N-triq over Wacom kills the Pro 3 for me.

[gibbage]

Im an artist, and a LOT of my fellow artist's love the Pro 2 for its Wacom support. Watching the Surface 3 presentation was getting me REALLY excited! 12", 2160 x 1440 resolution, and the 3/2 aspect ratio? It all seems PERFECT! Then it all goes down in flames. N-triq pen over Wacom?

First, N-triq pen's use batteries. Typically AAA. Heavier pen. Not cool. The added weight interferes with your strokes and precision.

Second, N-triq is limited to 256lvl's of pressure sensitivity. This KILLS it for me. I used a cheap digitizer before with 256, and its HORRIBLE. Its a huge downgrade from the Pro-2's 1024!

This fact alone kills the Pro 3 for any professional. Any other artist's out there thats looking at the Pro-3 needs to be aware of the 256lvl of pressure sensitivity.

 

[StevoPhilo]

I'm open to any pen design for Photoshop, but the fact that I know the N-trig has never been reliable for Photoshop makes me worried.

256 ppl isn't very attractive when we have 2048 from wacom cintiqs and 1024 from the previous iterations of Surface Pros. I think this is the biggest issue that I have. PPL is DRASTICALLY lower.

 

[bilzkh]

Welcome to the world of Microsoft Logic, the self-destructive planning that has plagued this company since the dawn of the iPhone. Let's totally ignore the freakin' realities of the market and push something that makes sense to NO ONE.

Here they are pushing the Surface Pro 3 to creative professionals, yet they omit the industry standard bearer Wacom (which they had on SP and SP2) for the sake of NTrig. Why? Who knows, but it wouldn't surprise me if they were bent on that click to OneNote thing...

So this thing is neither an accessible note-taking device for most people OR an exceptionally capable device for specialists. Seriously Microsoft, WTH!?

If it were up to me I would have kept Wacom on the Surface Pro 3 series and kept the base model with Core i5, 4GB RAM and 128GB SSD for $999. Below that I would have had a Surface 3 with Core i3, 64GB eMMC, 1080p resolution and N-Trig, for the average user (especially students), start it at $599.

 

[a5cent]

a) N-triq pen's use batteries. Typically AAA. Heavier pen. Not cool. The added weight interferes with your strokes and precision.
b) N-triq is limited to 256 lvl's of pressure sensitivity. This KILLS it for me. I used a cheap digitizer before with 256, and its HORRIBLE.

Wouldn't it make sense to test it before ripping it?

N-trig pens may typically have heavy AAA batteries, but does this? The cheaper digitizer you once used may have been horrible, but does that automatically mean this one is also of the cheaper variety? Just to be clear, I know absolutely nothing about artist's requirements insofar as pressure sensitivity is concerned. However, I do know that many people end up associating certain properties to certain technical specs, where there just isn't any real relationship at all.

I won't list all the examples. Instead I'll just ask if it could have been, that your poor experience with the cheap 256 step digitizer was mainly a result of it being cheap, and not a result of the pressure sensitivity itself? I have no idea. I could be way off. I'm just saying it might make sense to objectively test this stuff before jumping to conclusions... particularly if negative reactions are triggered primarily by a brand name and not by experience using the product.

 

[bilzkh]

Wouldn't it make sense to test it before ripping it?

N-triq pens may typically have AAA batteries, but does this? The cheaper digitizer you once used may have been horrible, but does that automatically mean this one is also of the cheaper variety? Just to be clear, I know absolutely nothing about artist's requirements insofar as pressure sensitivity is concerned. However, I do know that many people end up associating certain properties to certain technical specs, where there just isn't any real relationship at all.

I'll won't list all the examples. Instead I'll just ask if it could have been, that your poor experience with the cheap 256 step digitizer was mainly a result of it being cheap, and not a result of the pressure sensitivity itself? I have no idea. I could be way off. I'm just saying it might make sense to objectively test this stuff before jumping to conclusions... particularly if negative reactions are triggered primarily by a brand name and not by experience using the product.

