Galaxy Note 10 Deal: BOGO at Verizon!
04-15-2015 06:02 AM
83 123 ...
tools
  1. Ruined's Avatar
    I am posting this as both a complaint due to my disappointment with the Surface Pro 3 i5 256gb/8gb RAM I returned yesterday, as well as a warning.

    The Surface Pro 3 is not a good choice for professional software (i.e. DAW, encoding, etc) I bought it for or games that rely on sustained load capability. With sustained load, the i7 slows down to i3 speeds in short order. The Surface Pro 2 did not do this. Even simple Windows 8 store games run faster on my ASUS T100TA (Atom Z3740, 2GB RAM) than my Surface Pro 3 (i5 4300U, 8GB RAM) on battery due to aggressive throttling.

    While the Surface Pro 3 is an ergonomic blessing, in my opinion the higher end CPUs are a bit of a ripoff - unlike the Surface Pro 2, they cannot hold sustained load without throttling down. They may offer slightly faster burst performance, but I am not sure this is worth it for hundreds of dollars more. The $799 Surface Pro 3 is really all I can recommend for people, or the $999 if they really need the extra HD space - because you aren't going to get the most out of the CPU.

    This video explains the issue technically using the i7 Surface Pro 3, but it affects the i5 as well - buyer beware!
    youtube.com/watch?v=HKh7_9dXYFo


    And below, a post explaining the inconsistent experience Surface Pro 3 offers that makes it a bad choice for pro software:
    Returning The Surface Pro 3 - Podcast and Blog Posts -

    I agree that the $799 Surface Pro 3 is a stunning value and fantastic choice, just be aware you are not getting all that you pay for with faster CPU options. Personally, I believe this is because the Surface Pro 3 chassis/cooling appears it was designed for the more efficient Intel Broadwell CPU which was delayed significantly, likely resulting in the team shoehorning the old Haswell processors into the case with aggressive throttling to make up for it.
    Last edited by Ruined; 08-04-2014 at 12:44 PM.
    xandros9, acsn, omegafiler and 1 others like this.
    08-04-2014 12:31 PM
  2. boo516's Avatar
    No Offense, there have been about 5 threads discussing this. Just look below or search next time.
    08-04-2014 01:10 PM
  3. Daniel Rubino's Avatar
    Also, now that we actually have DATA about the Core i7 version, as opposed to, you know, guessing it'd be the same as the Core i5, the Core i7 appears to throttle less (via Reddit)

    vpyjdss.png

    Regardless, this whole topic is blown out of proportion, imo.
    rdubmu, aximtreo, calfee20 and 5 others like this.
    08-04-2014 03:39 PM
  4. theefman's Avatar
    Its only money, I'm happy with my i5/256. :)
    rdubmu and BGrewer like this.
    08-04-2014 03:46 PM
  5. nasellok's Avatar
    Well, my i7 256GB that i picked up on Friday has been stellar so far. It is doing tasks significantly faster than my 3 year old Desktop computer in my office............HP Z600 Workstation with Xeon E5620 @ 2.4ghx, with 8GB of RAM, and Nvidia Quadro 2000 GPU.

    I am an Architect, and I dont really care about benchmarks.......so i made my own using the most graphically intense software (other than a game) that I would be using (note - I do not do renderings, I do 3D models, but no lighting / effects - those are all done by consultants):

    Booting Revit 2014 with nothing running:
    SP3 = 14 seconds
    Z600 = 48 seconds

    Opening and converting a 200MB Revit file from Revit 2013 to Revit 2014
    SP3 = 13 mins
    Z600 = 20 mins

    Those are pretty good returns to me.............Considering the PC costed 3g's when my office bought it, its a desktop computer, and the SP3 is technically a tablet, and costed half as much $
    Last edited by nasellok; 08-07-2014 at 09:04 AM.
    08-04-2014 03:58 PM
  6. Ruined's Avatar
    Also, now that we actually have DATA about the Core i7 version, as opposed to, you know, guessing it'd be the same as the Core i5, the Core i7 appears to throttle less (via Reddit)

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	vpYJdSS.png 
Views:	200 
Size:	548.7 KB 
ID:	75158

    Regardless, this whole topic is blown out of proportion, imo.
    Hi Daniel,
    Thank you for the additional info - I am aware that the i7 version throttles less with Intel XTU, but it still throttles down to i3 level under heavy load as evidenced by the video in the OP.

