided died after about 5 minutes of use, I went to store and they replaced no questions asked. Love the products and the Microsoft stores.
 

unstoppablekem

New member
Sep 23, 2011
8,123
0
0
Visit site
I installed that Swype keyboard clone for my surface, used it a bit, my surface crashed, diagnosing my PC, now this. I'm so worried. Help! I need help ASAP!! ImageUploadedByWPCentral Forums1383109583.814776.jpg
 

MBytes

New member
Oct 28, 2013
521
0
0
Visit site
I installed that Swype keyboard clone for my surface, used it a bit, my surface crashed, diagnosing my PC, now this. I'm so worried. Help! I need help ASAP!!

Simple. The program works by on altering system files. The software was for Windows 8, you installed it on 8.1. System file changed, and now it broke Windows. Take you system back in time, if you can... else you need to re-install your system (I am assuming that startup repair didn't work)
 

unstoppablekem

New member
Sep 23, 2011
8,123
0
0
Visit site
Simple. The program works by on altering system files. The software was for Windows 8, you installed it on 8.1. System file changed, and now it broke Windows. Take you system back in time, if you can... else you need to re-install your system (I am assuming that startup repair didn't work)

I don't have a backup. Does that mean I lost everything?
 

infer66

New member
Oct 4, 2013
2
0
0
Visit site
Well my SP2 256 arrived yesterday. I was really excited until I opened the box. The back stand is not flush with the back and the case has some chipped paint around the display surface. Booting up I find a cluster of 6-7 dead pxels in the botom midle of the screen.
I don't find the SP2 big or heavy as some reviews said. I really like the size and the weight is a non issue for me.
The screen size looks smaller than an ipads and the display is not as good as an Ipad 4. The colors are not very accurate, there is light bleeding and the viewing angles are not great. I wonder why all the reviews said that the display is great? Maybe mine is a lemon.
The cpu temp stays at 75-80 degrees when stressed. and the fans are silent.
Lots of software issues, the type 2 keayboard not always working, wifi erratic.
All in all I believe Microsoft needs to get some QC soon or the Surface Pro 2 will fail.
 

unstoppablekem

New member
Sep 23, 2011
8,123
0
0
Visit site
Well my SP2 256 arrived yesterday. I was really excited until I opened the box. The back stand is not flush with the back and the case has some chipped paint around the display surface. Booting up I find a cluster of 6-7 dead pxels in the botom midle of the screen.
I don't find the SP2 big or heavy as some reviews said. I really like the size and the weight is a non issue for me.
The screen size looks smaller than an ipads and the display is not as good as an Ipad 4. The colors are not very accurate, there is light bleeding and the viewing angles are not great. I wonder why all the reviews said that the display is great? Maybe mine is a lemon.
The cpu temp stays at 75-80 degrees when stressed. and the fans are silent.
Lots of software issues, the type 2 keayboard not always working, wifi erratic.
All in all I believe Microsoft needs to get some QC soon or the Surface Pro 2 will fail.

I suggest to tell Microsoft that it is defective, and ask for a replacement.

Oh, and thanks for joining wpcentral to share your feelings.
 

MBytes

New member
Oct 28, 2013
521
0
0
Visit site
Well my SP2 256 arrived yesterday. I was really excited until I opened the box. The back stand is not flush with the back and the case has some chipped paint around the display surface. Booting up I find a cluster of 6-7 dead pxels in the botom midle of the screen.
I don't find the SP2 big or heavy as some reviews said. I really like the size and the weight is a non issue for me.
The screen size looks smaller than an ipads and the display is not as good as an Ipad 4. The colors are not very accurate, there is light bleeding and the viewing angles are not great. I wonder why all the reviews said that the display is great? Maybe mine is a lemon.
The cpu temp stays at 75-80 degrees when stressed. and the fans are silent.
Lots of software issues, the type 2 keayboard not always working, wifi erratic.
All in all I believe Microsoft needs to get some QC soon or the Surface Pro 2 will fail.