The way I look at it is that IF artists and creative professionals prefer using Wacom *over* the N-Trig and Synaptics solutions of *today*, then it'd be best to stick to Wacom IF the goal were to entice creative pros. Honestly I think N-Trig is great for note-taking, writing and basic pen work that involve people needing to sketch and produce diagrams, but having to offer all Pro 3s with N-Trig isn't a good idea.

At the minimum Microsoft should at least offer a Surface Pro 3 model with Wacom, they could even brand it as a different category (one geared to creative professionals more so than say lawyers and students).

From a marketing standpoint, time is precious, and one cannot afford any form of negative perception (informed or otherwise). As far as I am concerned the Surface Pro 3 is going to be seen as a letdown for creative pros, it lacks Wacom.

 

[StevoPhilo]

Wouldn't it make sense to test it before ripping it?

N-triq pens may typically have AAA batteries, but does this? The cheaper digitizer you once used may have been horrible, but does that automatically mean this one is also of the cheaper variety? Just to be clear, I know absolutely nothing about artist's requirements insofar as pressure sensitivity is concerned. However, I do know that many people end up associating certain properties to certain technical specs, where there just isn't any real relationship at all.

I'll won't list all the examples. Instead I'll just ask if it could have been, that your poor experience with the cheap 256 step digitizer was mainly a result of it being cheap, and not a result of the pressure sensitivity itself? I have no idea. I could be way off. I'm just saying it might make sense to objectively test this stuff before jumping to conclusions... particularly if negative reactions are triggered primarily by a brand name and not by experience using the product.

That's why I want to try it out before I jump off my original pro to a pro 3. I think the biggest issue is pen pressure sensitivity. The more you have the more details you can get with tones.

Now another thing is that 2048 use to be an issue with some people just cause it can be too sensitive, but you could control that with Wacom drivers.
Even if it went down to about 512 I would be more open minded.

256 is used on entry level Wacoms and 4 year old technology.

Too early to tell though. I just won't get my hopes up.

 

[StevoPhilo]

The way I look at it is that IF artists and creative professionals prefer using Wacom *over* the N-Trig and Synaptics solutions of *today*, then it'd be best to stick to Wacom IF the goal were to entice creative pros. Honestly I think N-Trig is great for note-taking, writing and basic pen work that involve people needing to sketch and produce diagrams, but having to offer all Pro 3s with N-Trig isn't a good idea.

At the minimum Microsoft should at least offer a Surface Pro 3 model with Wacom, they could even brand it as a different category (one geared to creative professionals more so than say lawyers and students).

I think this is the issue. Microsoft is trying to cater to EVERYONE. Unfortunate for us artist and graphic designers we are a minority to them.

 

[bilzkh]

I think this is the issue. Microsoft is trying to cater to EVERYONE. Unfortunate for us artist and graphic designers we are a minority to them.

Exactly. IMHO this N-Trig technology should have been used on a Surface 3, something cheaper than the Pro and better suited to students, general professionals, etc. That or a Surface Pro 3 model with Wacom should be made available.

 

[neonspark]

hmm. good points. this is bad news indeed. Then again I think they are just trying to keep the price point in line. Don't feel too down however. Remember you really want the intel broadwell chips of 2015 which will ship with SP4 so the best thing to do is let MSFT know the "compromise" isn't acceptable.

 

[StevoPhilo]

hmm. good points. this is bad news indeed. Then again I think they are just trying to keep the price point in line. Don't feel too down however. Remember you really want the intel broadwell chips of 2015 which will ship with SP4 so the best thing to do is let MSFT know the "compromise" isn't acceptable.

I noticed that too. It still has 4th gen. By the time it releases (which on the web for the i7 edition it's 8/31/2014) the broadwells will be out and make the SP3 look even more overpriced.

 

[a5cent]

The way I look at it is that IF artists and creative professionals prefer using Wacom *over* the N-Trig and Synaptics solutions of *today*, then it'd be best to stick to Wacom IF the goal were to entice creative pros.

It's impossible to argue with that. Let's just be clear that you are making a marketing argument, not a technical argument. This is a consumer tech site, and as such, it should help potential buyers cut through the marketing BS. A lot of that BS is based on brand recognition and gimmicky specs. I suspect you creative types can't even rely on the typical tech review sites, as they likely know as much about artists requirements as I do.