    I am not trying to blow anything out of proportion, just alert people that the Surface Pro 3 does not perform as consistently as the Surface Pro 2 with the same CPU. I personally bought this both for personal and professional use, and while it is good on the personal side I felt that I was getting less than advertised performance on the professional side. While this might be able to be resolved with firmware, I was approaching the return window and did not want to be stuck with something that did not live up to the advertised specs for more than a few minutes of action. I agree that the average joe would might not notice this (although on the i5 even basic Windows 8 store games were being throttled into stuttery performance on battery), but for those that are buying the more expensive flavors I believe this is something one needs to know before buying into it. I know I would not have bought into it if I knew the performance was throttled to half of Surface Pro 2's performance.

    It is a shame because ergonomically the Surface Pro 3 is amazing. Hopefully a firmware fix can improve the i5's throttling to be more like the i7's, but I think this form factor will not truly shine until Broadwell is available.
    badMojo69 and omegafiler like this.
    08-04-2014 05:06 PM
  7. onlysublime's Avatar
    you are trying to blow it out of proportion by creating an entirely new thread when other threads already talk about it.

    none of this is set in stone. Microsoft can and has changed system behavior through firmware. I'm sure as they get more data in, they'll adjust the settings. Right now, the SP3 does not generate as much heat as an SP2. Most likely because they wanted to ensure a smooth launch. Nothing worse than a bunch of SP3's crashing due to overheating issues. Microsoft has been burned in the past (look at the initial Xbox 360 launch with RROD).

    Is it a big issue? Who knows. It hasn't received a lot of press so apparently the masses don't think so. It's just a vocal minority that's speaking about it.
    Peter England likes this.
    08-04-2014 10:42 PM
  8. briandwilliams68's Avatar
    You might want to dig deeper than a reddit posting. Cameron from cbutters actually followed up that posting with an explanation that his cooler office at work led to improved results. Once he brought his i7 SP3 back home, and tested it in the same conditions as his old i5, it exhibited the same problem. Since this is my first posting, I cannot post a link, but Google "Re: Surface Pro 3 - The problems thread tabletpcreview" and jump to page 67.

    This is being marketed as a laptop replacement, worthy of professional and gamer use. The performance offered is only good for moments at a time, and to me, that's not worth hundreds of dollars more. In fact, you can practically buy two i3 models for the price of the i7. Hopefully Microsoft will release a firmware fix soon.
    08-04-2014 10:44 PM
  9. sectime's Avatar
    What kind of programmer would buy a tablet spec low voltage I7 and expect it to run like a desktop with discrete GPU?? Sell/return it buy something else. Right tool for the job,Thanks for the warning
    mjohn222 likes this.
    08-04-2014 11:44 PM
  10. Ruined's Avatar
    What kind of programmer would buy a tablet spec low voltage I7 and expect it to run like a desktop with discrete GPU?? Sell/return it buy something else. Right tool for the job,Thanks for the warning
    The Surface Pro 3 does not use a tablet spec low voltage i7 - that is the i7-4610y. Instead, the Surface Pro 3 uses the ultrabook-class i7-4650u, but it apparently does not have the cooling to handle said CPU.

    Also, the Surface Pro 2 used similar i5/i7 CPUs and did not have this aggressive throttling, perhaps due to its thicker case. Surface Pro 2 set the ultrabook performance precedent even with intensive tasks, Surface Pro 3 is not living up to it so far. This could change in time with firmware, or not.
    08-05-2014 12:07 AM
  11. briandwilliams68's Avatar
    What kind of programmer would buy a tablet spec low voltage I7 and expect it to run like a desktop with discrete GPU?? Sell/return it buy something else. Right tool for the job,Thanks for the warning
    Who said I bought it expecting it to act like a desktop with a discrete GPU. I expect it to run to spec, not under spec... not for that sort of money. The MacBook Air does not have this problem. Apple positions this as your next laptop replacement, not your netbook replacement.
    08-05-2014 12:18 AM
  12. stephen_az's Avatar
    The Surface Pro 3 does not use a tablet spec low voltage i7 - that is the i7-4610y. Instead, the Surface Pro 3 uses the ultrabook-class i7-4650u, but it apparently does not have the cooling to handle said CPU.

