Buyer beware: Surface Pro 3 throttling: i7/i5 = i3 in speed with sustained load.

[JamesPTao]

Not a computer. Tablet. Understand that your desires are niche, and the vast majority of users would rather their device run cooler, quieter and longer than have chrome render that web page 10ms faster. Also notice the form factor is ridiculous for the specs- if it didn't throttle half of them would be dead in 6 months. How is that going to look? This is not somehow a terrible device because of these design decisions- you are simply not the target audience.

Would it be nice if you could be certain that it would run at full power with adequate cooling provided while plugged in? Certainly. Would it be nice to tweak the throttle rate and what temperature it starts at? I don't see how this wouldn't void the warranty but yeah. Does Microsoft owe you these tools? No.

Ot actually is a computer. They are designated tablet PCs for a reason, but i wholeheartedly agree with everything you say. What the writer you're responding to doesn't realize is all those chips throttle depending on temp. On desktop or PC. If you want one that does so less then buy a Zeon class chip (which isn't available for laptops. Its funny when people find something out about a product and ***** not realizing all of its competitors do the same thing, they just didn't know it.

 

[JamesPTao]

Exactly, the i5/i7 even throttle playing Minecraft, nevermind professional applications like DAW software.

I can see the options under $1000 being a good buy for consumer use, the higher end models I think are more marketing than they are performance. And the marketing is working, I see a lot of people buying $1299+ options despite the fact that once you put that power to heavy use you get i3 performance. I would rather buy a 799 surface pro 3 now (or wait entirely), then spend big bucks when the real deal comes out (surface w/ broadwell).

Thread is just here to inform those trying to decide whether its worth it spending big bucks for the high end configurations - in my and several others opinion, no. What is the point of paying for a high end CPU if it performs like the low end CPU once its actually put to real work (as opposed to web surfing and office, which the cheaper i3 can handle fine)?

If Microsoft wants the Surface Pro 3 to be taken seriously by creative professionals which they appear to be aiming at, they either need to release firmware that greatly reduces the throttling or release a Broadwell refresh ASAP. Pro software where timing is critical does not respond well to up-down-up-down CPU clocking Ping-Pong. Again, note that Surface Pro 2 does not suffer from these issues.

You are paying for the small form factor. With that their are always sacrifices namely heat disapation. That is true in any slim form factor tablet PC or laptop. If you want a beast tablet PC buy a hgh end fujitsu, or in laptops a high end Lenovo. The surface does great for what it is and competes well for what it is. If you need more than sacrifice the size and get a bigger laptop that is optimized for performance.

 

[Ruined]

You are paying for the small form factor. With that their are always sacrifices namely heat disapation. That is true in any slim form factor tablet PC or laptop. If you want a beast tablet PC buy a hgh end fujitsu, or in laptops a high end Lenovo. The surface does great for what it is and competes well for what it is. If you need more than sacrifice the size and get a bigger laptop that is optimized for performance.

The Surface Pro 2 did it without such dramatic throttling problems and similar CPUs, why can't the Surface Pro 3? Answer: Surface Pro 3 cooling design is completely inadequate for the heat output. The Surface Pro 3 is supposed to be a complete laptop replacement, not an iPad replacement according to Microsoft; I have not seen laptops that rely so heavily on CPU throttling to keep cool rather than a proper cooling solution in the first place. And, if all is needed is modest power for less demanding applications then Microsoft should have just put a much cooler running and cheaper 64bit Intel Atom Bay Trail w/ 4gb ram in SP3 and charge people $649 for it, rather than putting in ultrabook CPUs that repeatedly overheat and can't deliver on the power people pay over $1000 for.

Sounds like people are making excuses for what appears to be an inadequate cooling design (or poor CPU choice) in the Surface Pro 3.

 

[nickluck]

The Surface Pro 2 did it without such dramatic throttling problems and similar CPUs, why can't the Surface Pro 3? Answer: Surface Pro 3 cooling design is completely inadequate for the heat output. The Surface Pro 3 is supposed to be a complete laptop replacement, not an iPad replacement according to Microsoft; I have not seen laptops that rely so heavily on CPU throttling to keep cool rather than a proper cooling solution in the first place. And, if all is needed is modest power for less demanding applications then Microsoft should have just put a much cooler running and cheaper 64bit Intel Atom Bay Trail w/ 4gb ram in SP3 and charge people $649 for it, rather than putting in ultrabook CPUs that repeatedly overheat and can't deliver on the power people pay over $1000 for.

Sounds like people are making excuses for what appears to be an inadequate cooling design (or poor CPU choice) in the Surface Pro 3.