Well it's clear a complete manufacture error.
As for color calibration, this is a bit tricky... many people are used to the wrong colors, and when they see things correct... then they see it as wrong.
This a popular effect with people passing from crappy TN LCD panel on the desktop space, to fancy high consumer grade IPS panels. Ultimately you get used to it, and then you realize how wrong your previous monitor was. But, it can also be very wrong... I don't know as I can't see what you see, and I don't have a SP2 yet.
 

unstoppablekem

New member
Sep 23, 2011
8,123
0
0
Visit site
I am going by memory here, Hit Troubleshoot, and you should have System Restore. Else post a picture please.

You want me to restore my PC and lose everything? What will happen if I press continue? I have to go in 10 minutes. If I don't get a reply by then (don't worry, I'm not mad at you), I'll pressing continue. I would like it if you reply back though.
 
Last edited:

infer66

New member
Oct 4, 2013
2
0
0
Visit site
Well it's clear a complete manufacture error.
As for color calibration, this is a bit tricky... many people are used to the wrong colors, and when they see things correct... then they see it as wrong.
This a popular effect with people passing from crappy TN LCD panel on the desktop space, to fancy high consumer grade IPS panels. Ultimately you get used to it, and then you realize how wrong your previous monitor was. But, it can also be very wrong... I don't know as I can't see what you see, and I don't have a SP2 yet.

I am a DP and also work as a architectural CGI artist, all of my monitors are color calibrated and have not looked at a TN lcd for over 10 years. Unfortunately this is an ebay unit since even though I am in EU my tiny island isn't getting the Surface anytime soon.
On the plus side I find the SP2 a great little unit and runs 3dmax, autocad and photoshop great (slow but good enough). I even get 40-50 frames at medium settings in WOW. Fitbit one works too.
Also my multicopter ground station and configuration software run just fine. Any DJI Wookong-Naza owners this is the perfect ground station on the go.

Now I need to train my brain to ignore the black spot on the screen, paint the chips and we are good to go.
 

MBytes

New member
Oct 28, 2013
521
0
0
Visit site
You want me to restore my PC and lose everything? What will happen if I press continue? I have to go in 10 minutes. If I don't get a reply by then (don't worry, I'm not mad at you), I'll pressing continue. I would like it if you reply back though.

I am want to take your system back in time to the last restore point. Meaning, right before you install that tweak program.
System Restore should not affect your files.
 

unstoppablekem

New member
Sep 23, 2011
8,123
0
0
Visit site
I am want to take your system back in time to the last restore point. Meaning, right before you install that tweak program.
System Restore should not affect your files.

When I left, I pressed turn off your pc. When I turned it back on, it went to the regular menu and everything was fine. I deleted all the files I could from that keyboard thing.
 

unstoppablekem

New member
Sep 23, 2011
8,123
0
0
Visit site
I am a DP and also work as a architectural CGI artist, all of my monitors are color calibrated and have not looked at a TN lcd for over 10 years. Unfortunately this is an ebay unit since even though I am in EU my tiny island isn't getting the Surface anytime soon.
On the plus side I find the SP2 a great little unit and runs 3dmax, autocad and photoshop great (slow but good enough). I even get 40-50 frames at medium settings in WOW. Fitbit one works too.
Also my multicopter ground station and configuration software run just fine. Any DJI Wookong-Naza owners this is the perfect ground station on the go.

Now I need to train my brain to ignore the black spot on the screen, paint the chips and we are good to go.

I think you can contact the seller and tell him about this. If he doesn't listen, there is an ebay buyer protection thing that can help.
 

Jas00555

Retired Ambassador
Jun 8, 2013
2,413
0
0
Visit site
I am want to take your system back in time to the last restore point. Meaning, right before you install that tweak program.
System Restore should not affect your files.

couldn't he also just "refresh" his surface? Doesn't that just reinstall windows while keeping your files?
 

Jas00555

Retired Ambassador
Jun 8, 2013
2,413
0
0
Visit site
My only problem so far has been after I installed an update, everytime I press the power button (just press, not hold. Like I touch it for 1ms) to put it in standby, then click it again, my surface restarts. I'll wait to see if an update comes to fix this.
 

Members online

Forum statistics

Threads
323,300
Messages
2,243,596
Members
428,055
Latest member
DrPendragon