    Also, the Surface Pro 2 used similar i5/i7 CPUs and did not have this aggressive throttling, perhaps due to its thicker case. Surface Pro 2 set the ultrabook performance precedent even with intensive tasks, Surface Pro 3 is not living up to it so far. This could change in time with firmware, or not.
    I am confused. So what did you buy? You go on and on about the i7 model but say you returned the i5. You then follow in this post with a reference to SP2s using similar i5/i7 CPUs. I would love to see that SP2 with an i7 given they never made it. Of course you also toss in some laughable exaggeration about things running faster on an Atom device. If that really was the case perhaps you might have wanted to consider an exchange since the device was obviously defective. Yes, I also do have an Atom tablet (Dell Venue 11 Pro) which I am setting up for the office and there is nothing for which it is even close in performance. No offense but whenever I see these posts I wonder why the person even bought the device. It seems more like it was bought for the opportunity to complain based upon other internet posts and then return.

    As for the i5 throttling in the SP3, I have experienced no difference in performance between the i5 SP2 and i5 SP3 using CPU intensive Adobe CC applications (more bloated than ever) and ESRI's ArcGIS (as inefficient a piece of software one is likely to find). I can't speak to the subject of games because I don't play them and would be hard pressed to care less. As for work applications, it matches or slightly beats SP2. The only thing that initially slowed it down is the same that has slowed every machine for me since Windows 7. I have thousands of files, including some quite massive ones, that search had to index and (as always) it intermittently killed system performance. Actually that has been a problem since Vista which has only been minimally addressed over the years. Search occasionally draws heavily on the CPU while indexing large/complicated files (or high volumes of files) and does not always release the CPU to other applications as it is designed to do. I expect some other out of box setup elements also still initially hit performance but I haven't bothered to check since the search impact is obvious.

    BTW, Microsoft has adjusted CPU optimization with the previous models. Why express ambivalence about whether they will do the same with this device? While I still find the WiFi issues to be a nuisance, even more so since they were created by the update on my SP3, it is hardly the case that Microsoft has been slow in supporting the device. There have already been hardware driver updates and a bona fide firmware update as well. Compare that, and the regularity of updates on all the Surface models Including the ones that have been out for a couple years, to any other hardware manufacturer. There are no rose colored glasses needed when it comes to the subject of future updates.
    08-05-2014 02:55 AM
  13. Dan Strong1's Avatar
    Also, now that we actually have DATA about the Core i7 version, as opposed to, you know, guessing it'd be the same as the Core i5, the Core i7 appears to throttle less (via Reddit)

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	vpYJdSS.png 
Views:	200 
Size:	548.7 KB 
ID:	75158

    Regardless, this whole topic is blown out of proportion, imo.
    Not really... The i7 is a **** ton of money more than the i3 and some are being throttled down to 800mhz!! I was listening to a podcast and the guy returned his Pro 3 because he was getting stuttering while editing voice and video. He said his Pro 2 had no such problems.

    The i3 is looking pretty damn good right now in terms of performance and price.
    08-05-2014 04:40 AM
  14. David P2's Avatar
    You could always go poking in the Power Saver settings and setting it to 'high performance' (so the CPU is forced to max all the time) - if it still throttles, then there is definitely something obscure going on.
    08-05-2014 04:48 AM
  15. ttxzee's Avatar
    You could always go poking in the Power Saver settings and setting it to 'high performance' (so the CPU is forced to max all the time) - if it still throttles, then there is definitely something obscure going on.
    I think the pro 3 just doesn't dissipate heat efficient enough, the CPU gets so hot it throttles itself. For the old pros you can feel the hot air pushed out by the fans, but for the pro 3, you can only hear the louder fan and feel the back getting hot, there's not enough air flow!
    David P2 likes this.
    08-05-2014 05:09 AM
  16. sectime's Avatar
    The Surface Pro 3 does not use a tablet spec low voltage i7 - that is the i7-4610y. Instead, the Surface Pro 3 uses the ultrabook-class i7-4650u, but it apparently does not have the cooling to handle said CPU.