Well, I guess you're right.
I think people which demand constant high speed from their laptop should avoid this (I think of people doing video editing, for example). I believe you should look somewhere else for something better (or return this if you already bought). Luckily this is completely free option from Microsoft.
But this is still a good choice for people like me, who do development and occasional photo editing.

 

[nasellok]

I don't know people........ive opened and moved around some fairly large Revit Models, and haven't had any issues with throttling. That being said, its not that I don't believe you. Im not really using it for gaming, so maybe that's the issue. Either way, I'll probably keep it and sell it when the SP4 comes out, or maybe it will miraculously break 23 months into my warranty.....hehe.

 

[anon(4054009)]

Well, I guess you're right.
I think people which demand constant high speed from their laptop should avoid this (I think of people doing video editing, for example). I believe you should look somewhere else for something better (or return this if you already bought). Luckily this is completely free option from Microsoft.
But this is still a good choice for people like me, who do development and occasional photo editing.

I agree that the buyers who research tend to buy the right tool for the job. The rest seem to spend their time whining on the internet about perceived design failures. Will the next model be better, most likely.

 

[Ruined]

I agree that the buyers who research tend to buy the right tool for the job. The rest seem to spend their time whining on the internet about perceived design failures. Will the next model be better, most likely.

Next model? The previous model - this product's tablet predecessor Surface Pro 2 - did the same tasks just fine that SP3 chokes on using exactly the same i5 4300u CPU. Hence, the easily provable concept that the SP3's cooling design is badly designed or poorly thought out at the minimum. Most people do not expect the new iteration of a product to actually be less capable in computing power than the old iteration. This was further obscured as many reviewers failed to put the Surface Pro 3 through any serious paces prior to publishing their reviews and hence failed to report the device's sustained load shortcomings.

Surface Pro 3 could be the tool for the job, if the cooling design was adequate like Surface Pro 2 - obviously its not for CPU intensive applications.

 

[Mike Gibson]

You have to expect throttling given the tiny dimensions of the SP3 and the horsepower of the enclosed CPU. I would be more worried about the effects of thermal cycling on the SP3's PCB (causing solder or trace gaps, which would kill the device) more than the throttling. But hey, I'm an old, paranoid EE type.

 

[Ruined]

You have to expect throttling given the tiny dimensions of the SP3 and the horsepower of the enclosed CPU. I would be more worried about the effects of thermal cycling on the SP3's PCB (causing solder or trace gaps, which would kill the device) more than the throttling. But hey, I'm an old, paranoid EE type.

So, given all of the esoteric air cooling methods and hsf designs out there, you truly believe that it is impossible to keep the i5 4300u cool enough in sp3 to avoid the throttling that degrades performance far below sp2 levels? I understand sp3 is not as thick as sp2, but it is also significantly taller.... If cooling was such an issue, why only one fan in sp3? Does not make much sense to me.

 

[WillysJeepMan]

So, given all of the esoteric air cooling methods and hsf designs out there, you truly believe that it is impossible to keep the i5 4300u cool enough in sp3 to avoid the throttling that degrades performance far below sp2 levels? I understand sp3 is not as thick as sp2, but it is also significantly taller.... If cooling was such an issue, why only one fan in sp3? Does not make much sense to me.

Why only one fan? Because fan noise was an issue with the previous gen Pro models (and probably there wasn't room for a 2nd one). Panay made such a big deal about the "cooling technology" in the SP3 and was pretty squirrely in his wording regarding the fan... so much so that there were quite a few questions/comments during the live-chat asking if the SP3 actually had a fan at all.

I think for those who want a Surface but have performance as a higher priority than thinness and lightness, then the Surface Pro 2 looks to be a better option.

 

[anon(5348413)]

Not a computer. Tablet. Understand that your desires are niche, and the vast majority of users would rather their device run cooler, quieter and longer than have chrome render that web page 10ms faster. Also notice the form factor is ridiculous for the specs- if it didn't throttle half of them would be dead in 6 months. How is that going to look? This is not somehow a terrible device because of these design decisions- you are simply not the target audience.

Would it be nice if you could be certain that it would run at full power with adequate cooling provided while plugged in? Certainly. Would it be nice to tweak the throttle rate and what temperature it starts at? I don't see how this wouldn't void the warranty but yeah. Does Microsoft owe you these tools? No.

Guest what a tablet is? It's a computer! Not only is it by definition a computer, it's marketed as a Laptop replacement. I've never had a laptop throttle down due to heat issues either. And if I heard said laptop could throttle down because of heat, it wouldn't be purchased by me. If your form factor can't handle the processor, don't put it in. Their are cooler alternatives. Don't put in an I5/i7 if it can't be used to it's full advertised potential. People are experiencing these issues while playing very simple games, stuck processes and installing patches/updates. Hardly niche. Yes, Microsoft owes me a device that will perform its advertised function. The entire Surface site touts POWER POWER POWER! Gaming, video, entertainment. Processing power! Multitasking!

