As Apple races to catch up to OpenAI and Copilot on the iPhone, it's apparently turning to Google over Microsoft

naddy69

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"The distribution advantage Google has today doesn’t go away; in fact, if anything, I worry a lot that – even in spite of my enthusiasm that there is a new angle with A.I., this vicious cycle that I’m trapped in could get even more vicious,"

Drama much? :rolleyes:

What "vicious cycle" is he talking about? The one where MS and Apple go back and forth being The World's Most Valuable Company?

As we have seen, so-called "A.I." is nothing but a toy for consumers to play with. Much like "smart speakers" were 5 years ago. It is shaping up to be the biggest hype - and biggest dud - since Y2K.

Also, Apple does not "race to catch up" to anyone. They sit back and watch, to see if "the new thing" is worthwhile and/or the technology matures. Like dual screen/folding screen phones.

"A.I." in its current state is not worth rushing into. A smart company would wait until the dust - not to mention the lawsuits - settles. Meanwhile, use it for small things like photo editing. Generating huge amounts of meaningless Word Salad from copyrighted works and fake nude pictures of celebrities is only interesting to lawyers.
 

Laxman Dhotre

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"The distribution advantage Google has today doesn’t go away; in fact, if anything, I worry a lot that – even in spite of my enthusiasm that there is a new angle with A.I., this vicious cycle that I’m trapped in could get even more vicious,"

Drama much? :rolleyes:

What "vicious cycle" is he talking about? The one where MS and Apple go back and forth being The World's Most Valuable Company?

As we have seen, so-called "A.I." is nothing but a toy for consumers to play with. Much like "smart speakers" were 5 years ago. It is shaping up to be the biggest hype - and biggest dud - since Y2K.

Also, Apple does not "race to catch up" to anyone. They sit back and watch, to see if "the new thing" is worthwhile and/or the technology matures. Like dual screen/folding screen phones.

"A.I." in its current state is not worth rushing into. A smart company would wait until the dust - not to mention the lawsuits - settles. Meanwhile, use it for small things like photo editing. Generating huge amounts of meaningless Word Salad from copyrighted works and fake nude pictures of celebrities is only interesting to lawyers.
You're undermining this AI wave severely. It's nothing like the smart speaker fud. Like it or not but google seriously upper hand at being the most used search engine, browser and mobile OS, on top of that google indulges in such deals, if this was Microsoft they'd already be investigated for being anti competitive.

people seem to have soft spot for google for some reason as if they're some nice company
 
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fdruid

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You're undermining this AI wave severely. It's nothing like the smart speaker fud. Like it or not but google seriously upper hand at being the most used search engine, browser and mobile OS, on top of that google indulges in such deals, if this was Microsoft they'd already be investigated for being anti competitive.

people seem to have soft spot for google for some reason as if they're some nice company

MS would be crucified for less, and Google always gets out too easily, agreed.
 
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Jcmg62

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Anyone who's been following the Microsoft (windows mobile), Apple, Google saga for long enough will know that there's only one way Microsoft can ever hope to be relevant in the mobile space....build a fantastic surface phone, stick a rock solid windows mobile OS on it, pack it with exclusive features, make it universally available, and, most importantly, commit to supporting it for decades.

None of this "oh, we're updating the OS and leaving your one year old phone behind" BS

None of this "we're going to build better apps and services for Apple/Google and maybe we'll make them available for our own OS one day... Maybe" BS

Build your device. Put windows on it. Support the hell out of it. Forever.

Google and Apple have a big head start, but the EU is changing the digital landscape. They're forcing platforms tk open. App stores are going to start popping up everywhere.

Microsoft can take advantage of that, but they have to get behind their own hardware and software beliefs before they can expect consumers to support them.
 

fjtorres5591

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"The distribution advantage Google has today doesn’t go away; in fact, if anything, I worry a lot that – even in spite of my enthusiasm that there is a new angle with A.I., this vicious cycle that I’m trapped in could get even more vicious,"

Drama much? :rolleyes:

What "vicious cycle" is he talking about? The one where MS and Apple go back and forth being The World's Most Valuable Company?

As we have seen, so-called "A.I." is nothing but a toy for consumers to play with. Much like "smart speakers" were 5 years ago. It is shaping up to be the biggest hype - and biggest dud - since Y2K.

Also, Apple does not "race to catch up" to anyone. They sit back and watch, to see if "the new thing" is worthwhile and/or the technology matures. Like dual screen/folding screen phones.