    Also, the Surface Pro 2 used similar i5/i7 CPUs and did not have this aggressive throttling, perhaps due to its thicker case. Surface Pro 2 set the ultrabook performance precedent even with intensive tasks, Surface Pro 3 is not living up to it so far. This could change in time with firmware, or not.
    What I meant to type was a low voltage I7 in a tablet spec. Also where can I buy an I7 SP2? Also confused about the I3 being ok, what happens when one runs the same programs on the I3 that caused the throttling on the I7?
    Who said I bought it expecting it to act like a desktop with a discrete GPU. I expect it to run to spec, not under spec... not for that sort of money. The MacBook Air does not have this problem. Apple positions this as your next laptop replacement, not your netbook replacement.
    Cause gaming is a Macbook Air strong point, along with the screen quality. I guess the SP3 is running as designed with the thermal management so it is in spec, just not what you want/need. Two very different things. Your last sentence makes no sense.
    mjohn222 likes this.
    08-05-2014 09:36 AM
  17. stephen_az's Avatar
    I am posting this as both a complaint due to my disappointment with the Surface Pro 3 i5 256gb/8gb RAM I returned yesterday, as well as a warning.

    The Surface Pro 3 is not a good choice for professional software (i.e. DAW, encoding, etc) I bought it for or games that rely on sustained load capability. With sustained load, the i7 slows down to i3 speeds in short order. The Surface Pro 2 did not do this. Even simple Windows 8 store games run faster on my ASUS T100TA (Atom Z3740, 2GB RAM) than my Surface Pro 3 (i5 4300U, 8GB RAM) on battery due to aggressive throttling.

    While the Surface Pro 3 is an ergonomic blessing, in my opinion the higher end CPUs are a bit of a ripoff - unlike the Surface Pro 2, they cannot hold sustained load without throttling down. They may offer slightly faster burst performance, but I am not sure this is worth it for hundreds of dollars more. The $799 Surface Pro 3 is really all I can recommend for people, or the $999 if they really need the extra HD space - because you aren't going to get the most out of the CPU.

    This video explains the issue technically using the i7 Surface Pro 3, but it affects the i5 as well - buyer beware!
    youtube.com/watch?v=HKh7_9dXYFo


    And below, a post explaining the inconsistent experience Surface Pro 3 offers that makes it a bad choice for pro software:
    Returning The Surface Pro 3 - Podcast and Blog Posts -

    I agree that the $799 Surface Pro 3 is a stunning value and fantastic choice, just be aware you are not getting all that you pay for with faster CPU options. Personally, I believe this is because the Surface Pro 3 chassis/cooling appears it was designed for the more efficient Intel Broadwell CPU which was delayed significantly, likely resulting in the team shoehorning the old Haswell processors into the case with aggressive throttling to make up for it.
    Yes, and I could have posted a video of how SP2 would overheat and shut down under normal use. Of course I had forgot to turn it off and it was sitting in a car in Phoenix in June. Point being this video is not demonstrating real parameters or confirming a controlled environment and any video that starts by saying why you shouldn't buy something and stresses you are wasting your money pretty much establishes an agenda out of the gate.
    k72 likes this.
    08-05-2014 11:16 AM
  18. briandwilliams68's Avatar
    Guys, there are new findings. Cameron found that with a simple box fan blowing on his Surface Pro 3, he can get full performance.