"Surface Pro 3 is perfect for HD movies, music, and a great gaming experience." Not so much when it's running at half it's speed, too hot to sit in your lap and too loud to hear over the fan. Forget using it like a tablet late at night with that thing screaming while someone next to you tries to sleep. But they promised me a great gaming experience!

 

[anon(4054009)]

Guest what a tablet is? It's a computer! Not only is it by definition a computer, it's marketed as a Laptop replacement. I've never had a laptop throttle down due to heat issues either. And if I heard said laptop could throttle down because of heat, it wouldn't be purchased by me. If your form factor can't handle the processor, don't put it in. Their are cooler alternatives. Don't put in an I5/i7 if it can't be used to it's full advertised potential. People are experiencing these issues while playing very simple games, stuck processes and installing patches/updates. Hardly niche. Yes, Microsoft owes me a device that will perform its advertised function. The entire Surface site touts POWER POWER POWER! Gaming, video, entertainment. Processing power! Multitasking!

"Surface Pro 3 is perfect for HD movies, music, and a great gaming experience." Not so much when it's running at half it's speed, too hot to sit in your lap and too loud to hear over the fan. Forget using it like a tablet late at night with that thing screaming while someone next to you tries to sleep. But they promised me a great gaming experience!

Love the drama, ever had a Macbook Pro on your lap?

 

[link68759]

Guest what a tablet is? It's a computer! Not only is it by definition a computer, it's marketed as a Laptop replacement. I've never had a laptop throttle down due to heat issues either. And if I heard said laptop could throttle down because of heat, it wouldn't be purchased by me. If your form factor can't handle the processor, don't put it in. Their are cooler alternatives. Don't put in an I5/i7 if it can't be used to it's full advertised potential. People are experiencing these issues while playing very simple games, stuck processes and installing patches/updates. Hardly niche.

No one calls a tablet a computer. No sane person expects a tablet (key point of tablets: Mobile) to perform like the more conventional / less mobile computers

If you've never had a laptop throttle and/or overheat, you're either very young (I think you are) or very lucky.

If you don't think running up against a tablet's specs is niche, I suggest you take a course in statistics.

 

[Ruined]

No one calls a tablet a computer. No sane person expects a tablet (key point of tablets: Mobile) to perform like the more conventional / less mobile computers

If you've never had a laptop throttle and/or overheat, you're either very young (I think you are) or very lucky.

If you don't think running up against a tablet's specs is niche, I suggest you take a course in statistics.

I've been using PCs since DOS 3.x and the only times I've have a laptop throttle to 50% of its normal performance was:
A) When the laptop's cooling design was obviously inadequate (the one Dell Inspiron I had like this was returned, similar to my former SP3 i5/256gb)
B) When the laptop was used improperly (vent covers blocked, or placed on a rug)
C) When the laptop was broken
I have not had a well designed laptop throttle as significantly as SP3, and I think it is poor engineering to depend on the CPU's throttling to 50% of its normal performance like Surface Pro 3 as a "cooling solution."

I do understand people are excited about the SP3's form factor, but I see far too much excuse making due to that excitement in my opinion; there is very simple logic here that cannot be evaded:

1. If the argument is that a tablet cannot perform like a laptop... this is false as proved by the Surface Pro 2 Tablet with same i5-4300u CPU, which did perform like a laptop; Surface Pro 3's cooling solution is inadequate for the CPUs Microsoft selected - this results in severe throttling that was not present even remotely close to this extent with the same i5-4300u CPU on the older Surface Pro 2. The Surface Pro 2 offered consistent performance, unlike the Surface Pro 3.

2. If the argument is that the thinner design of SP3 (vs SP2) is a tradeoff that results in it being simply impossible to cool Haswell Ultrabook CPUs like SP2 did... then why is Microsoft offering these CPUs with SP3? There were other x86 options available at the time SP3 was launched such as Intel Atom Bay Trail, and Microsoft could have launched with MSRP $699 Intel Atom Bay Trail 64gb/4gb, $849 i3 Haswell 128gb/4gb, and $999 i3 Haswell 128gb/8gb - the latter for those that use a slightly intensive application like Photoshop. Then, later this year add MSRP $1299+ i5/i7 Broadwell 256-512gb/8gb designs for those that need more performance, as Broadwell will likely run efficient/cool enough for SP3 to manage without extreme throttling. You know, instead of charging people for mid/high end i5/i7 CPUs that only work for a few minutes before throttling to the speed of a low end CPU; while I appreciate marketing and capitalism, this practice just seems a bit dishonest.