Disclaimer (I just know someone will misinterpret my posts without this):
I'm not saying the SP3's digitizer is great and everything is perfect. It very well might be garbage. I don't know.

 

[StevoPhilo]

Wacom is the lead when it comes to graphic arts. There is no notable competition WORTH using cause nothing is as big as them.

Yiynova as a small company supposedly has better pen pressure, but their drivers are kind of gimmicky. I would feel better if they used a Yiynova pen. N-Trig has ALWAYS been gimmicky. Hopefully this new one makes Wacom look like crap. Wacom needs some big competition for them to lower their insane prices anyhow.

 

[Aaron Chow]

I have a friend who works at Wacom and I asked the same question. He mentions that Wacom doesn't allow Microsoft to add the "OneNote" button because this will affect their sales of their product. So it seems like this is more of a political issue than a technical issue.

 

[a5cent]

Wacom is the lead when it comes to graphic arts. There is no notable competition WORTH using cause nothing is as big as them.

The best is always overpriced. That's the reward you get for being the best. The ability to overcharge. ;-)

I just took a short look at the product unveiling. I noticed MS had a guy from the Adobe Photoshop team on stage, praising the device. The representative explicitly mentioned how well it tracks and works for artistic purposes. Of course this is all just marketing that shouldn't be taken at face value either, but being in an artists shoes, that would give me at least some hope that it isn't as bad as some expect.

 

[Giddora]

Where exactly do you get the information on what technology they use for the pen?

 

[Great deal]

Hands-on with the Surface Pro 3 from Microsoft, an ultrathin tablet with a stellar screen | Windows Phone Central

 

[Narr]

Panos specifically said this was NOT a stylus but a pen, that's why it's fatter and has the same weight as a normal pen; for note taking. The whole creative community must be quite a small component of the potential number that will ever buy a Surface device so seems a better decision to focus on note taking.

 

[WillysJeepMan]

Panos specifically said this was NOT a stylus but a pen, that's why it's fatter and has the same weight as a normal pen; for note taking. The whole creative community must be quite a small component of the potential number that will ever buy a Surface device so seems a better decision to focus on note taking.

That was nothing more than corporate double-speak. Panay was going on about how it has weight to it, feels substantial... LOL He also talked about how air is moved through the chassis without feeling it, and how there's no fan sound, but gave the impression that there was no fan. It was cringe-worthy.

 

[gibbage]

Wouldn't it make sense to test it before ripping it?

My first digitizer was a cheap Wacom knockoff. It has 256lvl's of pressure. It drove me up a wall! I got a Wacom Intous 2, and it was light years better. The pen was very well balanced, and the pressure sensitivity is really noticeable when your paining gradients using pressure to choose shade or opacity. So I have used 256PPL before, and thats what im basing my "hell no" opinion on. 256 simply is NOT enough in Photoshop or Zbrush.

 

[Bora777]

I have a friend who works at Wacom and I asked the same question. He mentions that Wacom doesn't allow Microsoft to add the "OneNote" button because this will affect their sales of their product. So it seems like this is more of a political issue than a technical issue.

That does make quite a bit of sense. My first thought when I saw how the SP3's new kickstand goes all the way down, combined with the enlarged size and Adobe's updated CC, was "they just rendered the Cintiq Companion obsolete". This was before I learned they had switched to N-trig, of course.

But even then, one has to consider the massive price difference between the SP3 and the Cintiq Companion which, apart from the Wacom bits, is an all-round inferior piece of kit for an obscene amount of money. As an industrial designer, the sensitivity advantage of the Wacom is not as important to me as it is to perhaps an artist or a graphic designer since I use the pen for rendering in PS and sketching in Sketchbook Pro.

Furthermore, like me, many serious designers or artists would already have a primary Wacom device (my Intuos Pro is not going anywhere) so from my point of view the slightly reduced sensitivity of what would be my secondary creative device doesn't bother me so much, taking into account the barrage of nifty improvements they've thrown at it.