    And for those of you saying that an artificial benchmark like Prime 95 is not a valid test, here are my results with Diablo 3, sitting idle, dropping from 47 to 25 frames per second in a matter of six and a half minutes. The frame rate drops even more severely if you are actually playing the game with lots of targets up.

    youtu.be / taGIWm-9WPU (still won't let me post links yet)

    Would you pay almost $1600 for a device that plays a low-spec game no better than a device costing half it's price? No one is saying the Surface Pro 3 is a failure, just that the i7 edition is a waste of money. The i5 gets you real performance you can feel day-to-day with more storage. Because of the throttling, the i7 won't give you more beyond that.
    08-05-2014 12:41 PM
  19. Blacklac's Avatar
    I mean, there's a reason gaming rigs have over the top cooling. Lets keep this in perspective.
    calfee20 and k72 like this.
    08-05-2014 12:49 PM
  20. Cruncher04's Avatar
    It was a stupid idea to put an core i processor into such an small form factor device. This includes the i3 as well. It is east math to show, that the TDP of the Haswell processors at nominal clock frequency are far above the possible thermal dissipation possible with this form factor.
    It certainly gets even worse, when you give the GPU something to do.
    08-05-2014 02:04 PM
  21. David P2's Avatar
    It was a stupid idea to put an core i processor into such an small form factor device. This includes the i3 as well. It is east math to show, that the TDP of the Haswell processors at nominal clock frequency are far above the possible thermal dissipation possible with this form factor.
    It certainly gets even worse, when you give the GPU something to do.
    And why ARM processors are more popular in small portable devices.
    08-05-2014 03:14 PM
  22. Ruined's Avatar
    Guys, there are new findings. Cameron found that with a simple box fan blowing on his Surface Pro 3, he can get full performance.

    And for those of you saying that an artificial benchmark like Prime 95 is not a valid test, here are my results with Diablo 3, sitting idle, dropping from 47 to 25 frames per second in a matter of six and a half minutes. The frame rate drops even more severely if you are actually playing the game with lots of targets up.

    youtu.be / taGIWm-9WPU (still won't let me post links yet)

    Would you pay almost $1600 for a device that plays a low-spec game no better than a device costing half it's price? No one is saying the Surface Pro 3 is a failure, just that the i7 edition is a waste of money. The i5 gets you real performance you can feel day-to-day with more storage. Because of the throttling, the i7 won't give you more beyond that.
    Exactly, the i5/i7 even throttle playing Minecraft, nevermind professional applications like DAW software.

    I can see the options under $1000 being a good buy for consumer use, the higher end models I think are more marketing than they are performance. And the marketing is working, I see a lot of people buying $1299+ options despite the fact that once you put that power to heavy use you get i3 performance. I would rather buy a 799 surface pro 3 now (or wait entirely), then spend big bucks when the real deal comes out (surface w/ broadwell).

    Thread is just here to inform those trying to decide whether its worth it spending big bucks for the high end configurations - in my and several others opinion, no. What is the point of paying for a high end CPU if it performs like the low end CPU once its actually put to real work (as opposed to web surfing and office, which the cheaper i3 can handle fine)?

    If Microsoft wants the Surface Pro 3 to be taken seriously by creative professionals which they appear to be aiming at, they either need to release firmware that greatly reduces the throttling or release a Broadwell refresh ASAP. Pro software where timing is critical does not respond well to up-down-up-down CPU clocking Ping-Pong. Again, note that Surface Pro 2 does not suffer from these issues.
    08-05-2014 05:07 PM
  23. WillysJeepMan's Avatar
    Exactly, the i5/i7 even throttle playing Minecraft, nevermind professional applications like DAW software.

    I can see the options under $1000 being a good buy for consumer use, the higher end models I think are more marketing than they are performance. And the marketing is working, I see a lot of people buying $1299+ options despite the fact that once you put that power to heavy use you get i3 performance. I would rather buy a 799 surface pro 3 now (or wait entirely), then spend big bucks when the real deal comes out (surface w/ broadwell).

    Thread is just here to inform those trying to decide whether its worth it spending big bucks for the high end configurations - in my and several others opinion, no. What is the point of paying for a high end CPU if it performs like the low end CPU once its actually put to real work (as opposed to web surfing and office, which the cheaper i3 can handle fine)?