3. If the argument is SP3 is not as good as a laptop but good enough given the form factor... I do appreciate that the current SP3 design works fine for some, but I do not see how these same individuals would not be similarly served by an i3 or even a Atom Bay Trail processor. An Intel Atom Bay Trail can handle everything available in the Windows 8 Store as well as Office perfectly fine, and if you want to go a step further with something a bit more intensive like Photoshop the i3 works great for this. If your programs are not CPU hungry or light on the CPU, then either of these CPUs will do the job; if they are CPU hungry, there is a good chance your i5/i7 SP3 will be throttled down to i3 levels anyway. Thus the value proposition for current SP3 i5/i7 Haswell is extremely poor.

I do think Surface Pro 3 is a great concept and I really like the ergonomics of it, but I disagree with Microsoft going ahead and putting in powerful CPUs that obviously overwhelm the SP3's cooling solution in short order - then charging people much more for these flawed designs. Either the cooling solution should be beefed up for the i5/i7 or different CPUs should have been selected altogether. I respect the opinions of others on the topic but I do not think the above 3 points should be dismissed, either.

 

[anon(4054009)]

Can't believe you are still pounding away about this. Normally I would quote, but your novel was too long. It's pretty simple, many buy and use/like, some buy/use doesn't work for them, return and wait for next generation. Whenever I come across someone so invested in pushing a message on a board, I think about the movie "The blues brothers".
You sir are on a mission from god. Please continue...

 

[Ruined]

Can't believe you are still pounding away about this. Normally I would quote, but your novel was too long. It's pretty simple, many buy and use/like, some buy/use doesn't work for them, return and wait for next generation. Whenever I come across someone so invested in pushing a message on a board, I think about the movie "The blues brothers".
You sir are on a mission from god. Please continue...

If SP4 has reasonable throttling more in line with SP2 (or sp3 is fixed via firmware) then the mission was worth it

Problem is I really love the new ergonomics of sp3 but I need something that at least matches sp2 in performance... Hopefully Broadwell will do it.

 

[garak0410]

I think it the Pro 3 works great for most things, including most professional work and the casual gaming.

I, however, don't think that anyone should get the Pro with their top priority for using the device to be heaving gaming and video editing, very processor-intensive compiling, or anything else that requires constant processor demanding. There are laptops much better suited to that with discrete graphic cards and plenty of ample cooling. Throttling really isn't that much of a surprise to much, much like other ultra-thin tablets and ultrabooks. There is a reason why gaming laptops and desktops are big with lots of fans.

Agreed which brings up the whole connumdrum again with the Surface...who and what is it for? And I say that as an owner of the Core i7, 512GB model who also has a tower PC at home (mainly for media serving) and an Alienware laptop with awesome specs for gaming and video editing. I really want my Surface Pro 3 to me by everything and to an extent, it is, as I do just have to have the best FPS on my games. But the heat it puts out is troubling at times.

 

[OHardy]

I bought my SP3 i5 ( I'm loving every bit of it) loaded up my MCSE CBT NUGGETS Tutorials & it's amazing how much easier I can create study notes with OneNote using my pen. My desktops both HOME & WORK do my virtual labs etc (the heavy work).

Occasionally the SP3 aids in my network administration when I'm away from my desk & I can say this is one nice device.

Stop knocking the SP3 !

 

[Trent Lanthier]

So I got my Corei7 yesterday got it all up and running over night installed xcom (I ran it on my Surface1 PRO) I ran it with LOW settings... and wow ... its sluggish .. WAY slower than my Surface1 Pro... (Which I gave my wife)

I'm used to the heat ... I have a desk fan that ran on my Surface 1 Pro to keep the fan quiet ... but I have to say ... I'm terribly disappointed I expected it to run a bit quicker I expect I'll be returning my surface 3 in the next couple of days I'm not paying 1600$ for something that doesn't run the casual games on low settings that my Surface 1 pro ran like a champ(on low settings).

I'm sure the Pen integration is better, I'm sure it has alot of better features ... has anyone tried xcom or civ 5 or any of those turn based games on the corei3 how does that perform?

 

[link68759]

I went to the MS store today to buy an SP3 but walked out with one of the Lenovo yoga things. I'm just not ready to give up the traditional keyboard hinge I guess.

If the touchpad on the hardcover keyboard for the surface wasn't so squished near the bottom I probably would have bought the SP3, keyboard and dock though.

I have 30 days to see if this Lenovo thing isn't a hunk of junk.

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