"A.I." in its current state is not worth rushing into. A smart company would wait until the dust - not to mention the lawsuits - settles. Meanwhile, use it for small things like photo editing. Generating huge amounts of meaningless Word Salad from copyrighted works and fake nude pictures of celebrities is only interesting to lawyers.
Two points: You're right that Apple has long suceeded without being first. At *anything*. That worked...for a while. But not recently. How did waiting for somebody else proving a market first worked for Apple on ebooks? SmartTVs, Electric Vehicles? Want to bet of their VR product? (Have you heard of the Ray Ban META? That is where Apple should have gone.)

As to "AI", why would Apple be cozying up to Google if they didn't feel the need to gain access somebody's mature LLM tech? Because they have none of their own. The market has been proven and the market is not about consumer Chatbots. That is the loss leader for the real " AI" cash cows and Apple has *nothing* to offer *today* for that market. Just as they have nothing for the Cloud Computing market they missed out on.

As is, Apple going after any form of "AI" is just like the way they went after ebooks: trying to catch up to a market they missed on and hoping they're not too late to "show the flag". But it really doesn't matter. They can trot whatever chatbot they want and it will never get them into the real money: the enterprise businesses.

Let them do whatever they think necessary. It'll keep the faithful happy. It won't do a thing for their market share in computers, tablets, or even phones. But it won't matter beyond the faithful.

That said, they really should know better than to cozy up to Google's soon to be renamed two time loser of a Me2 product. (And what does that say about Apple's inhouse staff that is only now being shifted from EV cars to chatbots? Or Darwin, Ince, the canadian AI startup they just bought?) Not much of a vote of confidence on the inhouse guys.

There are a couple of promising UK and French startups that are coming up with nice twists on the core Transformer tech underneath LLMs. Or maybe the japanese or Koreans. They won't come as cheap as SIRI, INC back in the day but they need a boost and fast. Can't cheap out now.

For now, just live and let die.
Apple has waaayy bigger problems on the horizon than chatbots.
(Hint: China.)
 

fjtorres5591

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Smartphones are a mature, saturated business.
The reason they keep pimping new models every year is to get people to replace perfectly useful phones.
Thing is, the phone model itself is at risk from other wearable technologies.
Apple got into watches precisely for this.
But with LLM, phones will lose share to standalone watches, glasses, and rings, badges and pendants.

This is *not* the time to get into phones.
This is the time to go where phones can't.
This is the time to look past last decade's consumer tech and get started on the markets of the future.

In case you folks haven't noticed, everything Nadella has been doing from Nuance to ABK to ORKA is about future markets, not the one they missed out on. This time he wants MS to be ahead of the curve.

In case anybody doubts it, look up Microsoft's AI deals with SIEMENS and ROCKWELL, to start with. Apple and Google are in the rear view mirror.
 

Ron-F

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Microsoft is not in the conversation with Apple because they don’t have anything to offer. Apple seems to be inclined to use their own short models in the phone and rely in a third party large model in the server. Apple is negotiating with Google over Gemini and is probably talking to OpenAI regarding ChatGTP. Microsoft doesn’t own a competing product.
 

fjtorres5591

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Microsoft is not in the conversation with Apple because they don’t have anything to offer. Apple seems to be inclined to use their own short models in the phone and rely in a third party large model in the server. Apple is negotiating with Google over Gemini and is probably talking to OpenAI regarding ChatGTP. Microsoft doesn’t own a competing product.
If you mean chztbots, Microsoft doesn't need a competing product. They get all they need from OpenAI on that front. On the SLM and *embedded* model side they are well set with inhouse tools: you do know Azure alone carries around a dozen different models, right? And Nuance and MS Research have their own proprietry options on the side.

This obsession with the 'bots is obscuring the fact that LLM is not a product but a *feature* and in many cases an optional add-on. Also that LLMs and variants aren't the only Transformer AI out there and Transformer approaches aren't the only ath forward. There are dozens of startups looking to strie gold and ten be bought up, dot-com era style. OpenAI, Google, and Meta are far from the only sources of useful tools. And tools is what LLMs are. MS is a tools comany at their core, Apple isn't; they're product focused and *consumer* product focused. That makes them mostly irrelevant in the *real* AI race. In the real race, they are consumers of the tools, not creators. (Think AAA game developets and UNREAL and the other engines.)

What "AI" is, though, is a very young, very immature, very EXPENSIVE tech to deploy. Tool creators are the bottleneck. It is still early in the game but Apple got caught zigging (VR and EVs) just as the market zagged (Apple Needs to be terified of Ray Ban. Seriously.) The future is not looking the way they thought it would.
 

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