    If Microsoft wants the Surface Pro 3 to be taken seriously by creative professionals which they appear to be aiming at, they either need to release firmware that greatly reduces the throttling or release a Broadwell refresh ASAP. Pro software where timing is critical does not respond well to up-down-up-down CPU clocking Ping-Pong. Again, note that Surface Pro 2 does not suffer from these issues.
    I don't play Minecraft, but I have read in various places that Minecraft can require significant system resources to run well. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that it can tax a system more than a general workflow for creative professionals.

    I think that part of the consumer expectation disconnect can be attributed to over-aggressive marketing claims (implied or explicit) for the SP3. For professionals, the i5/i7 SP3 devices offer unprecedented portability that can be the difference between doing some preliminary work in the field and waiting to return to the office. For that purpose, I think that the SP3 hits the mark.
    08-05-2014 05:30 PM
  24. Mr. Brown's Avatar
    I'm calling bull on stating that the i7 drops to performance levels of the i3.

    I happened to have an SP3 i3, i5, and i7 that I decided to test with. I ran some very basic tests from the following site.

    HTML5 Fish Bowl

    My first disclaimer is this. I made a custom resolution for all of the SP3s to be at 1440x960 59Hz because I don't like the scaling that happens in desktop mode when hooking up my larger monitors. The lower resolution makes a significant difference in the amount of fish that will be on the screen while maintaining 60Fps.

    Basically I just told it to use the auto amount of fish. So the systems would put as many fish on the screen that it possibly could and still maintain 60Fps. I ran the test using Metro IE with nothing else running. Here are the results.

    i7 High - 650 Fish
    i7 Low - 450 Fish after running for 30 min.

    i5 High - 550 Fish
    i5 Low - 350 Fish after running for 30 min.

    i3 High - 390 Fish
    i3 Low - 220 Fish after running for about 30 min.

    So I know from personal experience that even when the i7 throttles down and the cpu is cranking, it is still performing better than the i3 when it is cool. I also know that the i7 is still performing better than the i5. So that is what helped me decide to keep the i7 and return the i5. I'm keeping the i3 just for fun since I don't like to unplug my i7 all the time. I personally would probably be ok with the i3 if it came with more storage and more ram.
    08-05-2014 05:48 PM
  25. Ruined's Avatar
    I don't play Minecraft, but I have read in various places that Minecraft can require significant system resources to run well. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that it can tax a system more than a general workflow for creative professionals.

    I think that part of the consumer expectation disconnect can be attributed to over-aggressive marketing claims (implied or explicit) for the SP3. For professionals, the i5/i7 SP3 devices offer unprecedented portability that can be the difference between doing some preliminary work in the field and waiting to return to the office. For that purpose, I think that the SP3 hits the mark.
    Creative professionals often use software such as Sonar or Premiere which required sustained high CPU loads. If you are using a number of virtual instruments and effects on Sonar, then your CPU just decides to cut power in half, lets just say your song is not going to sound very good. With Premiere or other video encoding applications, you may get stuttering or other video anomalies as the processor struggles to keep up.

    Once again, if you are just using SP3 for web or Office, then yes you will not have throttling problems. But if you are just using it for web or office, why in the world do you need a high end CPU? Web and office run great on Intel Atom Bay Trail, nevermind Core series (core i3 is fine for this application). And that is the issue, what value you are getting for those high end CPUs when their performance is cut just when you really need it?
    Last edited by Ruined; 08-05-2014 at 06:09 PM.
    08-05-2014 05:57 PM
83 123 ...

Similar Threads

  1. L2TP VPN now supported in the update
    By incubusdrives in forum Update 1 for Windows Phone 8.1 (GDR1)
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 08-06-2014, 07:09 PM
  2. can't connect my phone with my pc anymore
    By jtphl in forum Update 1 for Windows Phone 8.1 (GDR1)
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 08-06-2014, 11:09 AM
  3. Folders in Windows 8.1 GDR1
    By msalmank in forum Update 1 for Windows Phone 8.1 (GDR1)
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 08-04-2014, 04:34 PM
  4. Otg cable support in wp 8.1
    By Parag Nema in forum Ask a Question
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-04-2014, 03:08 PM
  5. Start screen wallpapers in WP Central News.
    By MAHER_Central in forum Ask a Question
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-04-2014, 12:03 PM
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD